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Liturgical Quiz (Roman Catholic (liturgy) Mass Abuses)
St. Mike ^ | Father Jeremy Driscoll

Posted on 01/23/2007 5:21:58 PM PST by NYer

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1 posted on 01/23/2007 5:22:01 PM PST by NYer
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To: Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...

No cheating! Your Guardian Angel is your witness ;-)


2 posted on 01/23/2007 5:23:01 PM PST by NYer (Apart from the cross, there is no other ladder by which we may get to Heaven. St. Rose of Lima)
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To: NYer

I am so making a copy of that and giving it to our parish priest!


3 posted on 01/23/2007 5:30:22 PM PST by SAMS ("I may look harmless, but I raised a U.S. MARINE!" Army Wife & Marine Mom)
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To: NYer

38 is no longer true - the extraordinary ministers may no longer purify the vessels.


4 posted on 01/23/2007 5:32:37 PM PST by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: All

What to do about Liturgical Abuses?

What can be done about liturgical abuses? First, know your rights. Inaestimabile Donum and Canon Law state:

"The faithful have a right to a true Liturgy, which means the Liturgy desired and laid down by the Church, which has in fact indicated where adaptations may be made as called for by pastoral requirements in different places or by different groups of people. Undue experimentation, changes and creativity bewilder the faithful. The use of unauthorized texts means a loss of the necessary connection between the lex orandi and the lex credendi. The Second Vatican Council's admonition in this regard must be remembered: "No person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove or change anything in the Liturgy on his own authority." [Sacrosanctum Concilium] And Paul VI of venerable memory stated that: "Anyone who takes advantage of the reform to indulge in arbitrary experiments is wasting energy and offending the ecclesial sense."[Paul VI, address of August 22, 1973: "L'Osservatore Romano," August 23, 1973.]

Canon 528 ß2: "The parish priest is to take care that the blessed Eucharist is the center of the parish assembly of the faithful. He is to strive to ensure that the faithful are nourished by the devout celebration of the sacraments, and in particular that they frequently approach the sacraments of the blessed Eucharist and penance. He is to strive to lead them to prayer, including prayer in their families, and to take a live and active part in the sacred liturgy. Under the authority of the diocesan Bishop, the parish priest must direct this liturgy in his own parish, and he is bound to be on guard against abuses."

Charitably approach your priest and, with the documents in hand from this site, explain that you require the Church's Liturgical rubrics be followed. If personal contact is difficult, try writing a letter and again include the referenced Church documents. If, after several attempts, the priest does not return to the Church's rubrics, report the priest to his Bishop. Should that fail, then find another properly celebrated Holy Sacrifice of the Mass to attend. Drive to the next diocese if you must. Isn't your worship of God worth it? If you must contact the Vatican to deal with liturgical abuse, then write to:

Cardinal Francis Arinze
Prefect - Congregation for Divine Worship
Piazza Pio XII, 10
Vatican City (Europe) 00120

Liturgical Abuse - Is Your Mass Valid?

5 posted on 01/23/2007 5:39:51 PM PST by NYer (Apart from the cross, there is no other ladder by which we may get to Heaven. St. Rose of Lima)
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To: AnAmericanMother

Thanks for posting the updated information.


6 posted on 01/23/2007 5:42:57 PM PST by NYer (Apart from the cross, there is no other ladder by which we may get to Heaven. St. Rose of Lima)
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To: SAMS
I am so making a copy of that and giving it to our parish priest!

Great idea! And while you're at it, why not distribute copies to the members of the Parish Council and ... especially .... the Director for Religious Education. She (or he) should appreciate the importance of knowing our Catholic faith.

7 posted on 01/23/2007 5:53:59 PM PST by NYer (Apart from the cross, there is no other ladder by which we may get to Heaven. St. Rose of Lima)
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To: NYer

Excellent post--will bookmark it...

got only 9 wrong out of 60...


