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Latinos find a new spiritual home, Pentecostal and charismatic churches drawing Catholics away
Star Ledger ^ | 12.18.06 | JEFF DIAMANT

Posted on 12/19/2006 6:37:07 PM PST by Coleus

The bongo drums and keyboard at Iglesia El Shaddai, a Pentecostal church in Elizabeth, are being played so briskly they can support a conga line. The El Salvadorian-born pastor shakes a tambourine, some women rock their hips and everyone sings praise to Jesus in Spanish. Soon, the pastor takes the service down a notch. But just a notch. With his eyes shut, Renato Castro shouts "Gloria, Jesus! Aleluya!" and paces before 300 people.

The worshippers, eyes also closed, shout as they feel the spirit -- the Holy Spirit -- moving them: "Oh, Dios! Dios!" "Gracias, Papa!" Lips tremble. Tears flow. In the first row, Evelyn Yax, 29, sways. Her right arm extends forward, her palm out. Her left arm clutches her 2-year-old daughter, Nathalie, to her bosom. Like most Latinos on a recent Sunday praying in this rented second-floor church space on Bridge Street, Yax was baptized Catholic. And like an increasing number of Hispanics, she left the Catholic Church to embrace an exuberant style of worship that she says brings her closer to God.

"I feel something special in this church," said Yax, a dental assistant born in Guatemala who, like many people interviewed for this story, said Catholicism in America lacks the appeal it once held in their home country. "In this church you feel Jesus is very close to you. You feel something in your heart, you feel something is weird." Pollsters say Catholicism remains the religion of choice for most Hispanics in the United States. But evangelical, Pentecostal and other charismatic churches are drawing an increasing number of worshippers away from their traditional choices.

(Excerpt) Read more at nj.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Religion & Culture; Worship
KEYWORDS: charismatic; evangelical; notcatholic; pentecostal; protestant
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1 posted on 12/19/2006 6:37:08 PM PST by Coleus
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To: Coleus

Let's pause for a moment to speak in a tongue:

LA LA HUH LA LA HOO LA LA LA VE LA!


2 posted on 12/19/2006 6:41:09 PM PST by ConservativeMind
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To: ConservativeMind

How dare you say that on a family website!!!!


3 posted on 12/19/2006 6:43:57 PM PST by escapefromboston (manny ortez: mvp)
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To: Coleus
But evangelical, Pentecostal and other charismatic churches are drawing an increasing number of worshippers away from their traditional choices.

It's not just a US thing. I went to Honduras this summer to build an Assembly of God church building. Over 100 new Assembly of God churches have been planted in Honduras in the past couple of years.

4 posted on 12/19/2006 6:44:01 PM PST by Onelifetogive (I don't have to show you no stinkin' tagline!)
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To: Coleus

All churches . . . which . . .

AS SCRIPTURE NOTES

"have a form of Godliness but deny the power thereof"

will be doing one or both of 2 things . . .

1. Withering into increased insignificance
2. Becoming part of the Globalist lowest commondenominator one size fits all . . . religion.

Yes, ALL KINDS of congregations with all kinds of doctrines have flaws and excesses--Pentecostal/Charismatic churches are no different on that score. And, given often enough various emotionally toned dramatic features of that sub-culture, flaws stick out all the more.

NEVERTHELESS, GOD DOES MOVE IN MIGHT AND POWER in and through such clusters of earnest believers . . . on average . . . FAR MORE than in other types of clusters of believers--something about FAITH AND EXPECTANCY probably plays a significant fact on that score.

And, mockers shall pay dearly for their mocking . . . increasingly . . . until the sorts of penalties dished out to the mockers of Moses becomes the norm in our era. I don't know when such penalties will start--but it will be in our lifetime and probably sooner than later.

There's plenty of warning in Scripture . . . though mockers usually pay not attention or have their own proof texts to jutify their mocking of those who believe diferently on the nonessentials.


5 posted on 12/19/2006 6:48:33 PM PST by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Quix

The Church will increase as it did in the beginning. Acts 9:31 "So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria enjoyed (was having) peace, being built up: and, going on in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, it continued to increase."
There is a balance, a functional Godly family balance. Haven't we all been praying for a revival? Why are we surprised when we see it?


