He Was an Evangelical Christian Until He Read Aquinas

Peace, Ottofire.

Christ promised He would "not leave us orphans" and that "the gates of hell" would not prevail against the Church. We were promised, and received, the Holy Spirit to explain to us the meaning and the tremendous implications of all these truths handed on to us by the Apostles.

So if the Christian Churches from Oslo to Carthage and from Iona to the banks of the Indus were wrong about all this for a little matter of 1500+ years, I'd have to look askance at those promises of His.

But He is faithful: come let us adore Him.

Great big blessings to you and all your loved ones!

--Christ promised He would "not leave us orphans" and that "the gates of hell" would not prevail against the Church. We were promised, and received, the Holy Spirit to explain to us the meaning and the tremendous implications of all these truths handed on to us by the Apostles.

Not arguing that. He also says that the saved are always such and cannot lose their salvation, but the Catholic is in constant fear of committing a mortal sin and going straight to hell even if they are true believers. So this and much more tells me the Catholic Church has it wrong and I must look elsewhere for the truth.

--So if the Christian Churches from Oslo to Carthage and from Iona to the banks of the Indus were wrong about all this for a little matter of 1500+ years, I'd have to look askance at those promises of His.

Did you list the heretical Orthodox faith in your geographic tour of Catholicosity? They do not agree and use the same traditions that the RCC does. They and the RCC squirm and twist and try to say that they do not REALLY disagree, but when the rubber hits the road there is conflict over the infallible traditions and the schism remains.

And then there is the many schisms inside the RCC. I do not know how many times I hear Catholics here on FR complain about Mahoney (?) of the LA archdiocese, and how they would rather be in Mel Gibson's version, which is not accepted as orthodox, in this century at least. Not to mention, which I admit I do often, the pro-abortion Catholics, the married priests, the homosexual priests, the Marian cultists, those that bury poor St. Anthony upside-down in a pagan ritual, those that venerate pieces of toast or water-stains of Mary that give their venerators prophesies. There is not one unified RCC. Just a bunch of Catholics that stick around because they got the Keys of Peter sticker of approval.

The use of scripture as the basis of faith is pointed to in the scriptures. The use of oral traditions is GENERALLY NOT.

Jesus taught from the scriptures and rebuked Satan with them. Peter said Paul's writings are scripture. Luke wrote to teach Theophilus the truth to be differentiated from the oral teachings. Yes, there are some positive mentions of traditions but those are few and far between. Even your church teaches that the Scriptures are inspired and complete. They just do not use them for anything other than verse picking to defend their authority. Notice which verses, not chapters or books, but verses the RCC has infallible interpretation for.

Anyone willing to take a crack at Luke 1 or the meaning of the word Magnify in the Magnificat? Still looking for any takers...I guess I need to make that my tagline...

Man, I am still getting into another topic...I think this is going to be the last for a while as my eyes are threatening to burst. Getting sick on Christmas is just awful. I do not recommend it for any that are thinking of trying...

--Hello again, I was referencing your doubts about the Catholic Church being the true Church. Sorry if I got too complicated. But one thing just supernaturally leads to another.

And another, and another... I just wish you Catholics will just take numbers so I can answer all your challenges ONE AT A TIME! And you in the back! Quit pushing! There is plenty of Reformed butt here to take a bite outta. Wait yer turn!

Now to answer your statement of the True Churchness of the RCC-
The Jews had the prophets, but then the Pharasees and Saducees who had the Scriptures, fell away to rely on their own traditions, and so too did the RCC lose their guidance of the Church of Christ. And again the Spirit inspired the Reformation to bring the True Church back. I will not say that my denomination is the part and parcel of the True Church. I can say with certanty that those the stick with the teachings of the Reformers, except that nasty killing the anti-anabaptists thing, are part of the True Church. Many I believe even in the Catholic Church will be saved, DESPITE its teachings.

--What about all those Christians who had no Bible and/or couldn't read? Are they lost?

Ephesians 1:11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will (KJV)

The Bible is not the way to salvation, it only shows the way. Only being born from above (or born again, a pox on the holy rollers who killed that phrase for use!) through the submission to the Lord Christ Jesus is the way to salvation. Those that do not hear the word or read it, or hear of Christ Jesus simply cannot be Christians. But those that God selected will hear the Gospel. Those that don't will not get justice for their rebellion. (Oh boy, hear the Synergists grind their teeth! Good thing my ears are stuffy or I would need earplugs!)

All those that God has selected will be saved, and nothing can pluck them from His hand. God has a plan and all His children have been for-known and for-loved from before the beginning by Him, and His Spirit will find them no matter where they hide, no matter how foul and atrocious their sins.

And yes, we are commanded to be the means of spreading the word, so we cannot just sit back and let someone else do the work. So the Spirit through the Scripture demands!

