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Progress: Benedict and Bartholomew to Meet Again
National Catholic Register ^ | December 24, 2006 | EDWARD PENTIN

Posted on 12/20/2006 7:56:17 AM PST by NYer

VATICAN CITY — In what theologians are describing as a highly significant gesture, Pope Benedict XVI and the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople are considering a proposal to attend the next round of joint Catholic-Orthodox theological discussions in 2007.

According to sources at the Ecumenical Patriarchate, the two leaders are examining the possibility of personally opening the next session of the Catholic-Orthodox Joint International Theological Commission, expected to be held in Ravenna, Italy.

The panel of 60 experts has become the focus for improved Catholic-Orthodox relations after a successful meeting in Belgrade in September — the first time members of the commission had met in six years.

Metropolitan John Zizioulas of Pergamon, one of the Orthodox co-chairmen of the commission, said Dec. 7 that details had not yet been finalized but “there is a will on both sides.”

Metropolitan Zizioulas said the presence of the Pope and the ecumenical patriarch, who is regarded as the spiritual leader of the Orthodox Church, would be “very significant,” as it would demonstrate the significance both men attach to the dialogue.

Metropolitan Zizioulas said it would also give members of the commission “moral support” and offer the Holy Father and Patriarch Bartholomew “the opportunity to put some questions to us, which would be a very good thing.”

According to sources at the Ecumenical Patriarchate, the proposal was made by Bartholomew during Benedict’s recent visit to Istanbul. The Pope has reportedly approved it in principle and Cardinal Walter Kasper, president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, is also thought to support the idea.

The joint commission was suspended for six years (2000-2006) after members failed to bridge the gap on key differences, particularly regarding the status of the Eastern  Catholic Churches that reached full communion with Rome in the 16th century.

Under Stalinist rule, these Churches suffered repression and their property and congregations were placed into the custody of the Orthodox Church. But after the collapse of the Soviet Union, Eastern-rite Catholics pressed forcefully for restitution of their churches and property.

In the ensuing disputes that arose, Catholics were accused of aggression and proselytizing among the Orthodox by leaders of the Orthodox Church, particularly Russian Orthodox Patriarch Alexei II.

As well, the Orthodox have always regarded the formation of Eastern Catholic Churches, which they refer to as “Uniate Churches,” as a grave historical injustice that created a permanent wound in the Orthodox Church.

“The Unia has brought about new divisions, tearing the One Body of the Orthodox Church,” the Theological Commission of the Russian Orthodox Church declared in a 1997 statement. “The four centuries of its maintenance have revealed it as a dangerous form of proselytism against Orthodoxy.”

Despite the commission’s restart, the issue remains a point of contention.

As recently as Dec. 5, Patriarch Alexei renewed the accusation of “proselytism” and complained of what he described as the “extremely unfriendly policy” of the Catholic Church. Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, the Vatican’s Secretary of State, denied the allegations, saying that relations with the Russian Orthodox Church were “sufficiently good” and that visits and discussions were continuing.

Another contentious issue revolves around the exercise of papal authority and the nature of the Petrine ministry. Despite the suspension of the commission’s work, however, some significant advances have been made in this area thanks to a Catholic-Orthodox symposium in 2003 hosted by Cardinal Kasper.

The symposium noted a greater openness to a papal “ministry of unity” in today’s fragmented world. And some participants, most notably Metropolitan John, spoke favorably of a “universal primacy” that the Orthodox Churches could accept as long as it did not undermine the ecclesiological integrity of any local church.

Hopes have been raised of further progress on these sticking points due to Benedict’s high standing among Orthodox leaders. Despite their opposition to his decision earlier this year to drop the papal title of “Patriarch of the West,” many of them esteem him as a theologian.

They also note that, as a German, Benedict is without the historical baggage that hampered Pope John Paul II, as a Pole, in his dealings with the Russian Orthodox Church.

Vatican officials are cautiously optimistic about the dialogue.

“It’s always good to remember that it’s only been 40 years that the Churches have been open to each other,” said one official. “Not everything is going to be clear in a short time.”

The official acknowledged the “great gestures and signs” of the meeting between the Pope and Patriarch Bartholomew in Istanbul, but added, “We need time and patience, and they also with us — it’s reciprocal.”

