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Three Reasons the Church’s Enemies Hate The Immaculate Conception
TFP ^ | 12.08.06 | Plinio Corręa de Oliveira

Posted on 12/12/2006 10:51:32 PM PST by Coleus

The following text is adapted from a lecture Prof. Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira gave on June 15, 1973.  It has been translated and edited for publication without his revision.  Note, in this text, he uses the words Revolution and Counter-Revolution as he defined them in his book Revolution and Counter-Revolution.  In this sense, the Revolution is a centuries-old process, motivated by pride and sensuality, and therefore egalitarianism and liberalism, that dominates the modern world and seeks to destroy Christian civilization.  Counter-Revolutionaries are those dedicated to defeating this process and defending the rights of God. –Ed.

…One of the truly Counter-Revolutionary acts of Pope Pius IX’s pontificate was the proclamation of the Immaculate Conception. 

There are three reasons the definition of this dogma was especially Counter-Revolutionary and therefore hateful to the enemies of the Church.  

First Reason: An Anti-Egalitarian Dogma
As you know, this dogma teaches that Our Lady was immaculate at her conception, meaning that, at no moment, did she have even the slightest stain of Original Sin. Both she, and naturally Our Lord Jesus Christ, were exempt from that rigid law that subjugates all other descendants of Adam and Eve.  Thus, Our Lady was not subject to the miseries of fallen man.  She did not have bad influences, inclinations and tendencies.  In her, everything moved harmonically towards truth, goodness and therefore God.  In this sense, Our Lady is an example of perfect liberty, meaning that everything her reason, illuminated by Faith, determined as good, her will desired entirely.  She had no interior obstacles to impede her practice of virtue.

Being “full of grace” increased these effects.  Thus, her will advanced with an unimaginable impetus towards everything that was true and good.  Declaring that a mere human creature had this extraordinary privilege makes this dogma fundamentally anti-egalitarian, because it points out an enormous inequality in the work of God.  It demonstrates the total superiority of Our Lady over all other beings.  Thus, its proclamation made Revolutionary egalitarian spirits boil with hatred.

Second Reason: The Unsullied Purity of Our Lady
However, there is a more profound reason why the Revolution hates this dogma.  The Revolution loves evil and is in harmony with those who are bad, and thus tries to find evil in everything.  On the contrary, those who are irreproachable are a cause of intense hatred.  Therefore, the idea that a being could be utterly spotless from the first moment of her existence is abhorrent to Revolutionaries.  For example: Imagine a man who is consumed with impurity.  When besieged by impure inclinations, he is ashamed of his consent to them.  This leaves him depressed and utterly devastated.

Imagine this man considering Our Lady, who, being the personification of transcendental purity, did not have even the least appetite for lust.  He feels hatred and scorn because her virtue smashes his pride.  Furthermore, by declaring Our Lady to be so free from pride, sensuality and the desire for anything Revolutionary, the proclamation of the Immaculate Conception affirmed that she was utterly Counter-Revolutionary.  This only inflamed the Revolutionary hatred of the dogma all the more.

Disputing the Doctrine: A Counter-Revolutionary Struggle

Declaring that Our Lady was so free from pride, sensuality and the desire for anything Revolutionary, affirmed that she was utterly Counter-Revolutionary and inflamed the Revolutionary hatred of the dogma all the more.

For centuries, there were two opposing currents of thought about the Immaculate Conception in the Church.  While it would be an exaggeration to suggest that everyone who fought against the doctrine was acting with Revolutionary intentions; it is a fact that all those who were acting with Revolutionary intentions fought against it.  On the other hand, all those who favored its proclamation, at least on that point, expressed a Counter-Revolutionary attitude. Thus, in some way the fight between the Revolution and Counter-Revolution was present in the fight between these two theological currents.

Third Reason:  The Exercise of Papal Infallibility
There is still another reason this dogma is hateful to Revolutionaries: it was the first dogma proclaimed through Papal Infallibility.  At that time, the dogma of Papal Infallibility had not yet been defined and there was a current in the Church maintaining that the Pope was only infallible when presiding over a council.  Nevertheless, Pius IX invoked Papal Infallibility when he defined the Immaculate Conception after merely consulting some theologians and bishops.   For liberal theologians, this seemed like circular reasoning.  If his infallibility had not been defined, how could he use it?  On the contrary, by using his infallibility, he affirmed that he had it.

