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What happened to Joseph the father of Jesus
All About Jesus ^

Posted on 12/11/2006 6:29:15 AM PST by xzins

What happened to Joseph the father of Jesus

We know very little about the years of Jesus prior to His public ministry. The gospels are without notation of any childhood events beyond Christ's birth except one reference that is found in Luke. It is the very last time that Joseph, the adoptive father of Jesus, is ever mentioned.

Luke 2:41 reads: "Every year his parents went to Jerusalem for the Feast of the Passover. When he was twelve years old, they went up to the Feast, according to the custom. After the Feast was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends. When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, 'Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you.' 'Why were you searching for me?' he asked. 'Didn't you know I had to be in my Father's house?' But they did not understand what he was saying to them. Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them. But his mother treasured all these things in her heart. And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men."

It is supposed that Joseph, the father of Jesus, died during the quiet years of Jesus' life. We do know that he trained Jesus in his trade, as that of a carpenter. He do know that Joseph and Mary had children after Jesus was born: James, Joses, Simon, and others.

Perhaps the cause or timing of his death is not nearly as important as the strength of character he displayed. In first hearing about Mary's pregnancy, Joseph did not want to subject Mary to public scorn. After hearing from the angel who confirmed Mary's incredulous story, Joseph obediently accepted the role as surrogate father for the baby Jesus, the Christ child. Matthew 1:24-25 says, "When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus."

The last reference about Joseph in Luke confirms that Joseph was a devout follower of the customs of his religion with his observance of Passover. It implies that Joseph made certain of good spiritual training for the children in his family. Joseph proved his integrity and willingness to be obedient to God's direction and guidance.


TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: christmas; joseph; mary; siblings
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There are passages of scripture that include lists of family words. These words in lists demonstrate that there are words that can be used for "brother" or "cousin." This author says that Mary and Joseph had other children. Some claim that these "brothers" were actually "cousins." These verses below include BOTH the words for brothers and cousins. They draw a distinction between "brother and cousin" and demonstrate that a distinction in words is possible. The word "suggenes" is translated "kindred, kinfolk, cousin." The word adelphoi is translated "brother."

In short, it is likely that Mary & Joseph had other children.

Lu 1:36 And, behold, thy cousin (SUGGENES) Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

Luke 14:12 And he said also to him who did call him, `When thou mayest make a dinner or a supper, be not calling thy friends, nor thy brethren, nor thy kindred, nor rich neighbours, lest they may also call thee again, and a recompense may come to thee; These lists demonstrate that words are being distinguished from one another. There is a distinction between a man's brothers and his "kindred, blood relatives, kinfolk, cousins." IN SHORT, the Protestant position MUST be admitted to be entirely tenable, and those who reject fellowship based on this difference are being difficult with other Christians."

Lu 21:16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

Mr 6:4 But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin (SUGGENES), and in his own house. Note the distinction Jesus draws between "kin (SUGGENES" and "own household." They knew the difference between cousins and brothers.

Mt 13:55 - Is this not the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses, Simon, and Judas?

Mt 12:46 - While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him.

Mt 12:49 - And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, "Here are My mother and My brothers! This is a very interesting passage in that Jesus intentionally distinguishes between these "fellowship brothers" and the "brothers associated with Mary."

Mr 6:3 - Is this not the carpenter, the Son of Mary, and brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon? And are not His sisters here with us?" And they were offended at Him.

1 posted on 12/11/2006 6:29:19 AM PST by xzins
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To: Forest Keeper; HarleyD; P-Marlowe; blue-duncan; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; Corin Stormhands; ...

Ping


2 posted on 12/11/2006 6:30:29 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: xzins
Joseph and Mary had children after Jesus was born: James, Joses, Simon, and others.

Better put on that flame-proof suit!

3 posted on 12/11/2006 6:37:47 AM PST by Enosh
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To: Enosh; P-Marlowe
flame-proof suit

See post #1

Hey, Marlowe, can I have a pair of Hugo Grotius flame-retardent underroos? Thanks.

:>)

4 posted on 12/11/2006 6:42:13 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: xzins
I think John Everett Millais (of the Pre-Raphaelite brotherhood) had a good interpretation.
5 posted on 12/11/2006 6:43:51 AM PST by linda_22003
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If she had no children other than Jesus, that would certainly have been reported by Luke. Although Jesus was certainly unique, he was not an only child.


