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Paul's Teaching on the Church
Zenit News Agency ^ | November 22, 2006 | Benedict XVI

Posted on 11/22/2006 6:44:22 PM PST by ELS

Paul's Teaching on the Church

"We Who Are Many Are One Body"

VATICAN CITY, NOV. 22, 2006 (Zenit.org).- Here is a translation of the address Benedict XVI gave at today's general audience in St. Peter's Square. The address focused on the Apostle Paul, particularly his teaching on the Church.

* * *

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

We complete today our encounters with the Apostle Paul, dedicating a last reflection to him. We cannot take leave of him, in fact, without taking into consideration one of the decisive components of his activity and one of the most important themes of his thought: the reality of the Church.

We must note first of all that his first contact with the person of Jesus took place through the testimony of the Christian community of Jerusalem. It was a stormy contact. On knowing the new group of believers, he became immediately its fierce persecutor. He himself appropriately acknowledges it three times in as many letters: "I persecuted the Church of God," he writes (1 Corinthians 15:9; Galatians 1:13; Philippians 3:6), virtually presenting his behavior as the worst crime.

History shows us that one reaches Christ normally through the Church! In a certain sense, it is what happened, as we were saying, also to Paul, who found the Church before finding Jesus. In his case, however, this contact was counterproductive; it did not cause adherence, but rather a violent rejection.

For Paul, adherence to the Church was propitiated by a direct intervention of Christ, who, revealing himself to Paul on the way to Damascus, identified himself with the Church and made Paul understand that to persecute the Church was to persecute him, the Lord.

In fact, the Risen One said to Paul, the persecutor of the Church: "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? (Acts 9:4). In persecuting the Church, he was persecuting Christ. Paul converted then, at the same time, to Christ and to the Church.

Thus one understands why the Church was so present in the thoughts, in the heart and in the activity of Paul. In the first place, it was present as he literally founded many Churches in the different cities where he went as evangelizer. When he speaks of his "anxiety for all the Churches" (2 Corinthians 11:28), he is thinking of the various Christian communities established from time to time in Galatia, Ionia, Macedonia and Achaia.

Some of those Churches also gave him worries and displeasures, as happened for example with the Churches of Galatia, which he saw "turning to a different gospel (Galatians 1:6), something which he opposed with spirited determination. Nevertheless, he felt bound to the communities he founded not in a cold and bureaucratic manner, but intensely and passionately.

Thus, for example, he describes the Philippians as "my brethren, whom I love and long for, my joy and crown" (4:1). At other times he compares the different communities to a letter of recommendation unique of its kind: "You yourselves are our letter of recommendation, written in your hearts, to be known and read by all men" (2 Corinthians 3:2). At other times he shows them in their encounters a true and proper sentiment not only of paternity but even of maternity, as when he turns to those he is addressing beseeching them as "My little children, with whom I am again in travail until Christ be formed in you!" (Galatians 4:19; cf. also 1 Corinthians 4:14-15; 1 Thessalonians 2:7-8).

In his letters, Paul also illustrates for us his doctrine on the Church as such. Well known is his original definition of the Church as "body of Christ," which we do not find in other Christian authors of the first century (cf. 1 Corinthians 12:27; Ephesians 4:12; 5:30; Colossians 1:24). We find the most profound root of this amazing designation of the Church in the sacrament of the body of Christ.

St. Paul says: "Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread" (1 Corinthians 10:17). In the Eucharist itself Christ gives us his body and makes us his body. In this connection, St. Paul says to the Galatians: "you are all one in Christ" (Galatians 3:28).

With all this Paul leads us to understand that not only is there a belonging of the Church to Christ, but also a certain form of equivalence and identification of the Church with Christ himself. It is from here, therefore, that the greatness and nobility of the Church derives, that is, of all of us who are part of it: Our being members of Christ, is almost as an extension of his personal presence in the world. And from here follows, naturally, our duty to really live in conformity with Christ.

From here derive also Paul's exhortations in regard to the several charisms which animate and structure the Christian community. They can all be referred back to a single source, which is the Spirit of the Father and the Son, knowing well that in the Church there is no one who is lacking them, because, as the Apostle writes, "To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good" (1 Corinthians 12:7).

What is important, however, is that all the charisms cooperate together for the building up of the community and that they not become instead a motive of laceration. To this end, Paul asks himself rhetorically: "Is Christ divided?" (1 Corinthians 1:13). He knows well and teaches us that it is necessary "to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call" (Ephesians 4:3-4).