This daring affirmation provoked an explosion of indignation among Revolutionaries, but enormous enthusiasm among Counter-Revolutionaries.  In praise of the new dogma, children all over the world were baptized under the name: Conception, Concepcion or Concepta to consecrate them to the Immaculate Conception of Our Lady.

Pius IX: Bringing the Fight to the Enemy
It is not surprising that Pius IX so adamantly affirmed Papal Infallibility.  Very different from those who succeeded him, he was ever ready to bring the fight to the enemy.  He did this in Geneva, Switzerland, which then was the breeding ground of Calvinism, which is the most radical form of Protestantism.  When Swiss laws changed to allow a Catholic Cathedral in Geneva, Pius IX ordered that a statue of the Immaculate Conception be placed in the middle of the city, to proclaim this dogma in the place where Calvinists, Lutherans and other Protestants denied it more than anywhere else.  This is an example of Pius IX’s leadership in the fight against the Revolution. It is therefore entirely proper that all Catholics entertain a special affection for the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, which is so detested by the enemies of the Church today.

To read another commentary on the Immaculate Conception, click here.
To read Fr. Saint-Laurent's commentary on the Immaculate Conception, click here.
To order your free copy of a picture of Our Lady of the Immaculate Conception, click here.


TOPICS: Catholic; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: catholic; catholiccaucus; immaculateconception; ourlady; tfp
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1 posted on 12/12/2006 10:51:37 PM PST by Coleus
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To: Coleus
...the Revolution is a centuries-old process, motivated by pride and sensuality, and therefore egalitarianism and liberalism, that dominates the modern world and seeks to destroy Christian civilization. Counter-Revolutionaries are those dedicated to defeating this process and defending the rights of God.

Defending the rights of God? What does this mean?

2 posted on 12/12/2006 11:48:59 PM PST by snarks_when_bored
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To: Coleus; NYer; Victoria Delsoul; kstewskis; Raquel; Tax-chick

Thanks!


3 posted on 12/13/2006 3:27:30 AM PST by Northern Yankee ( Stay The Course!)
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To: Northern Yankee

Can you answer the question I asked in post #2?


4 posted on 12/13/2006 5:14:09 AM PST by snarks_when_bored
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To: Coleus
I hate the doctrine of immaculate conception because it is false and that is all the reason I need.

Rev 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.

2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 2Jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
5 posted on 12/13/2006 6:25:36 AM PST by bremenboy (Just Because I Am Born Again Doesn't Mean I was Born Again Yesterday)
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To: snarks_when_bored
Defending the rights of God? What does this mean?

Defending the right of God to receive due worship from all mankind, and honor and glory from all human institutions.

6 posted on 12/13/2006 6:43:03 AM PST by Andrew Byler
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To: Andrew Byler

Thanks for the reply, Andrew. I guess I don't recall having heard the word 'rights' used in relation to God. It sounds odd.


7 posted on 12/13/2006 6:55:01 AM PST by snarks_when_bored
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To: Coleus

What is puzzeling is that there are seemingly intelliegent people that believe this fairy tale...

There's not a human being ever been born ('cept Jesus Christ) who ever had an infallable 'second' during his/her lifetime...


8 posted on 12/13/2006 7:37:35 AM PST by Iscool (Anybody tired??? I have a friend who says "Come unto me, and I'll give you rest"...)
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To: Coleus

Shouldn't there be a reason 4; Because the basis for it wasn't articulated until St Augustine in 300-something, even he advised against using it to state something like the doctrine of Immaculate conception, was debated as recently as the 1200s be renowned Catholic Saints like Thomas Aquinas, and was not even officially made a Roman Catholic teaching until 1854?

:)


9 posted on 12/13/2006 7:55:26 AM PST by kawaii
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To: Coleus

Noting that it's hardly right to call all who reject the notion of the Immaculate Conception as 'enemies of the Roman Catholic Church'...