Father Bernard Albertrauch, director of the Ostkirchliche Institut (Eastern Church Institute) in Regensburg, Germany, believes the presence of Benedict and Bartholomew would be an important gesture but not vital to furthering Catholic-Orthodox dialogue.

“We are essentially one Church already, we’re sister Churches — it’s not like relations with the Protestants,” he said.

After working on Catholic-Orthodox relations for 40 years, Father Albertrauch looks for incremental progress rather than dramatic breakthroughs.

“I don’t hope for anything special except to draw nearer and nearer towards a dialogue of life,” he said. “In the Church, things are not for television but for the heart, so we look more at a dialogue of life, of living together, facing the good and difficult things of life together, rather than placing too much significance on ‘spectacular’ meetings.”


TOPICS: Catholic; Ecumenism; Orthodox Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; goc; orthodox; patriarch; pope; roc

1 posted on 12/20/2006 7:56:20 AM PST by NYer
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To: Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...

2 posted on 12/20/2006 7:57:29 AM PST by NYer (Apart from the cross, there is no other ladder by which we may get to Heaven. St. Rose of Lima)
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To: NYer

More good news. God bless my Orthodox brothers and sisters! God bless Benedict XVI!


3 posted on 12/20/2006 8:00:14 AM PST by Antoninus ( Rudy McRomney as the GOP nominee = President Hillary. Why else do you think the media loves them?)
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To: NYer
Ut unum sint!

According to sources at the Ecumenical Patriarchate, the two leaders are examining the possibility of personally opening the next session of the Catholic-Orthodox Joint International Theological Commission, expected to be held in Ravenna, Italy.

great choice of location for the talks

4 posted on 12/20/2006 8:07:07 AM PST by Nihil Obstat (viva il papa)
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To: NYer
“We are essentially one Church already, we’re sister Churches — it’s not like relations with the Protestants,” he said.

*************

Oy. :)

5 posted on 12/20/2006 8:08:14 AM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: NYer

Prayer for unity.


6 posted on 12/20/2006 8:13:53 AM PST by Aquinasfan (When you find "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible, let me know)
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To: Aquinasfan

Ecumenism between Catholics and Orthodox is on a completely different plane than with Protestants.


7 posted on 12/20/2006 8:57:57 AM PST by Joseph DeMaistre (There's no such thing as relativism, only dogmatism of a different color)
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To: NYer
Thanks for posting this NYer. It is important to feel that we are essentially one Church, since both have the same Apostolic authority, valid priesthood, and sacraments. Nothing like that exists between the Protestants and Catholics or the Orthodox.

Metropolitan John [of Pergamon], spoke favorably of a “universal primacy” that the Orthodox Churches could accept as long as it did not undermine the ecclesiological integrity of any local church

This may seem like a novelty to the Catholics, but the Met. is merely echoing what the Greek side never opposed. The Seven Ecumenical Councils attest, implicitly and explicitly, that there is universal primacy in the Pope of Rome. One must not confuse primacy with jurisdiction.

8 posted on 12/20/2006 12:14:55 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: NYer
Apparently, not all Orthodox are thrilled about the prospect.

Greek Orthodox Monks in Violent Clash

9 posted on 12/20/2006 1:06:34 PM PST by marshmallow
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To: marshmallow

"Apparently, not all Orthodox are thrilled about the prospect.

Greek Orthodox Monks in Violent Clash"

Yes, well we all have our screwballs, don't we.


10 posted on 12/20/2006 2:55:45 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: kosta50; NYer

Kosta is right. Universal primacy has never been an issue.

By the way, the understandable cautionary tone of the commentators notwithstahnding, this is VERY VERY BIG! While not an Ecumenical Council in any sense of the words, the fact that the EP and the Patriarch likely will jointly preside over a collection of Catholic and Orthodox theologians is "religious world" shaking.


11 posted on 12/20/2006 2:59:01 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: crazykatz; JosephW; lambo; MoJoWork_n; newberger; The_Reader_David; jb6; wildandcrazyrussian; ...

Orthodox ping. This is very big news.


12 posted on 12/20/2006 3:00:31 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis
I like it! I think this is excellent news.