6 posted on 12/11/2006 6:44:02 AM PST by ChuteTheMall (Tagline: If you're reading this, I'm influencing your mind.)
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To: linda_22003

Can you post a link?


7 posted on 12/11/2006 6:46:09 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: xzins
He do know that Joseph and Mary had children after Jesus was born: James, Joses, Simon, and others.

Where do we KNOW this from?

8 posted on 12/11/2006 6:46:20 AM PST by wagglebee ("We are ready for the greatest achievements in the history of freedom." -- President Bush, 1/20/05)
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To: xzins

The Hugo Grotius® label Arminian Asbestos Undergarments are made from the finest northern European asbestos and are intended to protect the wearer from the torches of their Calvinistic antagonists and to provide maximum comfort when escaping persecution by the Calvinst swarms while locked inside old book boxes.

Somehow, don't think the Calvinists will be your antagonists on this thread.

9 posted on 12/11/2006 6:47:22 AM PST by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: wagglebee

See the scriptures above at post #1


10 posted on 12/11/2006 6:48:15 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: xzins; Forest Keeper; HarleyD; P-Marlowe; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; Corin Stormhands

"What happened to Joseph the father of Jesus"

Obviously, if you follow the thinking on some of the other threads, since there is nothing said about his death you have to assume he did not die and was just taken up into heaven. We may be on good grounds for thinking this since Matt. 1:19 says he was a just (righteous) man so he qualifies for going passed death and right into his eternal reward. We also have the dry run so he woudn't be suprised in Matt. 1:24 where the angel "raised him". All we need now is a date to celebrate "The Assumption of Joseph".


11 posted on 12/11/2006 6:48:44 AM PST by blue-duncan
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To: xzins

Sure. It's called "Christ in the House of His Parents" (alternate title, "The Carpenter's Shop"), and was considered pretty scandalous when it was first exhibited, in 1850.

http://encyclopedia.quickseek.com/images/Millais-christ-in-the-house-of-his-parents.jpg


12 posted on 12/11/2006 6:49:11 AM PST by linda_22003
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To: P-Marlowe
I was advised in post #3 that I'd need a flame-proof suit, and I'm just comfortable with my red Grotius flame-retardent underroos.

Sort of security blanket, I guess. :>)

13 posted on 12/11/2006 6:50:03 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: xzins
You know, I've often wondered about that. As a baptist-by-birth, I just figured matter-of-factly that Jesus had siblings because it SAYS so. The fact that a distinction is made b/tw extended family and household (immediate family) was a bygone conclusion to me.

I married into a Catholic family who looked at me as though I were crazy for saying, point blank, that James was the half-brother of Jesus (as in, son of Joseph and not God). It got brought up because they kept making reference to "Mary, the ever-virgin". I had asked why they called her that b/c of her having other children. Man, that was uncomfortable.

14 posted on 12/11/2006 7:04:16 AM PST by EarthBound (Ex Deo, gratia. Ex astris, scientia)
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To: xzins
Matthew 1: 24 Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, 25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. F5 And he called His name Jesus.
15 posted on 12/11/2006 7:10:35 AM PST by DaveMSmith ("Heaven is the only basis for our continued existence".)
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To: EarthBound
'It got brought up because they kept making reference to "Mary, the ever-virgin"'

Yeah, ask them why God would even put Jesus in Mary's womb if he was just going to teleport out of it 10 months later like spock from star trek and not even break the hymen.
16 posted on 12/11/2006 7:10:56 AM PST by bahblahbah
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To: linda_22003; xzins

If I am looking at this correctly. Jesus is very clearly portrayed as the YOUNGEST sibling. And this would have eliminated any possibility of the others being children of Mary (though not necessarily Joseph).


17 posted on 12/11/2006 7:12:47 AM PST by wagglebee ("We are ready for the greatest achievements in the history of freedom." -- President Bush, 1/20/05)
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To: xzins
"After the Feast was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends."

I was reading on another thread how Mary was supposedly completely devoted to Jesus and that is supposed evidence that she was unique among all human beings. But here we have Mary and Joseph both unaware that their son was not even with them when they left Jerusalem and not discovering that fact for at least 24 hours.

The implication here is that Mary was so busy with other duties, i.e., tending to her younger children, that she didn't even notice that her oldest son was not among the company.