8 posted on 01/23/2007 5:56:21 PM PST by rzeznikj at stout (Boldly Going Nowhere...)
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To: NYer

"True - a Directive issued by the Episcopal Conference of Bishops in the United States permits this practice."

Re: 38.
Since when does an Episcopal Conference have the authority to change the mandated rubrics without Rome's approval?


9 posted on 01/23/2007 6:14:27 PM PST by rogator
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To: rogator
Re: 38. Since when does an Episcopal Conference have the authority to change the mandated rubrics without Rome's approval?

38.  A deacon or other minister may purify (clean) the vessels instead of the priest.

Not sure I understand your question.

10 posted on 01/23/2007 6:22:42 PM PST by NYer (Apart from the cross, there is no other ladder by which we may get to Heaven. St. Rose of Lima)
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To: NYer

Great quiz! I missed 8. Bookmarking for later sharing!


11 posted on 01/23/2007 6:32:01 PM PST by fortunecookie (My computer is back!)
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To: NYer

Oh, this is too easy...unless you're a liberal V-II loving priest or "pastoral associate."


12 posted on 01/23/2007 6:43:54 PM PST by AlaninSA ("Beware the fury of a patient man." - John Dryden)
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To: NYer
22. The Vatican has issued guidelines encouraging people to hold hands during the "Our Father".

Can anyone tell me how this practice originated?

13 posted on 01/23/2007 6:55:19 PM PST by stop_fascism
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To: NYer
"48. False - individuals may never be invited to hold hands around the altar during the Consecration. (Notitiae 17)"

St. Cecelia's Church Boston, Father Unni presiding. I have never seen such a spectacle at Mass before. Hundreds of people walking wherever they please as they make their way to crowd behind the priest during the consecration.
What a scene. I walked out.
14 posted on 01/23/2007 7:01:39 PM PST by warsaw44
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To: NYer; rogator

i think what he's saying is along the lines of an episcopal conference changing parts of the Mass without first getting an OK from Rome...

IIRC, the Episcopal Conferences can adapt parts of the Mass--but it has to be approved by Rome (which is a fairly strict process in and of itself) and any change cannot fundamentally contradict or radically change the Mass.


15 posted on 01/23/2007 7:11:49 PM PST by rzeznikj at stout (Boldly Going Nowhere...)
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To: NYer

Simply went by what I have experienced through 21 years at an incredibly orthodox parish and scored swell. Great quiz, I'll pass it along....


16 posted on 01/23/2007 9:14:04 PM PST by mockingbyrd (Good heavens! What women these Christians have-----Libanus)
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To: NYer

bookmark for later printing. That hand holding during the Our Father really irritates me.


17 posted on 01/23/2007 9:19:26 PM PST by IrishCatholic (No local communist or socialist party chapter? Join the Democrats, it's the same thing.)
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To: NYer

Spoiler (and question)
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"the people may never join in with the "Through Him, with Him, in Him..." prayer"

Or, . . . . . . . what?


18 posted on 01/23/2007 9:19:45 PM PST by Larry Lucido
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To: NYer

" Not sure I understand your question."

My mistake.
I meant to cite "53. Women may join the 12 selected members of the parish to have their feet washed on Holy Thursday."
"53. True - a Directive issued by the Episcopal Conference of Bishops in the United States permits this practice."

Although I cannot find any such Directive, I question the Episcopal Conference's authority to change the liturgical rubrics without the approval of Rome.


19 posted on 01/23/2007 9:21:43 PM PST by rogator
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To: NYer
13. It is permissible to omit the Creed on a Sunday or solemnity if the priest chooses to do so.

Spoiler space
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Several Times during Saturday vigil Mass instead of the Creed we have had people renewing their wedding vows. Each time the priest (same one -- he says he loves weddings) explains that this is licit because it is a sacrament. I am confused, is he mistaken or am I not reading the question correctly?
20 posted on 01/24/2007 12:05:08 AM PST by Talking_Mouse (wahhabi delenda est)
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To: IrishCatholic; warsaw44; stop_fascism
That hand holding during the Our Father really irritates me.