Sadly, there are many laypeople I know of (in my own church community) whom consider the Catholic church to be heretics. I, personally, find this view to be absolutely repugnant. I am a firm believer that we MUST find a way to come together. We must work out the differences that are very real and join together. Christianity must unite in this ever more dangerous world we are living in.

May God bless Pope Benedict VXI, Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholemew (and ALL the Orthodox Patriarchs around the world).

13 posted on 12/20/2006 3:47:15 PM PST by blinachka (Vechnaya Pamyat Daddy... xoxo)
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To: Kolokotronis

Ya! Things have been going rather smoothly and nobody wants to jinx it. Meanwhile, the Turks provide comic relief by reminding us, again, that they don't recognize Bart as EP. :)


14 posted on 12/20/2006 4:04:53 PM PST by monkfan
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To: kosta50

Brother:

Please explain what you mean. What comes to mind when I read your post, is that Pope Gregory the Great specifically rejected the title, "Universal"........


15 posted on 12/20/2006 4:32:57 PM PST by TexConfederate1861 ("The Union, next to our liberty, most dear!" John C. Calhoun)
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To: Kolokotronis

Brother:

Are you saying that Orthodox that oppose reunion with Rome are "screwballs"?

Maybe the problem here, is that they (The Monks) want to see real substance, rather than words. I myself, feel the same way.


16 posted on 12/20/2006 4:37:02 PM PST by TexConfederate1861 ("The Union, next to our liberty, most dear!" John C. Calhoun)
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To: NYer

This is good news. Yet EP is first among eaqual, so a "deal" must be agreed with all Ortodox Churches, Russian, Serbian, Bulgarian etc.
And that must be followed by practical steps, not only words.

Complicated issue is that all other Ortodox Churches are (politicaly) rivals with EP, Russian is first to be rival. So ecumenizm must not lean only on EP.
Ortodox world is not working like Vatican, and EP is just honorary title. All Ortodox Churches must be included.


17 posted on 12/20/2006 4:40:52 PM PST by kronos77 (-www.savekosovo.org- and -www.kosovo.net- Save Kosovo from Islam!)
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To: blinachka

Differences DO need to be worked out, but not at the expense of an Ecumenical "kumbaya" feel good solution.

There are more serious problems here than you seem to realize. I am all for reunion, PROVIDED that all of these issues are addressed FULLY. You also cannot expect the bad feelings and injustices of the last 1000 years to go away overnight, just because the Pope and the EP are making nice.


18 posted on 12/20/2006 4:41:55 PM PST by TexConfederate1861 ("The Union, next to our liberty, most dear!" John C. Calhoun)
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To: TexConfederate1861

Latin saying "Orient parla, Roma scriba" (East is talking, Rome is puting the words on paper) is quite oposite nowdays.
"Roma parla, Orient scriba", Rome is talking, but East wants deeds rather than speaches.

Ortodox Churches are versatile and just to say about situation in Serbia. Serbs want to see deeds of Vatican not just words. I would like to see one Christian Church, yet There are major unresolved issues back from WWII and even reacent wars in Balkans where Serbs and Serb Ortodox Church belive that Vatican played role of adversary.
Good thing is that Serb Ortodox Church wants reconciliation and most of Serbs concider pope Ratzinger as positive character, and supports his defiance against islamisation of Europe.

But, I expect no breaking news before Vatican makes certain steps. Those are left for the visdom of Pope.


19 posted on 12/20/2006 4:48:18 PM PST by kronos77 (-www.savekosovo.org- and -www.kosovo.net- Save Kosovo from Islam!)
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To: TexConfederate1861

"Are you saying that Orthodox that oppose reunion with Rome are "screwballs"?"

Oh heavens no! I, however, know all about these monks nearly up close and personal from Mt. Athos and my involvement with "stuff" on the Holy Mountain. They are a disobedient, cultish group whose "causes", to an extent, have been highjacked by certain "para-ecclesial" non-canonical groups both in Greece and here.


20 posted on 12/20/2006 5:23:26 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis; kosta50; Carolina
the fact that the EP and the Patriarch likely will jointly preside over a collection of Catholic and Orthodox theologians is "religious world" shaking.

