Posted on 12/06/2006 6:18:21 AM PST by NYer
Yes. It is denied and it is the underlying disagreement of most of the arguments here.
A more profitable discussion would result in focusing on this doctrine and what the Protestant version is or rather versions are.
thanks for your post..
bumpus ad summum
.
My point was simply that the age of a practice or idea has nothing to do with its truth. Heresies began in NT times. That's old. As you observed, it goes back even to the Garden.
The only issue, for the Christian, is whether the practice is Biblical.
I think the point of this article was lost on a great many people. ARCHEOLOGISTS (who happen to work for the Vatican, but why wouldn't they when you consider that a great many sites that have archeological interest in Italy are owned by the Catholic Church) discovered what they believe to be the tomb of the Apostle Paul. The historical belief has always been that Paul was buried on this site, which is one reason that churches have been built there (granted the first real church probably was not built until a couple hundred years after Paul's martyrdom, but we need to remember that Christians had to meet in secret because of Roman persecution -- THEY COULDN'T BUILD "REAL" CHURCHES). So these archeologists (not theologians) believe that this is quite possibly the tomb of Paul, this is a major HISTORICAL discovery that also happens to have religious significance. And as you noted, while we accept things on faith, proof that events we hold to be true really happened makes it more difficult for the naysayers.
There are a great many threads here where it makes logical sense to debate the theological tenets of Catholicism and Protestantism, but why should this be one of them. This is significant for all Christians, Paul's martyrdom in Rome is something upon which there has NEVER BEEN DISAGREEMENT. For some to come into a thread and turn it into a theological debate when the thread HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THEOLOGY is both petty and in complete contrast to Christ's command that we love one another.
give a defense of our faith.
They don't sound certain to me that this is the right spot, anyway. They are certain of something that dated back to 390 AD.
They're not certain of what they're certain of.
Sounds like an earlier commission dug someone up, placed it in a box, and called it Paul. Now they're certain they've got that box.
Not jack-in-a-box; the island of misfit toys...they've got Charlie-in-a-box.
Your post is spot on, but I fear it will be lost to many on this thread.
But what do I know...I'm just a Mary-worshipping idolator ;)
Good points, as always :-)
Here is another popular tourist attraction in Wittenberg, Germany:
It's also interesting how many statues there are in the Wittenberg Cathedral and how it certainly appears that people are "honoring" Luther's tomb (or else the flowers have been there for a long time).
I posted some pictures of a different tomb in 411, the inscription is in Latin and it's in a cathedral that's full of statues and stained glass, it must be one of those sites that heretical Catholic idolators go and worship dead people.
It would only need to be biblical if one assumes that Holy Scripture alone is the source of Christian doctrine). [As you know Catholics and Orthodox Christians beleive that both Holy Tradition and Holy Scripture are the sources of doctrine, and that both are preserved through the Holy Spirit].
That said nothing in Holy Tradition can contradict Holy Scripture, and vice versa. You may find individuals in the Catholic and Orthodox churches who are unclear of the church's doctrine and profess what are misinterpretations of the doctrine of the church, however the canon of the doctrine in Holy Tradition does not contradict Holy Scripture. (Your mileage on that may vary slightly with the Roman church which has indeed made some innovations which could be considered a deviation from the doctrine of the Apostolic church, but that's a debate for a different time and place)
I have no doubt that venerating icons, and relics took place in the very same churches St Paul himself began, though one must understand that when venerating these Catholic and Orthodox Christians are not praying to or revering the physical objects, but the efforts and struggles of the Saint involved, hoping to commit themselves in the same way the saints did to the faith.
Can't you just hear the objections coming: We don't know that's Luther's tomb because he died 460 years ago. For all we know that's just Charlie-in-a-box.
And there is even a STATUE of a man PRAYING TO A STATUE! The horror!
No, no, no...didn't you get the memo? We RC's are so good at brainwashing folks into worshipping dead people that we tricked the Protestants into building these sites. If you didn't get your decoder ring to read that memo, just email the Vatican and they'll send you one! This post will self-destruct in 30 seconds...
Honoring the servant's of Christ in a church? Why they should rip all those statues out and fill the church with statues and tomb's of their secular statesman. But wait, that would be the same thing.
I think it is generally held by historians that by ther mid secnd century, Christians were making pilgrimages to visit the tombs of Peter and Paul.
I think that many unbelievers better understand the practice of cherishing relics than you imagine. Look at the cult of Elvis. Protestantism has got so dualistic that they have forgotten Paul once compared the human body with a temple. Luckily when Fundamentalists are not wearing their iconoclastic hats, they actually remember the doctrine of the Resurrection of the Dead.
I don't need to stare at dead bodies to remember the Resurrection of the Dead. I confess it every Sunday.
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