Posted on 12/15/2006 10:17:49 AM PST by kawaii
"Things are pretty interesting in my Orthodox church right now (ROCOR) in that there's a bunch of folks who are completely rejecting the authority of our Bishops and First Heirarch, and the decisions of the council of our Bishops to restore full communion with the Russian church.
It's amazing to see the protestant-like hate for the authority of the church manifests it in some folks (mostly internet psudonyms whom no one can really confirm actually attend ROCOR parishes).
Generally the authority of the Bishops and a heiriarchal understanding of it is a given in the Orthodox church."
You're getting into some dangerous territory here, K. The Sobor has indeed made this decision and it is highly likely that it is the right one, but like all reunions, it will have to be accepted and lived by the laity before you can conclude much about it and it will take some time to see if this reunion is "real" or "false". Remember +Mark of Ephesus and the "False Union" of Florence.
I'm not saying whether its a good idea or a bad idea, I'm saying unequivicoly that insulting the Bishop, resenting his authority and that of the Synod of bishops and in fact the recomendations of laity who were selected as represenatives is at best Un-Orthodox.
10-15 years from now Metropolitan Laurus might be leading a push to sever ties for all I know, but I'd still support him as our Heirarch and not insult him, or accuse him of doing anything other than what he thinks is best for the church.
I'm not generally fond of the OA Bishop's deisions but I don't insult them or make ausations they are not legitimate bishops working in what they beleive are the interests of the church.
(BTW most of these internet folks, and I can send you examples of their scandalous emails if you like, refer to sources like HOCNA. I beleive you Greeks had severed ties with HOCNA also...)
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Holy_Orthodox_Church_in_North_America
Regarding Florence, even the Latins admit the Greeks said they had to ratify any decision in Synod back in Greece. That's a lot different scenerio.
The First Heirarch is for Union.
The Synod of Bishops is For Union
The VI All Diaspora Council with represenatives from everywhere unianimously reccomended union.
The alternative is to officially declare schism with Orthodoy.
ROCOR has no ancient see, no patriarchate, no ties to Orthodoxy without being part of the whole Russian church, and they've said that since the start.
Please understand I think the reunion is wonderful. I think all of canonical Orthodoxy thinks that. My point is only that the mere fact that a bishop, or even a synod of bishops say something doesn't, by that reason alone, make it holy writ. Orthodoxy has had far too much experience with heresiarchs for that. Remember what +John Chrysostomos said about the floor of hell.
ROCOR's particular situation here, or rather the process by which ROCOR arrived at this point of anticipated reunion has been done exactly right in my opinion. From what I understand from the Russians around here, there has been extensive involvement of lower clergy and laity in this process, and I don't mean by stooges of hierarchs. I have not heard definitively about the position of the only ROCOR priest in this state, but last summer he was saying that there would be no reunion and seemed positively happy about it. He is a convert and seems to relish playing the role of 19th century Russian peasant. His parish has lost most of the Russians and Ukrainians to our Greek Orthodox parish. The majority of the few parishioners left at the ROCOR parish are convert, back to the earth types from the 60s and 70s. They like playing 19th century Russian peasants too.
The converts vs real Russians things plays into it too (though I'm not Russian and I'm all for union and I know a lot of convert priests who are).
Another thing that plays into it is the whole White Army Red Army stuff. Russians who grew up loathing the Russians in Russia.
"Another thing that plays into it is the whole White Army Red Army stuff. Russians who grew up loathing the Russians in Russia."
Funny thing about that. The Russians in our parish are ALL descendants of White Russian officers, every last one of them. And they all are excited about the reunion, which I understand is not the general experience. My suspicion is that because all the White Russians and nobility who moved here after the Revolution are now dead and the present ROCOR priest has been there for many years with his "different" ways, whatever hatred there was for Russians in Russia is now gone around here.
It seems there's both sides of the spectrum...
Though I'm sure our parish priest was decended from these folks also and he hasn't really said he's for union but has said much about following our Bishops.
Depends on how you define "protestant".
From an outsiders view, but one with a little bit of similar background, I suspect once the "old generation" of bishops pass away, some of the fights will diminish.
That was the situation with the Old Lutheran's and many of the North American synods. Because of the collaboration of many church leaders, most of the synods on this side of the pond severed ties. Now, almost sixty years later, those ties are being reforged.
"Depends on how you define "protestant"."
Well I define it to include even Lutherans, who, often when they read The Fathers, wind up remarkably, really remarkably, Orthodox in their mindset...like a couple I know here on FR! :) One of the great eye openers of my years here on these threads!
** i posted this so as to illustrate that the closer the protestants come to actually learning the history of the church and its doctrines the closer they come to the apostolic church which in fact protestantism does not even resemble.**
One reason the Protestants are so antagonistic at this point. But it is happening. Rejoice and pray for them.
**To be well-read in the Early Church Fathers is to cease being protestant**
BTTT!
**To be well-read in the Bible is to cease being Catholic.**
No it isn't. Catholics read the Bible too. We just believe the Apostle John, when he said that there was much more with chouldn't be written down at the end of his Gospel.
I'm sure you have read that? Correct?
Maybe. I remember reading how Fr. Neuhaus considered himself part of the Universal Church while still a Lutheran
Oh I'm sure repeating this makes ya feel all warm and cozy inside. The more I read church fathers and sages the more I wanted to convert to Judaism but I'm not gonna spike the football at the feet of someone who doesn't share my doctrinal beliefs. lol.
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