Coming from you, K, I will accept your assessment of the situation and rejoice :-) Hallelujah!!!

I recall your initial reaction following the election of Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger to the papacy. You liked his "theosis". It is not even 2 years since that great day.

Following his election, I recall certain media labeling him an 'interim' pope, fully anticipating a short and meaningless papacy. It has been anything but! When he traveled to Turkey last month, the forum Catholics set up prayer threads, fully anticipating some crazed Muslim would kill Pope Benedict XVI. We believe that God is in control but, hedged our bets on the Pope's life through our prayers. Not only did he come through unscathed, the media have now altered their view of him as one who can traverse the divisions that separate Muslims from Christians.

Is it just me or do you also see the Holy Spirit at work through this man?

21 posted on 12/20/2006 6:28:45 PM PST by NYer (Apart from the cross, there is no other ladder by which we may get to Heaven. St. Rose of Lima)
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To: NYer

"I recall your initial reaction following the election of Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger to the papacy. You liked his "theosis". It is not even 2 years since that great day."

I had read much of the then Card. Ratzinger's writings and having heard him speak right after his election, I knew I was hearing the words of the most patristic thinking pope in 1000+ years. Since then I have become more and more convinced that we may well be hearing the words of a "Father" of The Church. And when he speaks to the universal Church, he speaks in the words of an Eastern Father. I think that's why so much of canonical Orthodoxy is taken with him in a way that they never were with +JPII.

"Is it just me or do you also see the Holy Spirit at work through this man?"

I don't think there is any doubt of that, but remember, the HS will have to work among the Orthodox hierarchs, clergy and laity too. So far it looks pretty good but the Russian Church will be a tough nut to crack for all sorts of, frankly, good historical reasons. For now, the HS seems to be working with the EP too, as it was his idea that he and +BXVI preside over the dialog at which all the Orthodox Churches are represented.

Like I said, this is truly astonishing.


22 posted on 12/20/2006 7:15:18 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: kronos77

"Complicated issue is that all other Ortodox Churches are (politicaly) rivals with EP, Russian is first to be rival. So ecumenizm must not lean only on EP.
Ortodox world is not working like Vatican, and EP is just honorary title. All Ortodox Churches must be included."

K, the Patriarch of Serbia hosted the meeting of the dialog this past Fall in Belgrade. All the canonical Orthodox Churches are represented.


23 posted on 12/20/2006 7:18:36 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: TexConfederate1861; blinachka

"Differences DO need to be worked out, but not at the expense of an Ecumenical "kumbaya" feel good solution."

But the dialog was cut off for several years, much to the dismay of the kumbaya crowd over the Uniate issue. Nobody is afraid to tackle the real issues which divide us because no one wants another False Union of Florence. It is also the reason that the biggest impediment to any further dialog is being discussed in these meetings, namely the proper exercise of the Petrine Ministry. Without a resolution of that, all other theological and ecclesiological discussions become intellectual exercises in wasting time.


24 posted on 12/20/2006 7:23:40 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis; kosta50; Carolina; Salvation
Like I said, this is truly astonishing.

Might I dare to suggest that we combine all our 'ping' lists for this great event and join our prayers for Pope Benedict XVI and Patriarch Bartholomew I and ALL involved in this convocation. We can draw strength from St. Ephrem.


THE PRAYER OF SAINT EPHREM THE SYRIAN

O Lord and Master of my life,
take from me the spirit of sloth, despondency,
lust of power, and idle talk;

But grant rather
the spirit of chastity, humility, patience, and love
to thy servant.

Yea, O Lord and King,
grant me to see my own transgressions,
and not to judge my brother;
for blessed art Thou unto the ages of ages.

Amen.

25 posted on 12/20/2006 7:31:21 PM PST by NYer (Apart from the cross, there is no other ladder by which we may get to Heaven. St. Rose of Lima)
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To: Kolokotronis

With all due respect, some people have accused ROCOR of being the same...:)


26 posted on 12/20/2006 7:39:37 PM PST by TexConfederate1861 ("The Union, next to our liberty, most dear!" John C. Calhoun)
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To: Kolokotronis

We agree completely, brother :)


27 posted on 12/20/2006 7:41:52 PM PST by TexConfederate1861 ("The Union, next to our liberty, most dear!" John C. Calhoun)
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To: Kolokotronis; NYer; blinachka; TexConfederate1861; kronos77
the fact that the EP and the [Pope] likely will jointly preside over a collection of Catholic and Orthodox theologians is "religious world" shaking

It's a historic moment for sure, possibly the first. When was the last such meeting held? Anxieties of some aside, one must recognize at least that incredible efforts are being made to begin the end of our separation.