May God bless you and keep YOU at least healthy this season. As for me, I take this sickness as a test of character. And since I am Reformed, I know that I will fail...*sigh* :o)

(Boy, so much for thinking this would be a short post before a nap!)

Jesus warns us repeatedly that not those who abandon His way, but only those who are faithful to the end, will be saved:

Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mark 13:13
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Jesus wouldn't warn us so seriously about "enduring" if it didn't matter whether we endured or not. At least, that's the way St. Paul sees it, because he says:

1 Corinthians 9:27
But I keep my body under subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be cast away.

1 Corinthians 10:12
Let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Philippians 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

I don't think Jesus ever said, "Don't worry about offending God. You can be as wicked as you like because, hey, you're saved." You wrote: "Did you list the heretical Orthodox faith in your geographic tour of Catholicosity?"

AWell, yeah. The Catholic Church doesn't hold that the Orthodox are heretics, just that they're separated from us by schism. My own opinion is that this schism was precipitated by conflict and incomprehension in politics and culture much more than by a repudiation of faith and morals.

And then there is the many schisms inside the RCC.

As for Mahony, Mel Gibson, pro-abortion Catholics and all the rest: none of this is germane to the teaching of the Church, all of which are true. Mahony may be corrupt, Gibson is not in communion with the Church, and pro-abortion Catholics are in grave sin. The fact that they do not live and teach as the Church teaches, does not make the Church wrong!

When Christ was crucified, he was betrayed by Judas, denied by Peter his right-hand man, and the rest of the Twelve (except for John) abandoned Him and high-tailed it to the high grass. If sin invalidated the truth of the Church, then the Church was dead on arrival.

All the things you listed, show the error of those who fall away from the teachings of the Church, and not the error of the Church.

--Jesus warns us repeatedly that not those who abandon His way, but only those who are faithful to the end, will be saved:

Yup, something referred to as saving faith as opposed to false faith as mentioned in...er... somewhere in the Epistles I think. (Lol. Mind cloudy. Fading fast!) Those that will be saved are foreknown, and the word for known is translated from the same word that Adam did to Eve to get kids. Also translated as fore-loved, as in an intimate relationship. Just as Jesus told the Pharisees that He did not know them, thus they were indeed going to Hell.

--I don't think Jesus ever said, "Don't worry about offending God. You can be as wicked as you like because, hey, you're saved."

Did I ever say that? Please give me references so that I may clarify. Perhaps talking of the Spirit saving those no matter how atrocious their sins were? Once the Spirit turns their hearts of Stone, hateful to God, to hearts of Flesh, able to love God and do His will, that person will start on the road of sanctification, and the Golden Chain from Romans that ends in glorification. If God wants that person saved, that persons faith will be saving faith. Everything happens according to His will, and His will is totally done, every jot and tittle, every flower and sparrow lives and dies when He commands it.

This allows the believer to see that all the horrors of this world are here for a purpose, sin is used to shape events and people, and is not just random bits of Hell that happens to us. Katrina and the Holocaust were to shape history. God allows evil to exist and uses it to His end and glory. Otherwise why does God allow it? Is He not all loving and all powerful? Why will some never hear the word and go straight to Hell? Why does God allow the modern Herod, the Abortion Movement, to exist? Why did He demand the Israelites to kill the tribes that occupied the Chosen Land? Is that fair? Is that justice? All to His purposes. Otherwise God allows something He cannot control? Predestination allows the believer to see the OT and the NT as the continuing story. Otherwise it almost seems like there are two Gods, like the Gnostics believed.
Starting to get off topic...sorry. Okay, not starting, more like Running away from topic. What was the topic? Lol!

--As for Mahony, Mel Gibson, pro-abortion Catholics and all the rest: none of this is germane to the teaching of the Church, all of which are true. Mahony may be corrupt, Gibson is not in communion with the Church, and pro-abortion Catholics are in grave sin. The fact that they do not live and teach as the Church teaches, does not make the Church wrong!

I would think that the Pro-abortion types do in fact IF allowed to stay inside the RCC would make it wrong. And that is a big sticking point that many inside the RCC would agree with me. Still awaiting der Pope to get on the ball on this. Thousands are dying a day.

--If sin invalidated the truth of the Church, then the Church was dead on arrival. All the things you listed, show the error of those who fall away from the teachings of the Church, and not the error of the Church.

Well, I was illustrating the unified RCC is not so unified. I understand that as fallen beings, anything we do is tainted, thus we tend to fail even holding to our faith at times. That is what is so hard to argue with some that will not even admit that their church can anything but infallible. Churches being made up of people will do as the people do. Thus the whole child molestation by the RCC priests, and thus false teachers the likes of Haggard and Swaggart getting such big followings.

Too much. Rambling all over. Sorry.

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