6 posted on 12/19/2006 7:37:06 PM PST by huldah1776 (Worthy is the Lamb.)
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To: huldah1776

Good points.

I think both the darkness and THE LIGHT are becoming more intense and overt as the day of THE LORD'S return gets closer and closer.


7 posted on 12/19/2006 7:51:28 PM PST by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Coleus

"What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul?"


They probably got taken in with a sack of groceries or a bag of clothes.


Rather sad that they would forsake their Mother - the Blessed Virgin Mary!


8 posted on 12/19/2006 7:53:42 PM PST by Macoraba
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To: Coleus
"I feel something special in this church," said Yax, a dental assistant born in Guatemala who, like many people interviewed for this story, said Catholicism in America lacks the appeal it once held in their home country. "In this church you feel Jesus is very close to you. You feel something in your heart, you feel something is weird.

Substituting salvation by "feeling" for justification by faith. What happens when the mood magic ends?

9 posted on 12/19/2006 8:02:45 PM PST by lightman (The Office of the Keys should be exercised as some ministry needs to be exorcised)
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To: lightman

They are being seduced away because of their ignorance of the Catholic faith.


10 posted on 12/19/2006 8:03:44 PM PST by Joseph DeMaistre (There's no such thing as relativism, only dogmatism of a different color)
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To: Coleus

"El Shaddai, El Shaddai, El Elyon Na Adonai. We will praise and lift You high, El Shaddai!"


11 posted on 12/19/2006 8:06:41 PM PST by 185JHP ( "The thing thou purposest shall come to pass: And over all thy ways the light shall shine.")
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To: Macoraba

You really miss the point.
All of your posts have something to do with Mary.
Maybe you might think about how the lady said she felt closer to JESUS and that was a comfort to her.


12 posted on 12/19/2006 8:07:20 PM PST by Bainbridge
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To: Coleus

I wonder if like European and American Mainline Protestants, these new Hispanic Protestants' progeny will no longer feel the emotion that their ancestors originally sought in the Protestant churches and drift away from faith altogether. I think a sound catechesis in the well developed doctrine of the Catholic faith and the calm partaking of the Sacraments, prayer and devotions should lead to a faith with more staying power, although the Catholic Church in recent years has not valued its doctrine, sacraments or traditions enough to pass it on to future generations. So it's a conundrum...


13 posted on 12/19/2006 8:26:14 PM PST by Unam Sanctam
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To: Macoraba

Giving Mary the proper place Jesus gave her--the care of John--is hardly forsaking her.

Elevating Mary beyond what Jesus did is some measure of forsaking Jesus.

I don't wonder which God deplores more.


14 posted on 12/19/2006 8:36:24 PM PST by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Macoraba

JESUS, as Scripture makes clear,

is to be our ALL IN ALL in matters spiritual and essentially, otherwise. Any eroding of that is at best dangerous; on average heretical and at worst demonic.

Mary is not our mother. She was Jesus' mother and the mother of Jesus' half siblings, as Scripture makes clear.


15 posted on 12/19/2006 8:38:16 PM PST by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: lightman

Substituting salvation by "feeling" for justification by faith.
= = =

Poorly taught may make such an error. Nevertheless, it is HOLY SPIRIT'S JOB to lead all of us INTO ALL TRUTH--to whatever degree we are WILLING AND FAITHFUL TO FOLLOW HIM THERE!

All manner of feelings in other denominations lead folks into all manner of errors as well. I've seen it plenty. But the FEELINGS are invested in stereotypic intellectual biases, rigidities, pride hooks etc. vs demonstrative actions . . . therefore, THE ASSUMPTION IS that the intense feelings in behalf of intellectual errors and hogwash ARE OK.

Hogwash.


16 posted on 12/19/2006 8:40:53 PM PST by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Joseph DeMaistre

No. Many well educated, trained priests are shifting religious affiliations as well--BASED ON

THE POWER OF GOD THEY SEE IN THEIR OWN AND OTHER'S LIVES

vs a more sterile, more dead

form of Godliness denying the power thereof.

There are Charismatic Roman groups who COULD offer a similar vibrant, alive, powerful, authentic, more intimate and more intense connection to God. I don't know why they aren't there and having a similar impact.


17 posted on 12/19/2006 8:42:57 PM PST by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: 185JHP

AMEN!