This is a glacier that has not moved, but rather solidified and grew larger in the last 1,000 years, and we are privileged enough to witness its reversal, no matter now small. The ice is melting.

I also agree with those who are cautious. Unless our theologians in secret reversed centuries of disagreement, our faiths remain depely divided along some very important and even crucial issues.

No re-union will be possible without resolution of these obstacles, and false ecumenism is not what we need. But we can at least treat each other as one Catholic and Apostolic Church, we can recognize our love and faith as genuine, and our division as our own failure.

Pope Benedict XVI said it very clearly that any re-union would not involve absorption of one side into the other. True re-union can only be mutual. Many people didn't think we could even get this far. And the Russian Church is right when it says that only 40 or so years have passed before we started cautiously speaking with each other on friendlier terms. This is not going to be a fast-faith drive-through!

Yet we witnessed the incredible: an Orthodox Patriarch raising the Pope's hand in arm embrace as if saying: we stand united even if are not one and the same (yet, again).

And those who caution that the Russian Church must not be neglected and that the EP is not the "spiritual leader" of the Orthodox world are also right. This must be an all-Orthodox affair and not just the EP. And any re-union will have to be made through the an All-Orthodox Synod and not through the EP alone. I am sure the Catholic side is very much aware of that.

But it is clear that the Vatican is dealing with Russia as well, and perhaps the level of that cooperation is not yet the same as that with the EP, the BUT the ice is melting!

Russian top Church officials have recently stated that the Orthodox and Catholics are allies. And we are.

I agree with Kolokotronis that this is "VERY, VERY BIG." Not only that, it is VERY, VERY GOOD too!

28 posted on 12/20/2006 9:34:26 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: TexConfederate1861; Kolokotronis; NYer; blinachka; kronos77
Please explain what you mean. What comes to mind when I read your post, is that Pope Gregory the Great specifically rejected the title, "Universal"........

Universal primacy is the recognition of Ecumenical Councils of the Bishop of Rome as primus, i.e. "first" in the whole Church. The stumbling block is (and was even then) what that entails and how does that translate into jurisdictional primacy.

The Church was organized synodally, with Ecumenical Councils being the proclamations of the Church, infallible, as the Church is, and binding. The East is still organized that way, but the West is not.

The Pope recognizes that. There is even talk of "pre Schism papacy." At any rate, this should not be understood as willingness on the Latin side to sell out what they earnestly believe any more than assuming that we will betray our convictions.

We must define a mutually-acceptable Petrine Ministry that will not be stifling, overwhelming or chauvinistic, imposing or desiring to lord over other Patriarchs, and yet to be the unavoidable and essential element in all Church decisions.

29 posted on 12/20/2006 9:48:35 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Kolokotronis

True. Serbian Patriarch and Serb Ortodox Church are supporters of reconcile, but same meeting of Pope and EP must be held also with Serb Ortodox Church.
Meeting must take place, wether it is in Serbia or abroad, that is less important.
It is not the same when cardinals are meeting and when heads of Churches meet

I was implying that EP is not "Pope pf all Ortodox" but Serbian patriarch is head of Serbian Church so meeting like with EP must be held with him aswell.

My whish is that all Christians must be reunited, and foremost, reconciled...


30 posted on 12/21/2006 2:13:38 AM PST by kronos77 (-www.savekosovo.org- and -www.kosovo.net- Save Kosovo from Islam!)
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To: kosta50

Most logical anwser and most acceptable solution will be a transformation of Catholic church and Ortodox Churrch in one Christian Church on same way like today Eastern Churches are organised:

- Pope will be a head of the Christian Church, but "First among eaquals".

Also it would help if next Pope of Christian Church would be Ortodox.

I belive that ecumenism is now mostley political question.