10 posted on 12/13/2006 7:56:17 AM PST by kawaii
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To: bremenboy
I've always wondered why non-Catholics feel the need to "hate" whatever Christian doctrines that they, for whatever reason, choose to reject. The proclamation that the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, for example, is "false" seems trite in light of the fact that there is no explicit Scriptural basis for many doctrines adhered to by those who chose to separate themselves from the historic and apostolic Church.

I'm operating under the assumption here that a doctrine becomes "false" for these followers of Christ whenever it is not explicitly mentioned in Scripture. But many of the most basic shared tenets of the apostolic faith are not explicit but only implicit in Sacred Scripture. Our current, detailed theology of the relationship between the Persons of Trinity and the nature of Christ come to mind, to name only two examples. These doctrines are not explicitly Scriptural but are only implicit in Scripture. Our detailed doctrines regarding these issues hail from the Holy Spirit's guidance of numerous ecumenical Councils.

Similarly, doctrines such as Mary's perpetual virginity and her immaculate conception are implicit in Scripture. At the very least, one would think that those who don't adhere to these doctrines, would have a "live and let live attitude" knowing that while such doctrines may not come to light in their particular (and rather new) understanding of "sola Scriptura," these beliefs are not in conflict with their own.

Just my two cents for the benefit of open discussion.
11 posted on 12/13/2006 8:07:10 AM PST by DogwoodSouth ("Thou art Peter, and on this rock I will build My Church..." (Mt 16:18))
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To: bremenboy
So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.

The "doctrine of the Nicolaitans" involved sexual promiscuity, so I have no idea why you think it's relevant here. Do you?

12 posted on 12/13/2006 8:12:27 AM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: bremenboy
I hate the doctrine of immaculate conception because it is false

How do you know it is false?

-A8

13 posted on 12/13/2006 8:14:20 AM PST by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: Iscool
There's not a human being ever been born ('cept Jesus Christ) who ever had an infallable 'second' during his/her lifetime...

This is a good example of the truism that those who refuse to venerate Mary as the pinnacle of God's creation end up venerating Jesus as the pinnacle of creation, instead.

... thus demoting him severely.

Jesus Christ is not, and never was, a "human being". He's a Divine Person with a human nature. To call him a "human being" makes him less than God.

14 posted on 12/13/2006 8:15:17 AM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: Iscool

Just to clarify: With all due respect, Mary is not believed to have been "infallible" (unable to sin or make mistakes). She is, after all, human, and throughout her earthly life was surely tempted and quite able to sin.

Instead, we believe that Mary, "in the first instant of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of Almighty God, and in view of the foreseen merits of Jesus Christ, the savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin." We also believe that, with God's grace, Mary preserved this purity throughout her life and did not commit any actual sin. This doesn't mean that she could not sin (infalliblity), but that she did not sin.


15 posted on 12/13/2006 8:17:08 AM PST by DogwoodSouth ("Thou art Peter, and on this rock I will build My Church..." (Mt 16:18))
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To: DogwoodSouth
I'm operating under the assumption here that a doctrine becomes "false" for these followers of Christ whenever it is not explicitly mentioned in Scripture.

The Eastern Church rejected this doctrine (at east in the way the Roman church states it) for quite a while and it had nothing to do with scriptural support but rather to do with the understanding of the Sin of Adam...
16 posted on 12/13/2006 8:17:45 AM PST by kawaii
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To: Iscool

I see....so Jesus was born of a stained vessle?


17 posted on 12/13/2006 8:22:16 AM PST by G Larry (Only strict constructionists on the Supreme Court!)
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To: DogwoodSouth

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;


18 posted on 12/13/2006 8:24:28 AM PST by jkl1122
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To: Campion

Watch it with descriptions of the Holy Trinity, and Christ nature... it's easy to come to close to phraseology that appears to concur with the ancient heresies (i run into this myself when trying to describe it).

"You tell me what is the unbegottenness of the Father, and I will explain to you the physiology of the generation of the Son and the procession of the Spirit, and we shall both be frenzy-stricken for prying into the mystery of God"
-St Gregory the Theologian.