Obviously, to underline the need for unity does not mean to hold that one must make ecclesial life uniform and flat according to one way of operating. Elsewhere Paul teaches "Do not quench the Spirit" (1 Thessalonians 5:19), namely, to generously make room for the unforeseeable dynamism of the charismatic manifestations of the Spirit, who is an always new source of energy and vitality.

But if there is a particularly important criterion for Paul it is mutual edification: "Let all things be done for edification" (1 Corinthians 14:26). Everything should concur to build the ecclesial fabric in an orderly way, not only without deadlocks, but also without flights or tears.

One of Paul's letters goes so far as to present the Church as the bride of Christ (cf. Ephesians 5:21-33). He thus takes up again a prophetic metaphor, which made of the people of Israel the spouse of God of the Covenant (cf. Hosea 2:4.21; Isaiah 54:5-8): He thus expresses to what point the relations are intimate between Christ and his Church, be it because she is the object of the most tender love on the part of her Lord, or because love must be mutual and we, in as much as members of the Church, must show him a passionate fidelity.

In conclusion, therefore, at stake is a relationship of communion: the relationship -- to call it in some way -- "vertical" between Jesus Christ and all of us, but also "horizontal" between all those who are distinguished in the world by the fact of "calling on the name of Jesus Christ, our Lord" (1 Corinthians 1:2).

This is our definition: We are part of those who call on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Thus we understand to what point we must desire the fulfillment of what Paul himself yearns for when writing to the Corinthians: "But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you" (1 Corinthians 14:24-25).

So should be our liturgical meetings. A non-Christian who enters one of our assemblies should be able to say at the end: "Truly God is with you." Let us ask the Lord that we might live in this way, in communion with Christ and in communion among ourselves.

[Translation by ZENIT]

[At the end of the Audience, the Holy Father greeted pilgrims in several languages. In English, he said:]

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

Continuing our reflections on the Apostle Paul, we now turn to his teaching on the Church. St. Paul's encounter with the risen Lord on the way to Damascus led him to understand that, in persecuting the Church, he was persecuting Christ himself. Paul was thus converted both to Christ and the Church. We can understand, then, why the Church plays so important a part in his thought and work.

Paul founded several Churches during his missionary journeys, and he demonstrated, through his letters and visits, a constant and lively "concern for all the Churches" (2 Corinthians 11:28). For Paul, the Church is truly the "Body of Christ," an extension, as it were, of the risen Lord's presence in the world, enlivened, structured and built up by the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

The Pauline image of the Church as the Bride of Christ (cf. Ephesians 5:21ff.) likewise stresses the relationship of fidelity and love uniting the Lord and all the members of his body. Through the prayers of St. Paul, may we enter ever more deeply into this mystery of communion, in order to testify more effectively to Christ's presence in our world.

My prayerful greetings go to all the English-speaking visitors and pilgrims present in today's audience, including the groups from England, Malta, Japan and the United States of America. I greet especially the Salvatorian Sisters, the American Friends of the Vatican Library, and the delegation from the Association of the Order of Malta. May your visit to the city of the Apostles Peter and Paul renew your love for Christ and his Church, and may God's blessing be upon you all.

[Original text: English]


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: generalaudience; popebenedictxvi; stpaul; vatican

Pope Benedict meets Iraqi Sunni Moslem tribal chief Sheikh Ali Ibrahim Al-Faris Hamad Al-Dulaimi (R) during his weekly general audience at the Vatican November 22, 2006. REUTERS/Osservatore Romano (VATICAN)

Pope Benedict XVI meets European Union External Relations Commissioner Benita Ferrero-Waldner (R) during his weekly general audience at the Vatican November 22, 2006. REUTERS/Osservatore Romano (VATICAN)

Pope Benedict XVI gives his weekly general audience in St Peter's square at the Vatican, November 15. The pope has put the finishing touches on the first volume of a work titled "Jesus of Nazareth" that will hit the bookstores in the spring, the Vatican has said.(AFP/File/Vincenzo Pinto)
1 posted on 11/22/2006 6:44:25 PM PST by ELS
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To: All
Paul of Tarsus: Be Imitators of Me, As I Am of Christ (October 25, 2006)
Paul of Tarsus, Continued (November 8, 2006)
Paul's Teaching on the Holy Spirit November 15, 2006
2 posted on 11/22/2006 6:45:10 PM PST by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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To: ELS
NOTE BY FR. LOMBARDI ON BENEDICT XVI'S FORTHCOMING BOOK