Now in todays society, both Mary and Joseph would have been charged with child neglect and Jesus would have ended up in a foster home pending a complete investigation by child protective services.

Funny that this is the only mention in the Bible of the pre-ministry relationship between Mary and Jesus.

18 posted on 12/11/2006 7:12:48 AM PST by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe; xzins; Gamecock; Dr. Eckleburg; Frumanchu; HarleyD; AlbionGirl; suzyjaruki
The Hugo Grotius® label Arminian Asbestos Undergarments are made from the finest northern European asbestos and are intended to protect the wearer from the torches of their Calvinistic antagonists and to provide maximum comfort when escaping persecution by the Calvinst swarms while locked inside old book boxes.

Somehow, don't think the Calvinists will be your antagonists on this thread.

Sigh - if only some people would get around to changing their underwear...

-- SOILED --
UNDERWEAR
According to Grotius, Christ's death was a public
display of God's justice, but not an actual payment
on behalf of sinners
. In other words, the cross shows
what punishment for sin would look like if God
recompensed sin. But no actual vicarious payment
of the sinner's debt was made by Christ
.

Grotius believed the atonement was exemplary rather than substitutionary. Christ did not actually suffer in anyone's place. The atonement accomplished nothing objective on the sinner's behalf; it was merely a symbolic gesture. Christ's death was an example only. And redemption therefore hinges completely on something the sinner must do.


19 posted on 12/11/2006 7:13:54 AM PST by Alex Murphy
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To: bahblahbah
Yeah, ask them why God would even put Jesus in Mary's womb if he was just going to teleport out of it 10 months later like spock from star trek and not even break the hymen

HILARIOUS!

20 posted on 12/11/2006 7:14:49 AM PST by EarthBound (Ex Deo, gratia. Ex astris, scientia)
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To: xzins

Luke 2:41 makes no mention of anything other than His parents. Are you suggesting that other children were born AFTER Jesus remained in the Temple?


21 posted on 12/11/2006 7:15:21 AM PST by wagglebee ("We are ready for the greatest achievements in the history of freedom." -- President Bush, 1/20/05)
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To: wagglebee

I think the others could also be apprentices.


22 posted on 12/11/2006 7:18:24 AM PST by linda_22003
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To: xzins; Kolokotronis

One should ponder greek before making such assertions.

As I understand it Greek (as is the case in Russian which I speak) has a longer version of the word for brother or sister when reffering to cousins. For this reason I thought my wife (then fiance) had several brothers and sisters when in fact she has only one brother, and several cousins; however they commonly shorten this to simply brother or sister.


23 posted on 12/11/2006 7:19:01 AM PST by kawaii
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To: linda_22003

Who is the older woman?


24 posted on 12/11/2006 7:21:39 AM PST by wagglebee ("We are ready for the greatest achievements in the history of freedom." -- President Bush, 1/20/05)
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To: xzins

The myth of Mary's perpetual virginity comes from the Gnostic apocryphal literature of the early church [the Gospel of Peter, and the Protevangelium of James] --- books that the RCC magisterium insists from time to time that it does not consider authoritative, except, of course, when it finds some immaculate concoction therein to challenge the facts of the Scriptures.


25 posted on 12/11/2006 7:28:14 AM PST by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: xzins
I believe he went in the aspirin business.


26 posted on 12/11/2006 7:28:17 AM PST by PBRSTREETGANG
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To: wagglebee
All unanswered questions by the painter; could be St. Anne, I suppose. I think that's why I like the Pre-Raphaelites; they skewed traditional interpretations of common themes. My favorite Annunciation painting is that of Dante Gabriel Rossetti, "Ecce Ancilla Domini", in which you can see Mary's real pondering of the implications of what the Angel is saying to her; she's not the placid, expressionless figure that classical art has given us over the centuries.
27 posted on 12/11/2006 7:29:58 AM PST by linda_22003
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To: wagglebee; linda_22003

I know nothing about this painting but could that be Elizabeth? the other young one could be St. John the baptizer; he looks like he is wearing hair pants (instead of hair shirt), and is carrying water like he is ready to baptize.


28 posted on 12/11/2006 7:31:38 AM PST by Nihil Obstat (viva il papa)
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To: xzins

So what happened to the biological brothers of Christ? Are there still relatives living today, people who are genetically related to the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity?