18 posted on 12/19/2006 8:43:17 PM PST by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Quix
No. Many well educated, trained priests are shifting religious affiliations as well

First, that current works both ways. There are a considerable number of Protestant ministers becoming Catholic with the help of groups such as the Coming Home Network (http://www.chnetwork.org/). Second, I fail to see how any priest that understands what he does and who he is as a priest could step into apostasy and leave the Church. These priests you're speaking of might be "well-educated," but they certainly are still ignorant of their Catholic faith.

THE POWER OF GOD THEY SEE IN THEIR OWN AND OTHER'S LIVES
vs a more sterile, more dead
form of Godliness denying the power thereof.

What do you mean? This is jargon that to me, coming from a non-Pentecostal non-Charismatic background doesn't explain anything. To me, as a devout Catholic, there is nothing more sterile and dead than the lack of the Eucharist in every Protestant church... even the most beautiful architecture or powerful sermon leave me with a feeling that there is something, or better put Someone, that is missing.

a similar vibrant, alive, powerful, authentic, more intimate and more intense connection to God.

Still sounds like it's all about how worshiping makes someone feel to me... and it still sounds like Catholics who don't know their faith being drawn to a worship style that entertains them and suits their feelings, away from worship that has great meaning but that they don't understand.

19 posted on 12/19/2006 9:30:23 PM PST by GCC Catholic
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To: GCC Catholic
but they certainly are still ignorant of their Catholic faith.

No. Not at all. Some have been most devout and earnest in their Roman practices and beliefs for decades.

They just have the spiritual maturity and horse sense to realize that Holy Spirit if above a LOT of other STUFF, sources, authrotities etc.

What do you mean? This is jargon that to me,

Over the decades, I've rarely observed that words, discussion, intellectual presentation will do much to make that clearer except in rare, exception cases.

It may be that if one asks God PERSISTENTLY, EARNESTLY, REPEATEDLY TO GIVE THEM ALL OF HIMSELF THAT !!!!HE!!!! WISHES, that then, eventually or soon or immediately, He will . . . in ways and timing of HIS choosing. THEN and often only then, will they understand.

Still sounds like it's all about how worshiping makes someone feel to me... and it still sounds like Catholics who don't know their faith being drawn to a worship style that entertains them and suits their feelings, away from worship that has great meaning but that they don't understand.

NO! But that's a common rationalization, in my experience.

20 posted on 12/19/2006 9:39:52 PM PST by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Quix

ooops NOT IF

Holy Spirit IS above a LOT of other STUFF . . .


21 posted on 12/19/2006 9:40:42 PM PST by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: GCC Catholic

Naysayers typically make an initial ASSUMPTION that is extremely hazardous.

They ASSUME that HOLY SPIRIT CAN'T be truly, really, actively, overtly involved in the hear and now in the ways described.

They ASSUME so for a variety of reasons which are usually designed to protect the status quo of their belief system and cosmology. Some may just not want the bother of adjusting their construction of reality. Some are deathly fearful of letting go the old just because it's old and traditional and thereby comforting in it's familiarity.

Others just believe Holy Spirit CANNOT be actively, overtly operating in individual lives a la Acts 2 in this era BECAUSE THEY HAVE DECREED IT IMPOSSIBLE or believed someone who's so decreed it.

However, Scripture indicates that ascribing things Holy Spirit is doing as apostacy is a very hazardous thing to do.

AND IF

Holy Spirit is truly involved, then folks would be idiots to not get on board.

GOD IS, AFTER ALL, GOD ALMIGHTY.

HIS GAME IS THE ONLY GAME IN TOWN. HE ALONE IS WORTHY ALL HONOR, SUBMISSION, FOLLOWING, JOINING IN.


22 posted on 12/19/2006 9:45:08 PM PST by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Coleus

This has been going on in Houston for years. Latinos and Pentecostalism fit together like a hand in gloves. (No, not like OJ's gloves).


23 posted on 12/19/2006 9:46:03 PM PST by BnBlFlag (Deo Vindice/Semper Fidelis "Ya gotta saddle up your boys; Ya gotta draw a hard line")
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To: Quix
It may be that if one asks God PERSISTENTLY, EARNESTLY, REPEATEDLY TO GIVE THEM ALL OF HIMSELF THAT !!!!HE!!!! WISHES, that then, eventually or soon or immediately, He will . . . in ways and timing of HIS choosing. THEN and often only then, will they understand.