VATICAN CITY, NOV 22, 2006 (VIS) - Holy See Press Office Director Fr. Federico Lombardi S.J., has written a note concerning a forthcoming book by Benedict XVI, scheduled for publication in the spring of 2007. The title of the volume is: "Gesu di Nazareth. Dal Battesimo nel Giordano alla Trasfigurazione" (Jesus of Nazareth, From His Baptism in the Jordan to the Transfiguration).

The Vatican Publishing House, which holds the copyright on all the Pope's writings, has ceded the world rights for the translation, distribution and marketing of this book to the Rizzoli Publishing House.

"The fact that Benedict XVI has managed to complete the first part of his great book on Jesus, and that within a few months we will have it in our hands, is wonderful news," writes Fr. Lombardi in his note. "I find it extraordinary that despite the duties and concerns of the pontificate, he has managed to complete a work of such great academic and spiritual depth. He says he dedicated all his free time to the project; and this itself is a very significant indication of the importance and urgency the book has for him.

"With his habitual simplicity and humility, the Pope explains that this is not a 'work of Magisterium' but the fruit of his own research, and as such it can be freely discussed and criticized. This is a very important observation, because it makes clear that what he writes in the book in no way binds the research of exegetes and theologians. It is not a long encyclical on Jesus, but a personal presentation of the figure of Jesus by the theologian Joseph Ratzinger, who has been elected as Bishop of Rome."

In the book's preface, Fr. Lombardi's note says, the Holy Father "explains that in modern culture, and in many presentations of the figure of Jesus, the gap between the 'historical Jesus' and the 'Christ of the faith' has become ever wider. ... Joseph Ratzinger, taking into consideration all the achievements of modern research, aims to present the Jesus of the Gospels as the real 'historical Jesus,' as a sensible and convincing figure to Whom we can and must trustingly refer, and upon Whom we have good reason to base our faith and our Christian life. With his book, then, the Pope aims to offer a fundamental service to support the faith of his brothers and sisters, and he does so from the central element of the faith: Jesus Christ."

In the introduction to the book, Fr. Lombardi continues, "Jesus is presented to us as the new Moses, the new prophet who speaks with 'God face to face,' ... the Son, deeply united to the Father. If this essential aspect is overlooked, the figure of Jesus become contradictory and incomprehensible. With passion, Joseph Ratzinger speaks to us of Jesus' intimate union with the Father, and wishes to ensure that Jesus' disciples participate in this communion. It is, then, a great work of exegesis and theology, but also a great work of spirituality."

Fr. Lombardi concludes: "Recalling the profound impression and the spiritual fruits that, as a young man, I drew from reading Joseph Ratzinger's first work - 'Introduction to Christianity' - I am sure that this time too we will not be disappointed, but that both believers and all people truly disposed to understand more fully the figure of Jesus, will be immensely grateful to the Pope for his great witness as a thinker, scholar and man of faith, on the most essential point of the entire Christian faith."

OP/BOOK BENEDICT XVI/LOMBARDI VIS 061122 (600)

3 posted on 11/22/2006 6:49:16 PM PST by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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To: clockwise; bornacatholic; Miss Marple; bboop; PandaRosaMishima; Carolina; MillerCreek; ...
Weekly audience ping!

Please let me know if you want to be on or off this list.

May everyone have a happy Thanksgiving!

4 posted on 11/22/2006 6:51:24 PM PST by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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To: ELS
One of Paul's letters goes so far as to present the Church as the bride of Christ

The pope has erred...The church is not 'yet' the bride of Christ...The wedding in heaven has not yet taken place and the marriage supper of the Lamb has not taken place...

2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Not only did Paul NOT present the church as the bride of Christ, he (Paul) presents the church as the 'engaged' (espoused) virgin...

Some folks claim the wedding has taken place alreay which one would have to destroy and pervert a lot of scripture to achieve...And they act as tho they can still become part of the bride of Christ AFTER the wedding has taken place...Funny...

5 posted on 11/23/2006 2:35:14 AM PST by Iscool
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To: Iscool
The pope has erred...