19 posted on 12/13/2006 8:27:09 AM PST by kawaii
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To: DogwoodSouth; bremenboy; Iscool; stfassisi
Similarly, doctrines such as Mary's perpetual virginity and her immaculate conception are implicit in Scripture. At the very least, one would think that those who don't adhere to these doctrines, would have a "live and let live attitude" knowing that while such doctrines may not come to light in their particular (and rather new) understanding of "sola Scriptura," these beliefs are not in conflict with their own.

The difference between the Catholic Church and Protestants here is that Protestants look at the literal sense of Scripture ALONE, completely missing that interpretation of these Scriptures goes beyond the literal - otherwise, how could the first Christians see Christ in the OT? By taking a spiritual view of the Bible, it is plain to see that the Church sees in Mary a type of ITSELF. Rather than the "either/or" of Protestantism that refuses to see the spiritual and literal co-exist in a verse, they discount the spiritual.

But is that what the Bible itself does? No. Paul uses analogy. And Peter says that the Israeli crossing of the Red Sea is a TYPE of Baptism. Thus, the bible itself uses analogy and typology to further God's revelation to mankind in a gradual manner. As such, Catholics see in Mary a type of Church. They see in Gen 3:15 not only the Church, but Mary. Same in Rev 12. Same in Song of Songs. We call Mary our Mother and we call the Church our Mother. Through our Mother comes the Savior of the World - whether literally, or spiritually. They both are our Mother - Mary giving birth literally to the Body of Christ, the Church mystically giving birth to the Body through Baptism. Furthermore, the relationship between mother and child does NOT end with birth! The mother continues to nurture the child - in the Church's case, through the Word and Sacrament.

Until Protestants can learn to contemplate Scriptures in a more fuller sense, trying to understand what God has said to us (the Bible is not only a historical book), they won't understand the doctrines of Mary, which are merely recognition of Mary's special place in salvation history that reflects on Christology and Ecclesiology.

Regards

20 posted on 12/13/2006 8:31:50 AM PST by jo kus (Humility is present when one debases oneself without being obliged to do so- St.Chrysostom; Phil 2:8)
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To: kawaii
Do you disagree with what I said?

IMO, calling Jesus a "human being" or a "human person" is either Nestorianism or Arianism.

21 posted on 12/13/2006 8:32:44 AM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: kawaii
Touche', kawaii. I think you point out something extremely important: that Western Christian theology regarding "original sin" (and sin in general) was heavily influenced by the writings of St. Augustine, who was little-read in the Eastern Church until the seventeenth century. Without the existence of "inherited sin" there is no need in Eastern theology for a doctrine which preserves Mary (or anyone else) from inheriting Adam's sin.

It should be noted, however, that Eastern Christians vehemently affirm Mary's sinlessness and there is a widespread (though not dogmatic) belief among the Eastern churches that Mary underwent a "presanctification" or cleansing from a propensity towards sinfulness, at the time of her conception.
22 posted on 12/13/2006 8:39:51 AM PST by DogwoodSouth ("Thou art Peter, and on this rock I will build My Church..." (Mt 16:18))
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To: jkl1122

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

If "all" have sinned, is not Jesus included? Or must we come to understand that God's grace allows for exceptions and that we shouldn't take abuse the generality implicit some a "proof-texts?"


23 posted on 12/13/2006 8:43:19 AM PST by DogwoodSouth ("Thou art Peter, and on this rock I will build My Church..." (Mt 16:18))
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To: Campion

No but it's possible from what you wrote to assume he had one nature; the divine, which would by monophysite.

(From New Advent)

Nestorians: One person, two hypostases, two natures.
Catholics: One person, one hypostasis, two natures.
Monophysites: One person, one hypostasis, one nature.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10489b.htm

I only mention it because protestants tend to read things into what are otherwise Orthodox Catholic posts, and they reinvent enough heresies as it is.


24 posted on 12/13/2006 8:43:50 AM PST by kawaii
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To: jkl1122

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

If "all" have sinned, is not Jesus included? Or must we come to the more realistic understanding (rooted in the historic deposit of the apostolic faith) that God's grace allows for exceptions and that we shouldn't abuse the generality implicit in some "proof-texts?"


25 posted on 12/13/2006 8:44:58 AM PST by DogwoodSouth ("Thou art Peter, and on this rock I will build My Church..." (Mt 16:18))
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To: DogwoodSouth

We know from Scripture that Jesus did not sin. The same can not be said for Mary.