Amen! It's His call. And sometimes He even gives without asking...

"But Isaiah is very bold and says: 'I was found by those who did not seek Me; I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me.'" -- Romans 20:10

24 posted on 12/19/2006 10:20:27 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

QUITE SO. QUITE SO.

Mercifully.

THX.


25 posted on 12/19/2006 10:27:51 PM PST by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Quix
I don't believe that the Holy Spirit CANNOT do these things that you say; however, I am suspicious when I find (at least what I believe to be) error in the theology that these same groups hold to be true. For that reason, I have no reason to believe that any of these churches are any more true than the Catholic Church. Theology trumps all; if a church is teaching error, then it should be avoided.

Is that to say that God isn't working in these Charismatic/Pentecostal churches at all? No, certainly it isn't.

Please be aware, the Catholic Church has always taught that God is "actively, overtly operating in individual lives." And there are scores of miracles and wonders to verify that. Sometimes this Divine Work is dramatic a la Acts 2, but often it is far more subtle.

Please don't think that I don't believe that the Holy Spirit at times chooses to work through speaking in tongues and other charismatic ways. I've been to Festivals of Praise at the University of Stuebenville (a Catholic college steeped in the Charismatic movement), and I've seen some of these things take place.

26 posted on 12/19/2006 10:58:45 PM PST by GCC Catholic
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To: Coleus

Interesting. Thank you, Coleus for posting this thread.

jm


27 posted on 12/20/2006 3:22:46 AM PST by JockoManning (http://www.wordoftruthradio.com)
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To: Coleus

This is awful news.


28 posted on 12/20/2006 3:34:35 AM PST by napscoordinator
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To: Coleus
My boss (from Brazil, and 3rd generation Baptist) talks about this. He said that many people in Brazil and disillusioned with the Roman Catholic Church because the perception is that it is the religion of the "rich". So many are turning to the Assembly of God type folks.

Part of it is also there are not that many priests there. If you live in a smaller city or village, you will not have a priest every Sunday. But the new churches have pastors there all the time.
29 posted on 12/20/2006 4:19:37 AM PST by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: GCC Catholic; All; Alamo-Girl; airborne; American in Israel; AnimalLover; auggy; backhoe; ...

Am aware of your markedly above average respect for what Holy Spirit is and may be doing in various venues. Praise God for that.

Re: if a church is teaching error, then it should be avoided.

ALL DO. One might even go so far as to say that all teach something very troubling. All groups are, after all, human in a list of ways. I could certainly emphasize the same thing of the typical, traditional Roman organization.

I think that's one reason I respect HEALTHY, BALANCED "Charismania." Holy Spirit slices through all the stuff, all the garbage; all the humanness and declares Godly truth in Love. That's priceless in any group focused on God enough for Holy Spirit to be free and to choose to manifest His operations within said group(s).

Trouble is, like most things human and religious--we want to standardize, package, manage, manipulate, CONTROL HIM.

And, of course, He will have none of that, and the distancing or pervision or whatever cracks appear in the situation and deterioration sets in.

I think that's one reason I've been so in awe of the . . . what is it . . . A______ something or other . . . a College in the Eastern USA . . . where 2-3 times over the decades Holy Spirit has fallen and folks have gone rushing to the front repenting and seeking God and 24 hour prayer meetings have gone on for weeks and months.

I think the Welsh Revival in an earlier century was the same--as long as HOLY SPIRIT was managing it . . . HE DID GREAT THINGS, DRAMATIC THINGS. When the flesh had to be in charge, He pulled back.

And the flesh takes many forms from acting out grand-standingly-dramatic pretending to be Holy Spirit to being a wet blanket pretending to be Holy Spirit.

Beyond the Basics, I don't respect theology and doctrine that much any more. My sense is that Christ didn't either. The Pharisees had doctrine and even Scripture memorized to the nth degree and got it all wrong in the essentials.

I'd rather get the essentials of Loving God and others; doing unto others . . . The Virgin Birth; Resurrection, Coming again . . . the basics . . . get those right and trust the rest to God to sort out IN HIS TIME and way(s).