Paul had to correct 'the First Pope', Peter, for having faulty theology.

Note: I do think the current Pope is great.

6 posted on 11/23/2006 3:57:36 AM PST by AmericaUnited
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To: Running On Empty

Marking


7 posted on 11/23/2006 4:24:53 AM PST by Running On Empty
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To: AmericaUnited
Hyam Maccoby, Revolution In Judaea: Jesus and the Jewish Resistance
8 posted on 11/23/2006 7:50:38 AM PST by onedoug
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To: Iscool
The pope has erred...

LOL! And what authority, knowledge, or experience do you have to make that claim? Thanks, but I'll take his word over yours.

God bless and have a happy Thanksgiving.

9 posted on 11/23/2006 8:53:01 AM PST by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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To: 2ndMostConservativeBrdMember; afraidfortherepublic; Alas; al_c; american colleen; annalex; ...


10 posted on 11/23/2006 9:20:15 AM PST by Coleus (Roe v. Wade and Endangered Species Act both passed in 1973, Murder Babies/save trees, geese, algae)
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To: ELS


I would like to be added to your ping list.

And perhaps a digression, but doesn't the Orthodox church teach the same doctrine on "One church?"


11 posted on 11/23/2006 10:15:58 AM PST by padre35 (We are surrounded, that simplifies our problem Chesty Puller)
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To: ELS
LOL! And what authority, knowledge, or experience do you have to make that claim?

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

That about covers it...

Thanks, but I'll take his word over yours.

Not my word...God's word...And I'll take that over any pope, any time any where...

12 posted on 11/23/2006 5:06:04 PM PST by Iscool
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To: Iscool
Not my word...God's word...

As interpreted by Iscool, whose interpretations have no authority.

-A8

13 posted on 11/23/2006 5:31:40 PM PST by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: adiaireton8
2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

So that verse and verses like it take some masterful interpreting, eh??? A twelve year old kid can read this and understand it...

As interpreted by Iscool, whose interpretations have no authority.

You're not being honest...I didn't interpret anything...I believed it as I read it...Did you, or your pope believe it as you read it??? Or did one of you interpret it to mean something else as warned against by the Apostle Peter???

There seems to be a lot of confusion in your church about this interpretation thing...

If you had a blue car and I called it red, that would be interpretation...Or dishonesty...We all know what a blue color is...

And we all know what espoused means...And we all understand that I may present you is a future event, if we have an eighth grade education, that is...

Of course this will not sway your position on the matter but tell us, what evidence do you have that your church is currently the Bride of Christ???

14 posted on 11/23/2006 7:13:52 PM PST by Iscool
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To: Iscool
The concept of 'bride' does not refer only to a woman who has already said her wedding vows. It also refers (by way of anticipation) to a woman who will shortly but has not yet said her wedding vows.

-A8

15 posted on 11/23/2006 7:43:27 PM PST by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: adiaireton8

It appears you received a good eighth grade education.


16 posted on 11/23/2006 8:13:49 PM PST by Titanites
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To: adiaireton8
The concept of 'bride' does not refer only to a woman who has already said her wedding vows. It also refers (by way of anticipation) to a woman who will shortly but has not yet said her wedding vows.

Now there's a private interpretation of 'Bride' if ever I saw one...

I know what a Bride is (and isn't)...The Apostle Paul knows what a Bride is and God knows what a Bride is...

And that's why Paul called the church the 'Espoused' chaste virgin instead of Bride...

There will be no Bride until the Espoused chaste virgin gets to heaven for the wedding ceremony and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb as referenced in the book of Revelation...There are millions of Christians who already know this fact...

17 posted on 11/23/2006 8:17:37 PM PST by Iscool
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To: Titanites
It appears you received a good eighth grade education.

That is an ad hominem.

-A8

18 posted on 11/23/2006 8:25:12 PM PST by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: Iscool
Why do you think the song "Here comes the Bride" is played while the bride is walking down the aisle (toward the altar)? Yours is the "private" and idiosyncractic conception of 'bride'.

-A8

19 posted on 11/23/2006 8:35:40 PM PST by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: Iscool
You are pulling a non sequitur. Why don't you try discussing the Scriptures that Benedict XVI was referring to (Ephesians 5:21-33) when you try to argue that he is wrong. You have given your interpretation of something Paul said in a different letter (2Co 11:2).