29 posted on 12/11/2006 7:34:12 AM PST by mockingbyrd (Good heavens! What women these Christians have-----Libanus)
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To: Nihil Obstat

I think that's very good - at least as far as John is concerned. He appears to be just enough older.


30 posted on 12/11/2006 7:34:16 AM PST by linda_22003
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To: linda_22003

She looks rather like Kate Winslet there.


31 posted on 12/11/2006 7:38:29 AM PST by Oberon (What does it take to make government shrink?)
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To: Oberon

I don't know who the model is for Mary; he did the painting before he met his major model (and mistress, and wife) Lizzie Siddal, and certainly before he met Jane Morris.


32 posted on 12/11/2006 7:42:14 AM PST by linda_22003
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To: mockingbyrd

"So what happened to the biological brothers of Christ? Are there still relatives living today, people who are genetically related to the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity?"

Possibly, but also Mary could just be a surrogate mother.


33 posted on 12/11/2006 7:42:40 AM PST by bahblahbah
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To: mockingbyrd
So what happened to the biological brothers of Christ?

One of these would be James, who would become a patriarch of the church in Jerusalem and author of the Book of James. He's mentioned in Matthew 13:55 and Mark 6:3. It's entirely possible that James had descendants, but I know of no historical documentation for such an assertion.

34 posted on 12/11/2006 7:44:24 AM PST by Oberon (What does it take to make government shrink?)
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To: xzins
Still no scripture passage that calls anyone other than Jesus a son or daughter of Mary.

Mary cannot have had any other children. They would have to have been younger than Jesus, and for Jesus to give Mary to John at Calvary would have been sinning, by permitting his younger siblings to avoid the commandment "Honor thy father and thy mother".

And to claim that the error that Mary had other children is "the Protestant position" dumps Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli out of the Protestant fold, because none of them agreed with it, as their writings clearly attest.

35 posted on 12/11/2006 7:50:38 AM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: Oberon
Scripture identifies James' parentage already. James is the son of Alphaeus/Clopas and "Mary the wife of Clopas," who is identified as the "sister" of Mary the mother of the Lord.

The likely relationship is that "Mary wife of Clopas" was the sister-in-law of Mary the mother of the Lord, and Alphaeus/Clopas was either her blood brother, or her brother-in-law.

36 posted on 12/11/2006 7:52:30 AM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: Campion
"Scripture identifies James' parentage already. James is the son of Alphaeus/Clopas and "Mary the wife of Clopas," who is identified as the "sister" of Mary the mother of the Lord."

IIRC, I don't think scripture definitely shows that but that is how Jerome argued it.
37 posted on 12/11/2006 7:54:44 AM PST by bahblahbah
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To: Campion
Mary cannot have had any other children. They would have to have been younger than Jesus, and for Jesus to give Mary to John at Calvary would have been sinning, by permitting his younger siblings to avoid the commandment "Honor thy father and thy mother".

Ok, how?

38 posted on 12/11/2006 7:56:06 AM PST by EarthBound (Ex Deo, gratia. Ex astris, scientia)
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To: bahblahbah
Possibly, but also Mary could just be a surrogate mother.

Meaning to Joseph's children?

39 posted on 12/11/2006 7:57:04 AM PST by mockingbyrd (Good heavens! What women these Christians have-----Libanus)
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To: EarthBound
A Jew can't absolve another Jew of his obligation to the Law. Nor would that even be a sensible thing to do, or a charitable one. Would you, as an older sibling, award your mother to an unrelated stranger as you hung dying as a condemned criminal, if she were not already alone in the world? Would you declare your younger siblings to be orphans as your last act in the world?

"Honor thy Father and thy Mother" is essentially natural law anyway, and nobody can absolve anyone of obedience to that.

40 posted on 12/11/2006 7:58:41 AM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: EarthBound

Further, why would it not be okay for Mary to have children younger than Jesus?


41 posted on 12/11/2006 7:59:06 AM PST by EarthBound (Ex Deo, gratia. Ex astris, scientia)
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To: Campion

did jesus have a sister?
was she there at his death?
and did she cry for mary’s comfort
as she watched him
on the cross?
and was mary too despairing
ask your brother
he’s the boss
he’s the chief
he’s the man
he’s the show
did he have a sister?
a little baby sister?
did jesus have a sister?
doesn’t anyone know?

-- Dory Previn


42 posted on 12/11/2006 7:59:07 AM PST by linda_22003
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To: xzins
As a Southern Baptist, I have often wondered why would Joseph stick around if it happened the way the Catholics and others thought.

