Posted on 01/05/2007 1:37:38 PM PST by Carolina
POPE BENEDICT XVI has spoken by telephone to a number of French bishops to persuade them to accept a wider use of the Tridentine Mass, it has been claimed.
The Pontiff brought French bishops who oppose the Tridentine Mass "to a reluctant but decisive change of view", according to the Priestly Fraternity of St Peter (FSSP), an organisation of Old Rite priests that the Pope strongly supports.
It is widely expected that a papal document will soon be released to allow priests to celebrate the Tridentine Mass – using the pre-Vatican II 1962 Latin Missal – without the explicit permission of the local bishop, though probably only in the low-key setting of a "private" celebration. The document, which will be released motu proprio, or on the Pope’s own initiative, has caused concern among bishops in France, where traditionalist groups are particularly active.
But efforts by the French episcopate to "torpedo" the initiative have failed, according to Videre Petrum, the FSSP’s British newsletter.
"It is said that the mild but persuasive words of Pope Benedict, who personally spoke by telephone to many of the most intransigent enemies of tradition among the bishops of France, worked a sort of miracle, and brought them to a reluctant but decisive change of view, or at least to a recognition of the limits of disobedience," the newsletter said. Cardinal Jorge Medina Estevez, a former prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship, said last month that the Vatican’s Ecclesia Dei commission had discussed the document and would pass on its conclusions to the Pope.
The cardinal added that he did not expect the commission, set up in 1988 to oversee Vatican relations with traditionalists, to discuss the document any further.
Commentators say priests will be allowed to celebrate the Tridentine Rite without permission at "private Masses" that would be nevertheless be open to the public.
The proposed reform would put pressure on the bishops of England and Wales to adopt a more welcoming stance towards the FSSP, which currently has only two priests based in London.
Catholic ping!
by Sophie de Ravinel (translation by The New Liturgical Movement)The pontifical document is awaited with a certain fear in France, where the bishops expressed their reservations. Ardently desired by Pope Benedict XVI and begun in the autumn, the reconciliation of the Catholic Church with the Lefebvrists should take a decisive step at this beginning of the year 2007 with the awaited publication of a papal decree freeing up the Mass of St. Pius V. We could thus see the appearance in the parishes of France Masses according to the Latin rite in force before the 2nd Vatican Council.
How many churches exactly will adopt the Old Mass, in parallel with the actual rite? It is impossible to foresee. But the pressure of the minority traditionalists, active and demanding, should be strong in certain places, in particular in Paris. The Pope for a long time has thought of putting an end to the schism of 1988. Why leave separated from the Church hundreds of priests and thousands of faithful, while at the same time we preach dialogue with other religions?
It is without doubt in France, where mistrust in regard to the traditionalists remains strong, where Benedict XVI's plans have the most barriers to overcome. ...
Catholic ping!
Prayers for Pope Benedict. God bless him and help him.
There's an FSSP parish in our archdiocese. Great people, godly priests.
He is only asking the bishops to do what they should have done thirty years ago, which is to accomodate the feelings of the faithful. Unfortunately, the reforms were rammed down the throats of the faithful. As the pope has said, the people got the feeling that the divine liturgy was, after all, only the work of men. How many Catholics were led to abandon the Church by this radicalism? My guess is that many of those who turned to evangelicalism were seeking some rock to cling to and found it in the Bible only dogma.
I've noticed that the liberals in the church tend to be passive-agressive types. That type in the hierarchy worries me more than muslims. Prayers for the Pope on this First Friday.
I would probably faint dead away if I got a call from B16.
I hope these Bishops felt the same.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6AOvStZS64
"Traditional Latin Mass filmed on Easter Sunday in 1941 at Our Lady of Sorrows church in Chicago. The film presents the ceremonies of the Missa Solemnis or Solemn High Mass in full detail with narration by then-Mgr. Fulton J. Sheen. Celebrated by Rev. J. R. Keane of the Order of Servites (hence the white habits and cowls), the ceremonies are accompanied by a full polyphonic choir, orchestra, and fifty Gregorian Chanters."
Thanks again!
You're welcome!
Hello, Mom!
Amen to all that, and don't you know a lot of our squirelly(sp?) American liberal Catholic bishops would go slam bang into cardiac arrest if any of THEM got such a phone call!
Dennis
Bump to myself for later viewing.
Makes me recall this by Pope St. Gregory the Great:
"At that hour of the Sacrifice, at the words of the Priest, the heavens are opened, and in that mystery of Jesus Christ, the choirs of Angels are present, and things below are joined to things on high, earthly things to heavenly, and the service is both a visible and an invisible event."
Amen!
Rumours, rumours, rumours.
I'm STILL (not really, but play along) from Missouri.
SHOW ME.
Viva Il Papa! I love this Pope!
+
If you want on (or off) this Catholic and Pro-Life ping list, let me know!
It's good news!
Robby, with all due respect, this has absolutely nothing to do with the feelings of the faithful. They are not in charge of the Church. That is what is done in protestant sects, who do things based on their own interpretations and "feelings."
It is an attempt by this Pope to bring the Church back to Catholicism that has been since it began. Not what was reinvented in the last 40 years.
Thanks, Carolina. I saw this today on Rorate Caeli and then checked out Father Zuhlsdorf's "What Does the Prayer Really Say" blog. He is facetiously asking what the name of the Motu Proprio will be since they are usually named for the first three or four words of the text. One wag in the comments said "Bring the Massa I Missa" or some such.