That is like saying an apple is not an orange. Benedict is a world class theologian. What are your credentials?

20 posted on 11/23/2006 8:59:53 PM PST by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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To: padre35
I would like to be added to your ping list.

You have been added.

21 posted on 11/23/2006 9:00:46 PM PST by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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To: Iscool; adiaireton8
I know what a Bride is (and isn't).

At a wedding there is usually a bride and a groom. They are referred to as bride and groom before they get married. After the wedding they are usually referred to as husband and wife.

22 posted on 11/23/2006 9:03:43 PM PST by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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To: Iscool
Now there's a private interpretation of 'Bride' if ever I saw one

Actually, his interpretation is in agreement with the dictionary.

I know what a Bride is (and isn't)...

Apparently not. I refer you to dictionary.com :

    bride [brahyd]
    –noun
    a newly married woman or a woman about to be married.

23 posted on 11/23/2006 9:09:40 PM PST by Titanites
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To: ELS
At a wedding there is usually a bride and a groom. They are referred to as bride and groom before they get married. After the wedding they are usually referred to as husband and wife

I don't disagree with that but because we do that in this day and age, doesn't mean Paul the Apostle went along with that concept...Besides, many a Bride never make it to the altar to become the wife...

I don't dispute at all that the church will become the Bride of Christ...God says so...But it has not happened yet...

So by making your church the Bride of Christ NOW, which the pope erroneously does, much scripture has to be destroyed and perverted to make it happen...You even have to claim that much of the scripture is 'spiritual' as opposed to literal...

There are 3 chapters in the book of Revelation identifying a world-wide religion that God will destroy...By your church making the unbiblical claim that it is now the Bride of Christ, it attempts to nullify those chapters that identify the 'false' church...

24 posted on 11/24/2006 2:50:26 AM PST by Iscool
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To: Titanites
I refer you to dictionary.com :
bride [brahyd]
–noun
a newly married woman or a woman about to be married.

Your church claims it has been the bride for about 2000 years...That's NOT about to get married...

About to get married is when you're in the church with the exit doors locked and you're starting the walk down the aisle...

And as the bible goes, the wedding will take place in heaven...When we get to heaven, in preparation for the wedding, THEN we can be called the Bride...

25 posted on 11/24/2006 2:58:53 AM PST by Iscool
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To: ELS
You have given your interpretation of something Paul said in a different letter (2Co 11:2).

Again, I didn't interpret anything...

What are your credentials?

Simple...I believe what I read in the Bible...

26 posted on 11/24/2006 3:15:35 AM PST by Iscool
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To: Iscool

The reference in 2 Corinthians is to the particular church in Corinth, which St. Paul fears is not ready for the nuptuals. This does not negate the typology of the Chruch as the Bride of Christ, but rather reinforces it.


27 posted on 11/24/2006 7:40:51 PM PST by annalex
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To: annalex
The reference in 2 Corinthians is to the particular church in Corinth, which St. Paul fears is not ready for the nuptuals.

Pure conjecture...The very same deficiency was ocurring in the church at Galatia...

2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

This does not negate the typology of the Chruch as the Bride of Christ, but rather reinforces it.

The 'church' is not a type of the Bride of Christ...The 'church' (individual believers, parts of the Body of Christ) IS the Bride of Christ, but NOT until later...

Paul knew the wedding wouldn't take place for 2000 years...Neither your Church, nor any Church will be the Bride of Christ, regardless of what the pope says...

The 'church' is individual believers in and outside of Churches thru-out the world that make up the Body of Christ...

The reference in 2 Corinthians is to the particular church in Corinth, which St. Paul fears is not ready for the nuptuals.

So you agree that at that time, the church at Corinth had not been to the Wedding...As I understand it, your church claims to be the present Bride of Christ...When did the Wedding take place??? When was the church at Corinth wed to Jesus??? Was there more than one Wedding???

The bible says the Wedding doesn't take place until ALL of the Christians are in heaven...

28 posted on 11/25/2006 3:20:38 AM PST by Iscool
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To: Iscool

Yes, the Church is the present Bride of Christ, and the Wedding will be the Second coming of Christ.


29 posted on 11/25/2006 5:30:58 PM PST by annalex
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To: Iscool; annalex
ELS: You have given your interpretation of something Paul said in a different letter (2Co 11:2).

Iscool: Again, I didn't interpret anything...

