Posted on 12/06/2006 6:18:21 AM PST by NYer
Wasn't some other fella taken up into the clouds in the Old Testament?
I think he's supposed to come back sometime before Jesus comes again too.
Obviously it's possible for someone to "come from the dead." Even the other Lazarus in John 11 was raised by Jesus, fulfilling a raising of the dead.
The point is that the only other-dimensional communiques that I see are those from God's designated messengers--His angels.
I mean, if folks were consistent here, knowing that some of these angels (angels of children, for example), "always see the face of my Father," then why don't they advocate praying to angels as well as dead saints? Aren't they just as available, or to use Campion's earlier argument of "proximity" as being something extra special?
I mean, except for a passage or two in Revelation, we aren't privvy to a whole lot about whatever conversations God is having with deceased saints in heaven. On the other hand, we know a lot more from angels because they've taken that message from God and delivered it.
What about when Jesus is transfigured, with the disciples, and Moses and Elijah are there with them.
Matthew 17:3 specifically says that Moses and Elijah's conversation was with Jesus, not the disciples ("appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.")
Actually, you bringing them up makes my overall point. The person who prays primarily to dead saints instead of Jesus or the Father would be like a disciple on the scene of the transfiguration who would choose to "pray" to Moses and Elijah instead of Jesus or the Father--both of whom were also manifestly present.
I can just imagine the look of humble horror upon the face of Moses and Elijah, who would shrink at being targeted to be mediators in the presence of the Almighty God and Lord Jesus. Yet, that's what we earthly being do daily. The Lord Jesus and His Father is omnipresent; what do we do in response? We shirk His presence here and seek some dead saint up yonder.
Worse yet than even this would be a Peter who would not only want to build a "booth" or "tent" for all of them, but chip out a sign on wood to properly entitle these as a "Veneration Booth" or "Veneration Tent" (kind of like a "Veneration Coffin," doncha think?) to "honor, worship, revere, venerate" them in a proper way...as if Moses, Elijah, and Jesus was the new Trinity.
Mark explains the dullheadedness of Peter's "shelter" idea this way: "(He did not know what to say, they were so frightened.)" (Mark 9:6) That explains it.
Momma used to say; "ignorant is as ignorant does".
Pascal was a better scientist than Descartes. Disartes was only a mathematician; Pascal was very much into data. Look at the diversity of his scientific work. His theology is, I think, grounded in his science.
Are you condemning my supposed "speculation" in a speculatory manner? To quote someone else, "That doesn't seem like the sort of behavior either Jesus or Paul would endorse."
We do. I'm especially fond of St. Michael.
"Dead" saints? All saints are alive.
Stop being downright goofy. Do you understand that God/Jesus can say or do certain things that is OK for them to say/do, but if you say/do those same things, it's sin? This is not some deep, deep theological truth. God says "Worship Him". If you told people to worship you, you're sinning. What is so difficult to understand here?
I'm not theorizing about the behavior of abstract aggregates of people ("most people who pray to saints do thus and such"), no. You are.
So he was setting a bad example?
Isn't this a telling post and thread. It says a lot about you and even more about FR. If you take the accumulated criticism of the Roman Cahtolic Church seen regularly on FR and text edit to replace Catholic with Judaism you will see whole scale banning and thread pulling. What a shame.
In revelation we are told that the prayers of the saints are considered in the final judgement.
Another argument which applies to intercessory prayer in general, and thus isn't consistent with Biblical teaching.
Yes, dullheadedness. LOL! Something that was just blurted out in a moment of shock/amazement, is not usually "good stuff" to build a huge edifice on.
So now Jesus having a convo w/Moses & Elijah becomes our prototype for communicating w/dead folks? (Better let all the spiritists and channelers and mediums in on this so that they know the OT injunction of inquiring of dead spirits in place of the Lord is no longer applicable).
Next, you're going to tell us that because Jesus was 100% man (and of course He was, being also 100% God), that perhaps Jesus should have used your earlier "proximity" argument (being that He wasn't in heaven at the time) and should have more frequently made requests of heavenly residents Moses and Elijah to go intercede to the Father on his behalf.
I can just see the new murals on churches everywhere: Jesus bowing in prayer to Moses & Elijah, properly venerating them like we should all do.
No absolutely not! Jesus was showing each when of us just what to do after we get crucified and then resurrected from the dead. :)
I'll concede you that one. I supposed I should be using more what I said on another post: "Other-dimension"
No, what you are saying is blasphemy. You are implying that Jesus was not both Man and God. But since you are no doubt so very fond of the non-Biblical theory of "sola scriptura," please show me in scripture where it indicates that Jesus was allowed to sin. But I'm interested, what other "sins" do you believe our Lord committed?
Thanks for making it clear that you worship a "savior" who called his closest disciples aside so he could set a bad example for them. Kind of sets Paul's "Imitate me as I imitate Christ" for a loop, doesn't it?
OT injunction of inquiring of dead spirits in place of the Lord is no longer applicable
And nobody's advocating that anyone "inquire of dead spirits in place of the Lord," so this is still a red herring. What part of "intercession is not necromancy" don't you understand?
perhaps Jesus should have used your earlier "proximity" argument (being that He wasn't in heaven at the time)
Jesus always had the fullness of the Beatific Vision, but, given that you appear to believe he went around setting bad examples for people, you probably don't believe that, either.
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