The thought had been that this would come before January 15th since that is when the Apostolic Exhortation on the Eucharist is to appear. Perhaps it is coming on Sunday? Who knows? It has been a long wait. Fr. Z. has all his cohorts ready and is asking for an immediate email if anyone sees the text posted anywhere on the internet. Soon, then???
F
http://www.ecclesiadei.org/video.htm
I have a VHS of this video which comes with a booklet containing the full rubrics of the Tridentine Mass. Other tapes are available from sources like the Wanderer (Una Voce) which also has a beautiful tape of the Tridentine Mass.
Frank
Deo gratias! I am bookmarking this thread on my home page!
By feelings, I mean the sensibilities of those people, especially the elderly, whose whole devotional life was tossed out of the window. The churches were stripped, and sometimes deformed. The "look," the "feel" or atmosphere of the churches changed. Quiet turned to noise. Elegence was replaced by tackiness. The bad music (in most churches) was replaced by awful guitar music. etc. I must admit that I myself was not appreciative of their loss of the past, because, naively, I thought that the reforms would becomes refined and improved. They only got worse.
I saw that...in Latin no less. LOL!
I'm really glad he's doing this, but my only question is why the heck the French bishops have so much power. They have "led" a church that has almost disappeared, everything they have done has resulted in fewer and fewer Catholics, and Islam is about to take over their country. Why should anybody care what they think?
I don't really know...but I suspect it has something to do with France being a stronghold of SSPX. Remember when Papa raised the Good Shepherd Institute with a couple of ex-SSPX priests? The Institute mission is to accomodate seminarians and priests leaving SSPX and allows them to celebrate the Tridentine Mass. This was in Bordeaux...boy, did the Bishop howl. They said something about it being divisive.
http://orbiscatholicus.blogspot.com/2007/01/buzz-from-rome-indult.html
Under the starry Roman sky I have some good news for everyone: the indult is here!
This is Dario Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos (born in 1929 and ordained in 1952) walking into the Vatican Basilica on New Years Eve. When asked about the indult what was his reply? "Subito."
Sonorous and majestic: it's the Tridentine Rite! Why the Tridentine Rite? The reply is simple: "Because it is our patrimony."
“…and we cannot understand the secluar history of modern Europe, unless we understand something of that long thousand-year process of change and growth which we name the Middle Ages. Those thousand years saw the making of Europe and the birth and rebirth of Western culture; they also witnessed the creation of that socio-religious unity that we call Christendom, and the gradual penetration of our culture by Christian beliefs and Christian moral ad intellectual standards. They have left an indelible imprint on both our social and religious life. They have helped to make us what we are, whether for good or for evil, and even those who know and care nothing about mediaeval religion and culture, are themselves the unconscious heirs of mediaeval traditions."
Can anyone explain what does "private mass publicly celebrated" mean?
I may be totally wrong, but let me have a "go" at this. The Holy Father is stating that if 30 parishioners ask their pastor to have a Tridentine Mass, he must accommodate them. They are asking for a "private Mass" therefore. However, it is held publicly and anyone may attend.
I spoke to a young and very dynamic priest the other day and he told me many young priests are dying to celebrate the Tridentine Mass and that YOUNG people are pushing for this (not archaics like me). Thus, by giving permission for a private Mass held in public, the Holy Father can get around the foot dragging of the Bishops many of whom may be against this.
Does it have to be asked each time it is celebrated, like a funeral mass, or is one time enough for a given time and day of the week?
No doubt what you are saying, but there is a larger problem within the Church that you are completely missing, the battle against liberalism.
Those within the Church who were/are "attached" to liberalism, have been a scourge for years. Popes have condemned it since the 1800's, and it came to fruition once the "New Order" mass was established.
I recommend reading some of the past encyclicals by Leo XIII, or St. Pius X, who spoke out against liberalism infecting the church. It goes far beyond feelings or sensibilities.
thanks for the ping narses! I'm bookmarking this thread as well!
I love il Papa! May God keep Benedict safe from his enemies and on the straight path to His Everlasting Truth.
. . . and everybody is so reverent, so concentrated, so focussed . . .
HIP HIP HURRAH FOR THE HOLY FATHER!!!
As far as I understand, a public Mass is one that is regularly scheduled. A private Mass publicly celebrated is one that is not on the regular schedule, but is open to the laity.
Very possible. Of course, the only reason France was a hotbed of the SSPX in the first place was because of the behavior of the modernist French bishops...so I can see why they'd be upset. I just don't understand what power they have. Their churches are already empty and they are selling French churches to the Muslims - so who cares if the French bishops are annoyed?
That said, I know the Pope doesn't want to quench the smoking flax. Although I'm not sure they're even smoking any more, and obviously, most of the French don't think so either.
So, if twhat is rumored is implemented, there must be a contingent of the faithful asking each time before they get a single Trindentine Mass?
This is progress, but it is very disappointing. The hope was certainly that upon a request a Tridentine Mass is scheduled weekly till a change warrants a reschedule or cancellation.
"As far as I understand, a public Mass is one that is regularly scheduled. A private Mass publicly celebrated is one that is not on the regular schedule, but is open to the laity."
That is my understanding. I am disappointed if Tridentine is only for private masses. I thought this was going to be for public tridentine masses. If this had been extended to public masses, then these could be scheduled at realistic times for Sunday mass. Seems to me, in the end, this will have little to no practical effect. All the hoopla has been over nothing.
LOL!!!!!
Thank you Monk for posting the video link.
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