Try reading Romans in THE MESSAGE version. Especially around the 12-14th chapters or so. Paul makes the priorities fairly straight forwardly clear there. And it's not the layers upon layers of detailed, proudly studied etc. doctrine. It's RELATIONSHIPS IN THE LORD, FOR THE LORD, ABOUT THE LORD--NOT for the organization; about the organization; NOT for doctrine; about doctrine.

Except you come as little children, you shall in no wise enter the kingdom of Heaven. Little children are not into doctrine. They are into hugs and being close to DADDY. And DADDY Loves that.

And, I think, that's the essence of the best of "Charismania."


30 posted on 12/20/2006 4:59:01 AM PST by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: redgolum

Interesting.


31 posted on 12/20/2006 5:00:12 AM PST by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Quix
I think I'm starting to understand what you're saying (and certainly having slept in the meantime helps)

Except you come as little children, you shall in no wise enter the kingdom of Heaven. Little children are not into doctrine. They are into hugs and being close to DADDY. And DADDY Loves that.

I think that for many many years, most Catholics had no concept of this. For too long, it was "pay, pray, and obey" and we as of late have paid dearly for it. A few of us are starting to get it... at least dimly.

Thank you for an interesting conversation. I apologize if I seemed confrontational or dense; It was just hard for me to get my mind around what you were saying, because it's just different than what I'm used to.

32 posted on 12/20/2006 5:46:28 AM PST by GCC Catholic
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To: Quix

I agree with your assessments. I don't know much about the Catholic faith, but I feel comfortable enough to say I don't understand the extreme emphasis on Mary instead of Jesus, and I don't personally accept anyone as my Holy Father except the Almighty God in Heaven, and I don't believe someone has to light a candle and pray to Mary or to "pay my way" to keep me out of purgatory or hell when I die. That's all I've ever heard about the Catholic faith and I could be completely wrong in my observations.

I think that in ANY denomination whether it be Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, Pentecostal, etc.... we must all, every one of us, be faithful in our prayers, Bible study, and meditations so that we are not lead astray by any preacher, priest, minister, Pope, etc. Because bottom line is, these people are just that, human, and not beyond sin. And that's not to say be distrustful of members of the clergy, but don't take their word and interpretations of scripture as total truth. We must pray for understanding from God about what we are being taught at church.

Jesus is the only way to God and having a relationship with Him will guide our way if we let Him.

That's my take anyway.


33 posted on 12/20/2006 6:08:02 AM PST by redlocks322
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To: GCC Catholic; Quix

It is hard for all of us.

I love studying theology. For me, it is an act of worship. I love God, and part of my nature is that I want to study what I love. But you can study and debate theology so much you forget the love of God.

Now theology is important, very much so. But my departed grandfather taught me more about God, love, and duty that the couple dozen books about theology I have laying around the house. Christianity is not just something we know, but is something we are. Hell has a lot of people who knew all about Christianity and not much about Christ.


34 posted on 12/20/2006 6:10:11 AM PST by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: Unam Sanctam
"I wonder if like European and American Mainline Protestants, these new Hispanic Protestants' progeny will no longer feel the emotion that their ancestors originally sought in the Protestant churches and drift away from faith altogether."

I couldn't agree more. I heard a radio commercial this morning encouraging Christians to donate money so that Latin American Christians (read: Evangelical Protestants) can be "armed" to combat the "spiritual darkness" that surrounds them. I was struck by the commercial's claims that "the church" in Latin America is growing by leaps and bounds in recent years. It irks me to no end when American Evangelicals completely ignore the established Church in places like Latin America, refusing to cooperate with the efforts of the Catholic Church in the region and preferring, instead, to use language that indicates the area is completely pagan. In similar fashion, I get my feathers ruffled whenever I hear about our local Campus Crusade group which organizes regular mission trips to (where else?) Venice, Italy(!!!)

I'm not at all arguing that all Catholics are perfect Christians, but why not concentrate longterm efforts of "church-planting" on areas of world that are truly in spiritual darkness? Places like parts of Asia, Africa and the Middle East? Though it is rarely spelled out, plans such as these missionary trips to Italy and Latin America smack of a spiritual elitism which views Catholics and non-Christians alike with the same hungry eyes of prostylization.