26 posted on 12/13/2006 8:45:28 AM PST by jkl1122
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To: Coleus
We protestants waltz through our Christian life in 3/4 time, praying to God the Father in the name of God the Son with the help of God the Holy Spirit. You guys keep trying to shoehorn Goddess the Mother into the dance, and commending to us a waltz with a 4/4 time signature!

No wonder we keep bumping elbows on the dance floor of life!

27 posted on 12/13/2006 8:47:42 AM PST by TomSmedley (Calvinist, optimist, home schooling dad, exuberant husband, technical writer)
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To: DogwoodSouth

That's why I said 'as stated by Catholics', and in fairness it is essentially reagrded as superfluous, and extra as opposed to wrong.

As far as Orthodox folks who confess a 'presanctification' like the Immaculate conception, generally these are Uniates, or former Uniates. (For instance Latin educated Peter Mohliya who was Patriarch of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church.)

Certainly the Orthodox do not take exception with the Immaculate conception for anything like the reasons Protestants do (Sola Scriptura etc). And the Orthodox understanding of the Sin of Adam is a lot closer than either side often admits to the Roman understanding of it.

May I be so bold as to suggest it will probably be one of the easier theological issues to resolve...


28 posted on 12/13/2006 8:50:08 AM PST by kawaii
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To: Coleus

Thanks for posting this.


29 posted on 12/13/2006 9:07:47 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Coleus; nickcarraway; sandyeggo; Lady In Blue; NYer; american colleen; ELS; Pyro7480; livius; ...
Catholic Discussion Ping!

Please notify me via FReepmail if you would like to be added to or taken off the Catholic Discussion Ping List.

30 posted on 12/13/2006 9:09:28 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Coleus
Here are some additional links about the Immaculate Conception for all who are genuinely interested in finding out more about the Patroness of the United States:

Three Reasons the Church’s Enemies Hate The Immaculate Conception

Mary Is a Model Who Works With Us and in Us

U.S. Catholic bishops to renew consecration of nation to Immaculate Conception

Catholic Meditation: To the Immaculate Conception on this Election Day

My visit to the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception

On Solemnity of Immaculate Conception - "In Mary Shines the Eternal Goodness of the Creator"

Pope makes pilgrimage to Mary statue in Rome, marking the feast of the Immaculate Conception

Pope: Mary the Immaculate Conception... (text of BXVI speech)

"Tota pulchra es, Maria, et macula originalis non est in te" (The Immaculate Conception)

The Immaculate Conception — Essential to the Faith

"Who Are You, Immaculate Conception?"

TURKEY Ephesus: The Feast of the Immaculate Conception at Mary’s House

Coming Dec 8th. Feast of the "Immaculate Conception"

Why the Immaculate Conception?

Catholic Encyclopedia: Immaculate Conception (The Doctrine and Its Roots)

The Immaculate Conception of Our Lady December 8

Mary's Immaculate Conception: A Memorable Anniversary

Ineffabilis Deus: 8 December 1854 (Dogma of the Immaculate Conception)

Why do we believe in the Immaculate Conception?

John Paul II goes to Lourdes; reflections on the Immaculate Conception

Your Praises We Sing--on the Dogma of the Proclamation of the Immaculate Conception, Dec. 8th

Eastern Christianity and the Immaculate Conception (Q&A From EWTN)

Memorandum on the Immaculate Conception [Newman]

On The Feast of The Immaculate Conception, The Patroness of the US, We Must Pray For Our Country[Read only]

31 posted on 12/13/2006 9:13:08 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: jkl1122
Ahh, but in acknowledging the sinlessness of Jesus (which we all, of course, affirm), you have allowed that there can be exception to the "proof text" that you cited. Of course we are all (Mary included) in need of a Savior. Mary, due to her singular role in salvation history as the Mother of God, was simply saved in a different manner from the rest of us. While we are saved out of our sins, (after the fact), she was saved from sin (before the fact).