Holding hands during the Our Father has become commonplace, but it is an illicit addition to the Liturgy. Clarifications and Interpretations of the GIRM ["Notitiae" Vol. XI (1975) p. 226] explains:

". . .holding hands is a sign of intimacy and not reconciliation, and as such disrupts the flow of the Sacramental signs in the Mass which leads to the Sacramental sign of intimacy with Christ and our neighbor, Holy Communion." 

(see link on comment #5)

21 posted on 01/24/2007 12:19:58 AM PST by NYer (Apart from the cross, there is no other ladder by which we may get to Heaven. St. Rose of Lima)
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To: NYer
A very timely post, NYer! :-) I have taken the liberty of putting the questions and answers together -- so they're all in one place and can be easily printed and distributed...

1.  It is permissible for the priest to change the word 'brethren' to 'brothers and sisters' in the Mass.

True - the priest is permitted to change the word "brethren" to "brothers and sisters". (GIRM 86, GIRM II).

2.  A lector may have the liberty to change the words of the Scripture Readings by eliminating all male references.

False - No one is permitted to change gender-related language or eliminate male references while reading Scripture.  (CIC 838, 846)

3.  A parish may change and revise words in the Creed during Mass, as long as they make note of the changes and show these changes in the Sunday missal which the public uses.

False - No words of the Creed are ever permitted to be changed or revised for any reason or under any circumstances.  (CIC 838, 846)

4.  At the conclusion of Mass, the lector or priest may make general announcements for the information of the parish.

True - general announcements may be made during the concluding rites.  (GIRM 139)

5.  A priest may give a 'general absolution' during the penitential rite of the Mass or during a communal penance service if he chooses to do so.

False - a priest may never give 'general absolution' as a substitution for individual confession during an ordinary Mass or under non-emergency circumstances.  (CIC 961)

6.  If the priest chooses to use the rite of blessing and sprinkling, he must omit the "Lord have Mercy" and the penitential rite.

True - the rite of blessing and sprinkling takes the place of the "Lord have Mercy" and penitential rite. 

7.  A Lector may use the NRSV version during U.S. Masses.

False - no lector (or anyone else) may use the NRSV of Scripture during any Mass, as it has not been approved by Rome for liturgical use.   (CIC 826, CIC 838).

8.  The priest may not omit the homily on Sundays or holy days of obligation.

True - a priest may not omit the homily on Sundays or Holy Days.  (CIC 767)

9.  The priest may not omit the homily at any Mass.

False - a priest may omit the homily on weekday Masses if they are not a Holy Day.

10.  An individual who is not a priest, deacon or bishop may not give the homily at Mass.

True - only an ordained minister (priest, deacon or bishop) may give the homily at Mass.  (CIC 766)

11.  Those non ordained ministers who assist in passing out Communion are properly called "Eucharistic Ministers".

False - the term "Eucharistic Minister" is to be avoided and has never been approved by Rome. (per Vatican Encyclical)

12.  A person who is not an ordained minister (priest, deacon or bishop) may give a 'talk' or 'reflection' in place of the homily at Mass.

False - a 'talk' or 'reflection' by a non-ordained minister may never be used in place of  the homily.  (CIC 766)

13.  It is permissible to omit the Creed on a Sunday or solemnity if the priest chooses to do so.

False - the Creed may never be omitted on Sundays or Holy Days.  (GIRM 44)

14.  The "Apostles' Creed" may be used in place of the "Nicene Creed" at a Mass for children.

True - The Apostle's Creed may be substituted for the Nicene Creed at a children's Masses only.  (GIRM 44)

15.  A priest must not omit washing his hands at the beginning of the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

True - the priest may never omit washing his hands at the beginning of the Eucharistic Liturgy.  (GIRM 52)

16.  The priest may say, "Lord, wash away our iniquities and cleanse us of our sins" (instead of 'my') in the hand-washing prior to the Eucharistic Liturgy.