Now, I should also point out the fact that before many of the post-Vatican II liturgical reforms, many Catholic faithful in these countries (esp. Latin America) were much more resilient to the efforts of Pentecostal and Evangelical "missionaries." I theorize that at least part of the reason for the blossoming success of Pentecostal and Evangelical church-planting efforts over the past 30 or so years may lie in the fact that poorly catechized Catholics look at the worship services of these groups and look at their own parish Masses and (with the possible exception of frequent communion) see very little differences. In fact, in putting on worship services which deemphasize the sacramental economy, mystery and a sacred separation from the outside world, Evangelicals and Pentecostals do a MUCH better job. The modern Masses of most Catholic parishes in Latin America (or anywhere else, for that matter) look like they're trying to play catch-up to these groups in worship. But the Catholic faith is severely weakened when the Sacraments are deemphasized and mystery is exchanged for the worldly and mundane. Combined with pitifully poor catechesis, many, many Latin American Catholics have become religious free agents and as such have begun "church shopping." Their Catholic priest is emphasizing the same things (in worship and theology) that the "new kids on the block" are advocating. But, with years of experience and American dollars behind them, the new kids (American-style Evangelicals and Pentecostals) are much better at it and present a much more polished version of this folksy "me-and-Jesus" flavor of Christianity.

Sorry to rant, but I wonder if anyone else sees it this way... BTW- I am not anti-Vatican II, so please don't read that into my comments. As one who grew up as a Southern Baptist and converted (along with my wife and her sister) to the Catholic Church as a young adult, I do, however, believe in the truthfulness of the saying "Lex orandi, lex credendi" ("the law of prayer is the law of belief"). We pray (and worship) as we believe and we believe as we pray (and worship). I think the Catholic Church is now realizing the disastrous effects that near-complete liturgical freedom on the parish level is having on the faith of the Church and of her members. I pray that our Holy Father is on track to "reform the reform" and return some of the holiness and mystery to the regular parish Mass. Being set apart from our Protestant brothers and sisters in this way, is a good thing.
35 posted on 12/20/2006 6:42:56 AM PST by DogwoodSouth ("Thou art Peter, and on this rock I will build My Church..." (Mt 16:18))
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To: Macoraba
Rather sad that they would forsake their Mother - the Blessed Virgin Mary!

Biblical Christians are happy to waltz along in 3/4 time, praying to God the Father in the name of God the Son and in the power of God the Holy Spirit. That's not good enough for non-Biblical Christians, who have an urge to move goddess the Mother into proximity to the Blessed Trinity. After all, if God won't answer your prayers, just ping His mother!

36 posted on 12/20/2006 6:47:14 AM PST by TomSmedley (Calvinist, optimist, home schooling dad, exuberant husband, technical writer)
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To: Unam Sanctam
I might also add that although widespread ignorance about even the existence of Orthodox Christianity among many American Evangelicals keeps the Orthodox name off the lips of those with the aforementioned missionary zeal, I have listed to at least one Baptist missionary to Russia speak who was in Russia to convert it's inhabitants to "Christianity." He told the story of one woman who began attending the Baptist church he had started, explaining that, before he came, she thought that (his words:) "lighting candles in front of painted idols was worshiping God."

So, Catholics are not alone in this treatment in the worldwide mission field. Once again, sorry to rant, but in the face of an incessant threat from Islam, the last things that Christians need to do is to are: a) not recognize and respect the historic Church (Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian) b) expend valuable resources on missionary efforts to largely Christian countries while investing much less time and money on missionary efforts to the Islamic Middle East, etc.
37 posted on 12/20/2006 6:54:14 AM PST by DogwoodSouth ("Thou art Peter, and on this rock I will build My Church..." (Mt 16:18))
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To: TomSmedley

"That's not good enough for non-Biblical Christians, who have an urge to move goddess the Mother into proximity to the Blessed Trinity. After all, if God won't answer your prayers, just ping His mother!"

Ouch! Don't worry, Tom. Mary prays for you, too! ;-)

Hey, BTW - can you (or anyone else) tell me how to post other's quotes in italics or something besides just quotation marks. I can't figure it out. Thanks in advance.


38 posted on 12/20/2006 7:03:48 AM PST by DogwoodSouth ("Thou art Peter, and on this rock I will build My Church..." (Mt 16:18))
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To: DogwoodSouth

Use the capital comma and capital period keys to bracket your i for italics at the beginning of the piece you want to italicize. Use capital comma, lower case question mark (slash), i, and capital period to un-italicise the following text. However, once you start using html code, you'll need to end each paragraph with a p in the angle brackets. Try it, you'll like it.