Of course your argument that "we know from Scripture that Jesus did not sin" implies that Scripture is the singular rule of faith, a belief that is rather new in Christian history. But, cooperating with your insistence on adhering to Sola Scriptura (an unbiblical doctrine in and of itself, I might add), I would draw your attention to St. Luke's use of the Greek term kecharitomene as a description of Mary (Luke 1:28). Luke uses the word, which means roughly "filled to the brim with grace" is as a perfect passive participle nominative, used as a substantive. In other words, the archangel Gabriel's acknowledgment of Mary's state of being filled with grace was made in reference to a past event (the filling with grace) whose effects were still present at the time of his greeting. Secondly, he uses the description in a nominative fashion, in essence calling the young Virgin not Mary, but by the name "Full of Grace." In the cosmology of the time, one's name was intimately tied to their identity: to who they truly were and to the role that they played in life. That is why we are commanded throughout the New Testament to do things in the "name of Jesus," because in so doing, we do them in and through the Person of Jesus. If one is "full of grace," God's divine life, that person has no room, as it were, for sin. One cannot be completely filled with grace without being completely void of sin. And, since identities do not change, Mary's identification as "Full of Grace" at the very least implies that she was "Full of Grace" at all times.

So, there is biblical precedent for the historic Church's (East and West) shared belief in Mary's sinlessness.
32 posted on 12/13/2006 9:26:39 AM PST by DogwoodSouth ("Thou art Peter, and on this rock I will build My Church..." (Mt 16:18))
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To: jkl1122

(For perspective the Orthodox understanding of original sin, the sinlessness of Mary, and why we dont profess the immaculate conception )

Sinlessness of Mary

QUESTION:

How exactly does the Orthodox Church view the sinlessness of Mary? In the Liturgy it is said, "One is Holy, One is Lord, Jesus Christ, to the Glory of God the Father" and in other places that Jesus is the only sinless one. Also, in reference to 1 John 1:8 where it says, "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." How can these be reconciled? Is the Theotokos all-pure, all-holy, all-blameless because of her deification through her Son, so that she is those things because her Son is, as we are holy, pure, etc. through our union to Christ?

Also, how is it that she is referred to as the only refuge for sinners, and various phrases like this? Isn't Christ our only refuge and the salvation of sinners?

This is the main stumbling block I have with Orthodoxy right now. There seems to be varying beliefs within the Orthodoxy on the Theotokos. Didn't St John Chrysostom teach that Mary had sinned at least once? When I read the earliest Church Fathers there seems to be little focus on Mary apart from the Christological issue of whether she was the Mother of God, or only of Christ. Doesn't the teaching that Mary was sinless from birth state the same general concept, that Mary is more than the rest of humanity, as the Immaculate Conception (apart from the idea of original sin) except that it moves the moment of the supernatural grace of God to birth from conception?

I am not trying to answer my own questions, but am simply not understanding how these contradictions, at least seemingly, can be resolved.


ANSWER:

While I would love to be able to fully answer your question, it is far beyond the scope of an e-mail, especially because full understanding of the Orthodox position, based on the tenor of your question, on the Virgin Mary requires a thorough explanation of some of the secondary issues to which you refer, such as original sin, the Immaculate Conception, supernatural grace, etc. As such, I would highly recommend that you meet in person with the parish priest at the Orthodox Church you have been visiting -- he will no doubt be glad to answer the question at some depth.

I can say, in short, that the Orthodox Church believes that Mary, as a human being, could indeed have sinned, but chose not to. In the Roman Catholic understanding, it seems that Mary, who according to Roman doctrine had been exempted from the guilt of original sin [the Orthodox do not accept that humans share the guilt of the first sin but, rather, only the consequences] before all eternity, and thus could not have sinned. This is where the complexity comes in on a number of levels and which puts your question beyond the scope of an e-mail.

Jesus Christ is Mary's Savior, as well as ours, as testified in her own statement in St Luke -- the Magnificat -- where she says, "My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior." If Mary had been "sin-proofed," so to speak, from all eternity, the Orthodox would argue as to why she would need a Savior.

Mary is the "new Eve" who said "yes" to God where the first Eve said "no." She did have a choice, and you may wish to ask your local parish priest to share with you the text of the Kanon from Matins for the Great Feast of the Annunciation, in which you will see a beautiful dialogue between Mary and the Archangel Gabriel in which she debates whether or not to accept the archangel's news, only in the end accepting that which he announced.