31 posted on 12/21/2006 2:18:27 AM PST by kronos77 (-www.savekosovo.org- and -www.kosovo.net- Save Kosovo from Islam!)
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To: kosta50

"Russian top Church officials have recently stated that the Orthodox and Catholics are allies. And we are."

I would like to compare ecumenism with marriage.

First two get to know eachother.
Than they find joint wiews and interests
Than they resolve any possible differences
Than they get to set mutual goals in life
Than they get married, but in same time forming one in the eyes God, they both remain separate individuals, yet joined in marriage.

We are allies, that is good news, but we also need to take (if we want more than alliance) visible steps and realy get together. Otherwise, all meetings will be futile


32 posted on 12/21/2006 2:26:37 AM PST by kronos77 (-www.savekosovo.org- and -www.kosovo.net- Save Kosovo from Islam!)
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To: NYer

Well, I hope this works out, but I wish that the Vatican would put this much energy into bringing some of our U.S. bishops back to the Catholic faith.


33 posted on 12/21/2006 2:31:04 AM PST by irishjuggler
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To: kosta50

If I remember correctly, the title was "primus inter pares"
or "first among equals"......


If that is where this negotiation is headed, it sounds good to me. :)


34 posted on 12/21/2006 4:17:20 AM PST by TexConfederate1861 ("The Union, next to our liberty, most dear!" John C. Calhoun)
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To: kronos77; kosta50
Also it would help if next Pope of Christian Church would be Ortodox

For that you must appeal to the Holy Spirit. It would also help to have some Orthodox, under the age of 80, elevated to the College of Cardinals.

During the last conclave, Lubomyr Husar of the Ukrainian Catholic Church stepped forward to read the oath before the Bible, then bent over and kissed the Holy Scriptures. This reverence is one familiar to us in the Eastern Churches but Latin Catholics who witnessed this were most impressed.


Lubomyr Cardinal Husar

35 posted on 12/21/2006 6:53:35 AM PST by NYer (Apart from the cross, there is no other ladder by which we may get to Heaven. St. Rose of Lima)
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To: kronos77; NYer; Kolokotronis; Agrarian; bornacatholic; sitetest; jo kus; annalex; FormerLib; ...
Most logical anwser and most acceptable solution will be a transformation of Catholic church and Ortodox Churrch in one Christian Church

No absoprtion and no morphing! The Church is One Catholic and Apostolic, the faith is One and Orthodox. The Church can be one only if it is Catholic and Orthodox in that context.

Also it would help if next Pope of Christian Church would be Ortodox.

All Popes prior to Great Schism were Orthodox (faith-ise, not rite-wise)! As to whether a Pope must be a Latin Rite bishop, ordianed Latin Rite priest, or anyone, I ask Catholic Freepers to clarify.

36 posted on 12/21/2006 2:43:09 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: NYer; kronos77
For that you must appeal to the Holy Spirit. It would also help to have some Orthodox, under the age of 80, elevated to the College of Cardinals

There was no such body in the Undivided Church. There was a Latin Patriarch's Synod. The Churhc would have to have a Synod of all Patriarchs, presided by the Pope, of course, but not controlled by him.

This reverence is one familiar to us in the Eastern Churches but Latin Catholics who witnessed this were most impressed

I believe it used to be, but it was lost. Having seen the Tridentine High Mass, a lot of that reverence and frequent signs of the cross and kissing of the priest's right hand was still part of the reverence of the Latin Church that has been since lost in the post-Vatican II period.

37 posted on 12/21/2006 2:48:24 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kronos77

There are serious theological issues that need to be resolved. It's not just a matter of holding hands.


38 posted on 12/21/2006 2:49:44 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: TexConfederate1861; kronos77; NYer; Kolokotronis; Agrarian; bornacatholic; sitetest; jo kus; ...
If I remember correctly, the title was "primus inter pares" or "first among equals"......If that is where this negotiation is headed, it sounds good to me. :)

The EP is currenlty primus inter pares among the Orthodox, since the Bishop of Rome is not sharing the same faith with the Orthodox Church. This is by default (according to Ecumenica Councils).

Although the EP has no jurisdiction and cannot lord over other patriarchs, he certainyl has many priviledges that cannot be circumvented or ignored.