False - the priest may not substitute 'our' for 'my' in the prayer asking for his sins to be cleansed prior to the Eucharistic Liturgy.   (Sacramentary)

17.  A bell is not required to be rung during the Eucharistic Prayer.

True - (technically), although the General Rites indicate that a bell usually should be rung, is entirely appropriate, and sometimes necessary. (GIRM 109)

18. At special occasions, the people may join in with the prayer:"Through him, with Him, in Him..." if the priest invites them to do so.

False - the people may never join in with the "Through Him, with Him, in Him..." prayer.  (ID 4)

19.  A priest may never use an unapproved Eucharistic Prayer.

True - only the Eucharistic Prayers approved by the Vatican are to be used in Mass.  (ID 5)

20.  The altar bread dough may not include ingredients other than flour and water.

True - only unleavened bread made from wheat flour and water in the preferred form of round wafers may be used.  (CIC 924)

21.  Communion in the form of ginger bread or a sweetened cake may be used at Masses for children.

False - Communion made from any substance other than unleavened bread, especially those which crumble, may never be used under any circumstances. (CIC 924)

22.  The Vatican has issued guidelines encouraging people to hold hands during the "Our Father".

False - The Vatican Document Notitiae   (Not 11 (1975) 226) stated the practice of holding hands during the Our Father   should be "repudiated". That means it should not happen, and should not continue.   (see also DOL 1502)

23.  The priest may omit the sign of peace during Mass if he so chooses.

True -  The actual wording is: : "Then the deacon (or the priest) may add: Let us offer each other the sign of peace." (Note "may" does not mean it is required)   (GIRM 112)

24.  The priest may move the sign of peace to another part of the Mass if he feels it is for the best.

False - the sign of peace may not be moved to any other portion of the Mass.  (GIRM 112)

25.  During the sign of peace, the priest may leave the sanctuary to exchange peace with the congregation.

False - despite wide-spread acceptance, the priest is prohibited from leaving the Sanctuary to exchange peace with the congregation.  (GIRM 136)

26.  Those non-ordained ministers who assist with distributing Holy Communion are called "Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion."

True - the term preferred by Rome is "Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion" - NOT "Eucharistic Minister."  (Vatican Encyclical - DOL)

27.  People assisting at the altar may receive Holy Communion at the same time as the priest.

False - The priest must always receive Holy Communion prior to those assisting at the altar.  (GIRM 116-117)

28.  Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion must be used at every Mass to ensure proper participation of the lay people.

False - Extraordinary Ministers should not be used at Masses when there are not large numbers of the faithful in attendance, unless the priest is physically unable to distribute Communion. (IC)

29.  A minister or Priest may refuse a person the right to receive the Eucharist on the tongue in the United States.

False - No one may be refused the right to receive the Eucharist on the tongue.  (AGI 240)

30.  A priest may not refuse an altar server the right to receive Holy Communion on the tongue.

True - altar servers, lectors and Extraordinary Ministers also have the right to receive the Eucharist on the tongue.  (GIRM 117)

31.  The priest may change the words of fixed prayers in the Mass upon approval from his bishop.

False - changing fixed prayers of the Mass is strictly prohibited for any priest, bishop or deacon.  (CIC 838)

32.  The chalice of Precious Blood may be left on the altar for the people to pick up and share from during lightly attended Masses.

False - the faithful are not permitted to 'self communicate' by picking up the chalice from the altar.  (HLS 47)

33.  An individual may dip his host into the Precious Blood instead of taking the Chalice to drink.

False - Communion by intinction (dipping the host into the chalice) must be done by the priest or Extraordinary Minister only (not the individual receiving)  and must then be administered on the tongue.  (HLS 45)  

34.  Communion may be distributed to Protestants during special occasions (like weddings and funerals).

False - Communion given to non-Catholics under normal circumstances is prohibited.  (CIC 844)

35.  Communion may be given to Protestants if they are the Heads of State or other dignitaries.

False - see above explanation.