While much that the Orthodox say of Mary "sounds" similar to that which is taught by Roman Catholicism, there are serious differences on many levels. You are correct in saying, however, that the Orthodox Church does not seem to have such a highly developed mariological tradition as the Christian West; it is, at least in my experience, only in recent times, with the growing interest in Orthodoxy especially among many evangelicals, that we have had to delve so deeply -- and sometimes deeper than we should -- into the role of Mary. Sometimes our answers seem somewhat lame, but in reality there is only so much one can say before one must acknowledge that, while there are certain things we simply cannot fully understand about this, reasoned faith, as defined in St James, becomes the only recourse.

http://www.oca.org/QA.asp?ID=116&SID=3


33 posted on 12/13/2006 9:31:58 AM PST by kawaii
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To: Campion

Dear Campion,

"Do you disagree with what I said?"

"IMO, calling Jesus a 'human being' or a 'human person' is either Nestorianism or Arianism."

I think I disagree. I think there are ways in which these phrases are correctly used in modern English which include Jesus.

For now, I think I'd like to avoid the phrase "human person," because although I think it's defensible when used in one sense, it's easily confused with specific theological terminology that is used to describe the Trinity.

However, in the sense ordinarily given to the phrase "human being," it seems clear that Jesus is a human being. A human being is an individual member of the species homo sapiens, from the moment of conception on. At least, this is what I tell my kids when we're marching for life in January. ;-)

Jesus clearly qualifies.

Of course, at death, the soul is separated from the body, and I believe that at that point, it's considered somewhat inaccurate to call the disembodied soul a "human being." However, for most of us, that'll get tidied up on the Last Day. For Jesus, though, He's already obtained of His glorified Body, and thus, still retains His entire humanity, is still a human being.

A human being is a human soul giving form to a human body. Jesus clearly qualifies.

Of course, Jesus is at the same time God, the Second Person of the Trinity. But in saying that Jesus has two natures, Divine and human, we say that He is human (as well as Divine). One nature is not subsumed into the other. Jesus is not God with some human nature subsumed into His Divine nature. He is both fully God and fully man, each unmixed from the other. It seems almost a tautology, almost a grammatical identity to say that a man is a human being. He's also a Divine being. That's the whole point of the Incarnation. Jesus is at once both Divine and human, God and man.

I agree that one can make heterodox interpretations of the phrase, but I think that's sort of inherent in the whole Incarnation business.

Just my two cents.


sitetest


34 posted on 12/13/2006 9:33:29 AM PST by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: Salvation

Here we go, AGAIN.


35 posted on 12/13/2006 9:33:42 AM PST by wagglebee ("We are ready for the greatest achievements in the history of freedom." -- President Bush, 1/20/05)
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To: snarks_when_bored
Defending the rights of God? What does this mean?

At a guess, I would say it means advocating for the legitimacy of God's claims on us.

36 posted on 12/13/2006 9:35:08 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Now we are all Massoud)
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To: Religion Moderator; Gamecock; Frumanchu; blue-duncan; Dr. Eckleburg; P-Marlowe; Alex Murphy; ...

All the above from the main article of this thread.

Mod, is this what you meant when describing "inciteful?"

Today I will be a Calvinist in the tradition of Calvin; a Lutheran in the tradition of Luther.

37 posted on 12/13/2006 9:38:28 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: sitetest
For now, I think I'd like to avoid the phrase "human person," because although I think it's defensible when used in one sense, it's easily confused with specific theological terminology that is used to describe the Trinity.

You can't just "avoid" it.

Orthodox theologians reject the application of the term "human person" to Jesus; it's not just my opinion. He's not a "human person", he's a divine person.

You have to then argue that Jesus can be a "human being" without being (!!) a "human person". I suppose that's possible, since the term "human being" doesn't have much of a theological pedigree.

A human being is a human soul giving form to a human body. Jesus clearly qualifies.

If that's your definition, I would agree with you, insofar as you've stated it.

In metaphysical terms, what you've just said (I think) is that any *person* having a *human nature* is a "human being". In that case, Jesus is definitely a human being. (He's a person -- "an individual substance of a rational nature" -- and he has a human nature.)