39 posted on 12/20/2006 7:11:00 AM PST by TomSmedley (Calvinist, optimist, home schooling dad, exuberant husband, technical writer)
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To: TomSmedley
Try it, you'll like it.

Thanks!

40 posted on 12/20/2006 7:16:06 AM PST by DogwoodSouth ("Thou art Peter, and on this rock I will build My Church..." (Mt 16:18))
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To: Quix

ASBURY College . . . the revival site.


41 posted on 12/20/2006 8:37:14 AM PST by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Quix

Amen, and dittos.


42 posted on 12/20/2006 8:37:29 AM PST by Bainbridge
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To: GCC Catholic

No sweat. I can understand.

Am very blessed by your spirit and kind reply.

God's best to you and yours.


43 posted on 12/20/2006 8:37:51 AM PST by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: redlocks322

Well put, imho.


44 posted on 12/20/2006 8:38:23 AM PST by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: redgolum

True. True.


45 posted on 12/20/2006 8:38:48 AM PST by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Bainbridge

Thanks.

Blessings to you and yours this CHRISTmas.


46 posted on 12/20/2006 8:40:29 AM PST by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: GCC Catholic

A very gracious post.
Thank you for it.


47 posted on 12/20/2006 8:43:10 AM PST by Bainbridge
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To: redgolum

I, also, am thrilled to study, serious theology, Biblical exegesis, and analytical history.
However, this cannot be what Christianity is truly about.
Otherwise, how would we "come as a child". The danger is the sin of Pride, I think you all call it taking over,as in all honesty, just how many are interested in or have the facility so to deal in these "lofty" areas.


48 posted on 12/20/2006 8:46:47 AM PST by Bainbridge
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To: Quix

Power of God. Gimme a break. Pentacostalism is nothing but empty emotionalism.

Even Protestants such as Hank Hanegraaf say Pentacostalism is heresy. Don't forget that Satan can appear as an Angel of Light and deceive the elect.

If it were up to me, the Charismatic movement in the Catholic Church would be suppressed and anathematized.


49 posted on 12/20/2006 8:55:21 AM PST by Joseph DeMaistre (There's no such thing as relativism, only dogmatism of a different color)
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To: Joseph DeMaistre

Ascribing to satan what is treuly of Holy Spirit is Scripturally an exceedingly hazardous deed.

There's plenty of mostly emotionalism in AND OUT of the Charismatic Movement in all denominations in behalf of all kinds of errors and non-errors.

But the authentic is priceless and blessed.

It was not emotionalism that picked my friend's car up and sent her safely on down the road late at night when she came up over a hill on a semi-blocking the road with her at the high speed limit. The next moment she was on the other side of the wrecked semi, going on down the road between the deep cut in the hills.

It was not emotionalism that has dramatically healed a number of FREEPERS.

It was not emotionalism that laid a huge masculine hand on my shoulder at a despairing moment in my life--I thought it was a very tall church member named Bart. But no one was around for at least 25-30 feet when I turned around to speak to him.

It was not emotionalism that raised the praying Chinese wife and mother's husband from being dead 3 days beside the road--raised him back to healthy life. She had been preaching beside his body that Jesus was going to do that--and HE did.

There's a supervising Mexican preacher in Northern Mexico who will not even consider a candidate for ministry until that candidate has had several bona fide validated resurrections under his fledging ministry.

It was not emotionalism when my friend drove around for several weeks on empty when normally she couldn't go 5 blocks.

But the "routine" miracles common to the better Charismatic groups will pale in comparison to the "routine" that's not too far off.

GOD WILL ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES WILL BE SCATTERED. AND ALONG THE WAY, THE DARK WILL GET DARKER AND THE LIGHT LIGHTER.

GOD WILL NOT allow the enemy all the dramatic events, counterfeit junk.

GOD AND HIS MIRACLES WILL MAKE THE OLD TESTAMENT AND NEW TESTAMENT MIRACLES SEEM TAME BY COMPARISON TO WHAT IS AHEAD IN OUR ERA.


50 posted on 12/20/2006 9:12:32 AM PST by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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