ELS: What are your credentials?

Iscool: Simple...I believe what I read in the Bible...

You can play word games if you insist, but that doesn't change the fact that when one reads words those words are processed in by the intellect into a concept or understanding of what was written. Every person is individual and arrives at an individual understanding or interpretation if you will. Just because you don't call it an interpretation doesn't change the truth of the matter.

Now, to get back to the main dispute. You claim that Benedict XVI doesn't understand what Paul said in Ephesians 5:21-33. Here are Benedict's words:

One of Paul's letters goes so far as to present the Church as the bride of Christ (cf. Ephesians 5:21-33). He thus takes up again a prophetic metaphor, which made of the people of Israel the spouse of God of the Covenant (cf. Hosea 2:4.21; Isaiah 54:5-8): He thus expresses to what point the relations are intimate between Christ and his Church, be it because she is the object of the most tender love on the part of her Lord, or because love must be mutual and we, in as much as members of the Church, must show him a passionate fidelity.
Just so we are on the same page, here is the passage from Ephesians under discussion:
21 Being subject one to another, in the fear of Christ. 22 Let women be subject to their husbands, as to the Lord: 23 Because the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the church. He is the saviour of his body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject to Christ, so also let the wives be to their husbands in all things. 25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himself up for it: 26 That he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life: 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle, or any; such thing; but that it should be holy, and without blemish. 28 So also ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife, loveth himself. 29 For no man ever hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, as also Christ doth the church: 30 Because we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they shall be two in one flesh. 32 This is a great sacrament; but I speak in Christ and in the church. 33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular love his wife as himself: and let the wife fear her husband.

If you want your assertion to be taken seriously, you will provide a substantial argument showing how the Pope has "erred." Merely saying that you don't read it the same way he does is not a substantial argument. Nor is referring to a different passage of Scripture that apparently contradicts the passage under discussion. One can find many apparently contradictory passages of Scripture if that is all one is looking for.

Your church claims it has been the bride for about 2000 years...That's NOT about to get married...

What is 2000 years compared to eternity? What is 2000 years to God who is outside of time, who is eternal? 2000 years is but an infinitesimal instant to God. That means that the Catholic Church most certainly can be and IS the bride of Christ.

30 posted on 11/25/2006 7:15:19 PM PST by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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To: annalex
Yes, the Church is the present Bride of Christ, and the Wedding will be the Second coming of Christ.

Both statements are unbiblical...And that's the problem...

No one cares what you guys teach each other out of your Religious Tradition...But then you tell each other that things like the Wedding is the 2nd coming of Christ...

The bible does not say that...In fact, the bible contradicts that...

And why is it important to that your church is not the present Bride of Christ??? Because by making your church the present Bride of Christ, you have 'wrested' the scripture in the bible that fortells of the coming Kingdom...

You are keeping your church members in the dark when it comes to the bible...Just as you kept them in the dark during the Dark Ages... Scripture was ordered to be in Latin only and accessible only to the clergy...

Show us all some scripture where the Wedding will be at the 2nd coming of Christ...

31 posted on 11/26/2006 2:51:45 AM PST by Iscool
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To: ELS
Merely saying that you don't read it the same way he does is not a substantial argument. Nor is referring to a different passage of Scripture that apparently contradicts the passage under discussion

We're not talking rocket science here...

2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

How many ways can YOU 'interpret' this verse??? Most of the bible is easy to read and understand...Believing it is the hard part, as many can attest to...

Paul did not present the church as the Bride of Christ in Eph. 5 because in Eph. 5, the church is not YET the Bride of Christ...The church is still a 'Chaste Virgin'...

The entire context of Eph. 5 is Christian conduct...Now that you are saved (without works), wake up out of your dead sleep and submit yourselves to God...Walk in the light...

There are no contradictory passages here...There are no contradictory passages anywhere in the bible...

At Corinth, Paul told the people that the church was espoused...And you can bet he preached the same sermon to Ephesus...

Paul at Ephesus told the church about Christian conduct, conduct for married folks...And you can bet he preaches THAT same message at Corinth and every other church he shows up at...There's no contradiction...

The only contradiction is that your church tries to take scripture out of the bible and make it line up with it's (your church) Tradition...

The Wedding takes place after the Christians are hauled off the earth and taken to heaven...The Marriage Supper of the Lamb then takes place, in heaven...