But if you use "human being" as synonymous with "human person", then He can't be. As I say, the term "human being" isn't a theologically precise term of art. (It's an English expression anyway; how would it translate into Latin or Greek?)

38 posted on 12/13/2006 9:42:16 AM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: Iscool
What is puzzeling is that there are seemingly intelliegent people that believe this fairy tale...

Oh, it gets worse, even more puzzling. There are seemingly intelligent people who for years did not believe it and even argued against it, and had theological educations to help them do so, and then they thought and prayed and prayed and thought and came to believe it!

It's clearly a plot.

;-)

39 posted on 12/13/2006 9:44:00 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Now we are all Massoud)
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To: jkl1122
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

St. Paul is speaking hyperbolically here. Jesus didn't sin. Babies haven't sinned (because they can't). Persons who are severely mentally disabled haven't sinned (again, they can't).

If you look at the context of the verse, what St. Paul is saying is not an observation on the universality of sin, but an observation on the universal need for a Savior. And if we understand it that way, Mary is not exempt from that universal need.

40 posted on 12/13/2006 9:46:39 AM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: kawaii
In the Roman Catholic understanding, it seems that Mary, who according to Roman doctrine had been exempted from the guilt of original sin [the Orthodox do not accept that humans share the guilt of the first sin but, rather, only the consequences] before all eternity, and thus could not have sinned.

It may "seem" that way, but, to the best of my knowledge, that's not what we believe.

It's probably best not to create strawmen by drawing assumptions about what others' doctrine "seems" to say. Better to deal with what they actually do say.

41 posted on 12/13/2006 9:52:07 AM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: Campion

See post 28.

I posted from the OCA site only to articulate what the Orthodox DO beleive, not so much what the Catholics do or don't.


42 posted on 12/13/2006 9:54:10 AM PST by kawaii
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To: wagglebee; Salvation
Here we go, AGAIN.

************

Indeed. The Church had me at: "Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church". :)

All that it teaches I accept. Some of these discussions are interesting, but in the end, I believe.

43 posted on 12/13/2006 9:54:21 AM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: Campion

Even the NewAdvent link i posted to you says the Catholics beleive Christ had 2 natures both human and divine.


44 posted on 12/13/2006 9:55:28 AM PST by kawaii
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To: Coleus

Thanks for posting this, I will read it in its entirely later today.

I would also add two other reasons, slightly different tone:

1. They hate conception.

2. They hate purity and moral cleanliness of any kind.


45 posted on 12/13/2006 9:57:41 AM PST by little jeremiah (Only those who thirst for the truth will see the truth)
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To: trisham
All that it teaches I accept.

Acts 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
46 posted on 12/13/2006 9:58:13 AM PST by jkl1122
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To: bremenboy

** because it is false and that is all the reason I need.**

You are wrong. Why would the Angel Gabriel have addressed Mary in the following way if she were impure?

"Hail, Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with you.


47 posted on 12/13/2006 10:01:51 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: jo kus
""they won't understand the doctrines of Mary, which are merely recognition of Mary's special place in salvation history that reflects on Christology and Ecclesiology.""



The Mistake they are making is trying to omit Mary from the New Covenant,this can,t be done because Mary, in union with the sacrifice of her Son, offered to the Eternal Father for the salvation of humankind her maternal rights and love. She, by special privilege, is the unique all-holy member of God's people and in her the Church already at its foundation realized itself as the all-resplendent Bride of Jesus Christ
48 posted on 12/13/2006 10:02:06 AM PST by stfassisi ("Above all gifts that Christ gives his beloved is that of overcoming self"St Francis Assisi)
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To: xzins

The language does indeed press the envelope - but that is tolerable on an open thread providing it does not tip over into hate mongering. Jack Chick materials, Jesus-is-Lord.com, Christian Identity (KKK, Aryan nations) anti-Semitic websites and the like are hate mongering and are not allowed on this forum.


49 posted on 12/13/2006 10:03:07 AM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: Coleus

Another hijacked thread.

Lord, have mercy.

Christ, have mercy.

Lord, have mercy.


50 posted on 12/13/2006 10:03:19 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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