I mean, here you are, newly married, and you can't consummate with your wife. I don't see him being a strong force in the Lord's life as a youth if you cannot show your love to your wife, even as a stepfather to a stepson.

I mean no flaming to anyone, just a point that was on my mind.
43 posted on 12/11/2006 7:59:27 AM PST by Sybeck1 (Southaven Mississippi Freeper)
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To: Campion

Is this James not the half-brother of Christ? When Christ said to "behold his mother", was he not saying to be sure to take care of her? Also, how would telling a "stranger" to take on your mother make her other children orphans?


44 posted on 12/11/2006 8:01:44 AM PST by EarthBound (Ex Deo, gratia. Ex astris, scientia)
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To: Sybeck1
I mean, here you are, newly married, and you can't consummate with your wife.

If my wife became unable to have relations with me, would I be justified in just walking away, in your view?

Joseph was a just and Godly man (Scripture says so), and I think he viewed his wife as someone greater than an instrument for his sexual satisfaction?

He also had a mission given him by God in a dream, and I don't think he was the sort to walk away from his divinely-given assignment.

45 posted on 12/11/2006 8:02:30 AM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: Sybeck1
I mean, here you are, newly married, and you can't consummate with your wife. I don't see him being a strong force in the Lord's life as a youth if you cannot show your love to your wife, even as a stepfather to a stepson.

I also wondered about that. After Mary gave birth to Jesus, was she and her husband celibate until his death? Aren't they supposed to "be fruitful and multiply"?

46 posted on 12/11/2006 8:04:03 AM PST by EarthBound (Ex Deo, gratia. Ex astris, scientia)
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To: bahblahbah
"Possibly, but also Mary could just be a surrogate mother."

This is an elegant solution to the question of how Christ avoided original sin. If Mary contributed nothing to His composition, and was merely a vessel into which He was placed, he would inherit none of her traits, including sin.

Of course, this solution also sends us into murky Christoloigical waters where Docetic and Monophysite monters lurk. If Jesus recieved nothing from Mary, where did His humanity come from?

47 posted on 12/11/2006 8:11:46 AM PST by jboot (If I can't get a Josiah, I'll settle for a Jehu)
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To: xzins
"In short, it is likely that Mary & Joseph had other children."

Why some "Christians" go to such great lengths to prove that Our Lord's mother was not a perpetual virgin baffles me. Having studied all your listed verses, and more, I can say with absolute certainty that there is no N/T verse whatsoever that establishes that Jesus Christ had blood brothers or sisters. The Old Testament is rife with examples of people calling their uncles, cousins and followers "brothers". And never once does the N/T say "these are Mary's sons/daughters". Other O/T examples have only-child sons being called "first born", (because "first born" was actually the title bestowed on the child who opened the womb of his mother, whether or not he had siblings afterwards.

I have been in this debate many times with Protestants, and have never lost, having been able to answer each and every heretical example more than adequately. But this time around I'm going to pass, letting you prots make your charges against the Mother of God as you may. Though how anyone can possibly think such allegations against Christ's mother are pleasing to Him escapes me. I will, however, part with an Old Testament verse which prefigures the Virgin Mary:
" Then the man brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, the one facing east, and it was shut. The LORD said to me, "This gate is to remain shut. It must not be opened; no one may enter through it. It is to remain shut because the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered through it."" (Ezekiel 44:1-2).

48 posted on 12/11/2006 8:16:52 AM PST by TheCrusader
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To: TheCrusader
Why some Christians go to such great lengths to prove that Our Lord's mother was a perpetual virgin baffles me, especially in the face of a complete lack of scriptural evidence or contemporary testimony.

But I don't presume to question their brotherhood in Christ over such a trival thing.

49 posted on 12/11/2006 8:21:15 AM PST by jboot (If I can't get a Josiah, I'll settle for a Jehu)
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To: EarthBound
Is this James not the half-brother of Christ? When Christ said to "behold his mother", was he not saying to be sure to take care of her?

He was speaking to John, the "beloved disciple," whom Scripture idenfies as one of the two "sons of Zebedee".

There are two apostles name James. One is John's brother ("James the Greater") and the other is the "brother of the Lord" and son of Alphaeus/Clopas ("James the Lesser").

50 posted on 12/11/2006 8:22:38 AM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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