He cannot do anything without the Synod, but the Synod also cannot do anything wihtout him!

I t's beautiful checks and balances that the Church devised long before America was even on the map! :)

39 posted on 12/21/2006 2:56:00 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50

"There was no such body in the Undivided Church. There was a Latin Patriarch's Synod. The Churhc would have to have a Synod of all Patriarchs, presided by the Pope, of course, but not controlled by him."

I had this exact conversation with my secretary's husband as I left the office tonight. He maintaioned that the Orthodox would be safe from any pronouncements from Rome because the Orthodox hierarchs would be represented on the Curia. I told him I thought that was bizarre in the extreme and suggested, if any such group were needed, it be exactly what Kosta has suggested. The Curia can do whatever it wants within the confines of the Latin Church. They can even elect the pope fo all I care.


40 posted on 12/21/2006 3:45:40 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: kosta50
Having seen the Tridentine High Mass, a lot of that reverence and frequent signs of the cross and kissing of the priest's right hand was still part of the reverence of the Latin Church that has been since lost in the post-Vatican II period.

Thank you, kosta, and may you have a blessed Christmas!

41 posted on 12/21/2006 4:07:58 PM PST by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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To: kosta50

Amen my Brother. Merry Christmas to you & Yours!


42 posted on 12/21/2006 4:40:09 PM PST by TexConfederate1861 ("The Union, next to our liberty, most dear!" John C. Calhoun)
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To: kosta50
As to whether a Pope must be a Latin Rite bishop, ordianed Latin Rite priest, or anyone, I ask Catholic Freepers to clarify.

First off, the bishop must be a 'Cardinal' and under the age of 80 to vote in the Conclave. In the 2005 Papal Conclave, there were several 'Eastern Catholic' voting members (like Cardinal Husar) and others who have exceded the voting age and served as observers.

Ultimately, it is the Holy Spirit who chooses the successor of St. Peter. That is and has always been our faith. Pope Benedict XVI is an excellent example of this.

43 posted on 12/21/2006 8:32:48 PM PST by NYer (Apart from the cross, there is no other ladder by which we may get to Heaven. St. Rose of Lima)
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To: kosta50; Pyro7480
I believe it used to be, but it was lost. Having seen the Tridentine High Mass, a lot of that reverence and frequent signs of the cross and kissing of the priest's right hand was still part of the reverence of the Latin Church that has been since lost in the post-Vatican II period.

Perhaps one has to dig deeper into RC history to find this but in my lifetime (which predates VCII), I don't recall any of what you mention.

In the Eastern Catholic Churches, the norm is for the priest to make profound bows before the Blessed Sacrament. Genuflection is a western (i.e. Latin) tradition. During the Pope's visit to Turkey, I watched the Patriarch's Divine Liturgy and felt quite comfortable (except for the distribution of communion), with the traditions exhibited. Like the Greek Orthodox Church, the Maronite Catholics use incense at every divine liturgy and also in the novenas celebrated. When the bishop comes to visit, those invited to proclaim the Readings do so only after they have asked for the Bishop's blessing and kissed his ring.

Again, I don't recall this in the RC Church as part of the Mass but perhaps I wasn't paying close enough attention.

44 posted on 12/21/2006 8:42:56 PM PST by NYer (Apart from the cross, there is no other ladder by which we may get to Heaven. St. Rose of Lima)
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To: NYer; Pyro7480
You may go back and check out the video you posted (I believe) of the Traditional Easter High Mass in 1944.
45 posted on 12/22/2006 6:26:37 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: NYer

This is good news, but as I pointed out in my reaction to the joint communique released by Pope Benedect and Patriarch Bartholemew on the occasion of the Pope's visit to Constantinople, the joint statements coming from meetings in which the Slavic churches are involved always seem weightier and more like real progress toward union, even if they aren't so warm in tone.


46 posted on 12/22/2006 11:42:53 AM PST by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know. . .)
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To: Kolokotronis
... the fact that the EP and the Patriarch likely will jointly preside over a collection of Catholic and Orthodox theologians is "religious world" shaking.
Religious global warming : )
47 posted on 12/22/2006 1:21:45 PM PST by eastsider
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