Jesus then returns with us (the Christians) at the 2nd coming of the Lord...You can read it in the book of Revelation, and I'm sure you have...But like I said, the problem is not in understanding it, but believing it...

32 posted on 11/26/2006 7:05:31 AM PST by Iscool
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To: Iscool
We're not talking rocket science here...

And we aren't talking about 2 Co 11:2, either.

Paul did not present the church as the Bride of Christ in Eph. 5 because in Eph. 5, the church is not YET the Bride of Christ...The church is still a 'Chaste Virgin'...

I would hope that every bride is a chaste virgin. The two are definitely not mutually exclusive.

There are no contradictory passages here...There are no contradictory passages anywhere in the bible...

I never said there were. However, you pitted 2 Co 11:2 against Ephesians 5:21-33 as if one contradicted the other.

At Corinth, Paul told the people that the church was espoused

"Espoused" is synonymous with "engaged" and "betrothed" which means that the Church is not yet married to Christ, but is His bride.

33 posted on 11/26/2006 5:39:27 PM PST by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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To: Iscool

Show me that you can intelligently discuss the scripture on the table, and I will pay more attention to your additional requests. Let us start by reviewing your idiotic "The pope has erred" in #5, -- in light of subsequent explanations are you ready to retract that?


34 posted on 11/27/2006 10:21:36 AM PST by annalex
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To: AmericaUnited
Paul had to correct 'the First Pope', Peter, for having faulty theology.

Actually, Paul corrected him for setting a bad example, not for having "faulty theology".

35 posted on 11/27/2006 10:43:21 AM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: Iscool
The pope has erred

Thank you, Pope 'Iscool'.

Is this a binding judgement, or is there appeal from your sovereign decisions, O mighty one?

36 posted on 11/27/2006 10:45:02 AM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: ELS
"Espoused" is synonymous with "engaged" and "betrothed" which means that the Church is not yet married to Christ, but is His bride.

Sorry, but a 'bride' is a new wife...I don't know of any female who considered herself a 'bride' at the moment she accepted a man's request for marriage...

37 posted on 11/27/2006 12:02:06 PM PST by Iscool
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To: Iscool
Sorry, but a 'bride' is a new wife

Short-term memory can be a wonderful thing.

    bride [brahyd]
    -noun
    a newly married woman or a woman about to be married.

38 posted on 11/27/2006 12:22:34 PM PST by Titanites
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To: Iscool
Just as you kept them in the dark during the Dark Ages... Scripture was ordered to be in Latin only and accessible only to the clergy...

This is pure fabrication. You are desperate to change the subject aren't you?

39 posted on 11/27/2006 12:26:58 PM PST by Titanites
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To: annalex
"The pope has erred" in #5, -- in light of subsequent explanations are you ready to retract that?

Explanations like betrothed means wife??? Or explanations that say 2000 years is but a flash in the pan to God, blah, blah, blah....I don't think so...

Show me that you can intelligently discuss the scripture on the table, and I will pay more attention to your additional requests.

Like you are an authority on the scripture??? If you're such an authority on the scripture explain how you can biblically bow down to a graven image...Or explain this verse:

Joh 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

So I should throw out the book of Revelation like you do so I can rely on your church to tell me that the church is 'now' the bride of Christ, and then discuss Eph. 5 in THAT context??? That's not the way bible believing Christians work...We let the word of God do the decipherin'...

40 posted on 11/27/2006 12:45:48 PM PST by Iscool
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To: Titanites

I can Google too...

Noun
S: (n) bride (a woman who has recently been married)
S: (n) Bridget, Saint Bridget, St. Bridget, Brigid, Saint Brigid, St. Brigid, Bride, Saint Bride, St. Bride (Irish abbess; a patron saint of Ireland (453-523))
S: (n) bride (a woman participant in her own marriage ceremony)
Return to WordNet Home


41 posted on 11/27/2006 12:49:48 PM PST by Iscool
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To: Iscool
I can Google too...

You should have scrolled up from the Thesaurus secttion and looked under the definition:

    A woman who is about to be married or has recently been married.

42 posted on 11/27/2006 12:58:03 PM PST by Titanites
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To: Iscool

The Catholic Church is authority on the scripture. I am not, other than I understand it as a Catholic is required to. Your authority to understand scripture is nil.


43 posted on 11/27/2006 4:13:42 PM PST by annalex
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