36.  Children must receive First Confession prior to their First Communion.

True - it is prohibited for a parish to not allow children to make their First Confession prior to their First Communion.(QS)

37.  Precious Blood which is not consumed during Mass may be disposed of by throwing it down the sink or sacrarium.

False - any remaining Precious Blood must be consumed by the priest or attending Extraordinary Ministers.  (HLS 34, 36, 38)

38.  A deacon or other minister may purify (clean) the vessels instead of the priest.

True - a deacon or Extraordinary Minister may purify the vessels instead of the priest.  (ID 13-15)

39.  The chalice may be made of clay or silver.

False - chalices made of absorbent material or material prone to corrosion are prohibited.  (GIRM 291)

40.  A decorative basket may be used to hold Holy Communion.

False - the vessels used to hold Consecrated Hosts must be "noble, durable and sacred". (ID 16)

41. A cross must be on or near the altar during Mass.

True - a cross must be on or near the altar during Mass.   (GIRM 270)

42.  An image of the Resurrected Christ may be used in place of a cross on or near the altar.

False - an image of the Resurrected Christ may not be used in place of the cross on or near the altar.  (CMRR 64)

43.  The tabernacle may not be re-located to an out-of-the-way chapel, even if the pastor wishes to do so.

True - the Tabernacle should be 'placed in a part of the Church that is prominent, conspicuous, beautifully decorated and suitable for prayer' (Canon Law 938)

44.  It is permissible for a Church to be totally bare of any images of the Saints if the pastor deems it appropriate.

It is prohibited for a church to be devoid of any images of the Saints.  (GIRM 278)

45. People must always genuflect when passing in front of the Eucharist.

True - individuals must always genuflect when passing by the Eucharist, whether in the tabernacle or publicly exposed.  (GIRM 233)

46.  People are not required to kneel during the Consecration.

False - all are required to kneel until after the end of the 'Sanctus',  through the Consecration, until the Great Amen.   (GIRM 21, AGI 21)

47.  If there are no kneelers, the people may stand during the Consecration.

False - even if no kneelers are present, the faithful are still required to kneel during the above mentioned times, unless there is not adequate physical space to do so.  (DOL 1411)

48.   The priest may invite individuals to stand around the altar and hold hands during the Consecration  if it is a lightly attended Mass.

False - individuals may never be invited to hold hands around the altar during the Consecration.  (Notitiae 17)

49.  After Communion, people are free to stand, sit or kneel.

True - there is no required posture after receiving Holy Communion.  (GIRM 21)

50.  Dancing may be performed during any liturgical service, especially those with children.

False - dancing of any kind during liturgical services (in Western Churches) is strictly prohibited.  (Notitiae II 202-205)

51.  In America, blue may be used as a liturgical color  during Advent or Lent instead of purple.

False - it is not permissible to substitute blue for purple as a liturgical color. (GIRM 307)

52. It is required that crosses be veiled from Good Friday to the Easter Vigil.

True - Crosses and other images should be covered during this time. (PS 26)

53.  Women may join the 12 selected members of the parish to have their feet washed on Holy Thursday.

True - a Directive issued by the Episcopal Conference of Bishops in the United States permits this practice.

54.  All holy water fonts must be refilled with water which was blessed at the Easter Vigil.

True - the holy water fonts should be filled with water that was blessed during the Easter Vigil.   (PS 97)

55.  All holy water fonts must be covered during Lent.

False - directives state that only the cross and other images (i.e. statues) must be covered. The practice of covering holy water fonts only deprives the faithful of the indulgences they receive from crossing themselves with holy water upon entering and leaving church. (PS 26)

56.  While giving a homily, the priest may leave the Sanctuary and walk among the people if he so chooses.

False - the priest is actually prohibited from leaving the sanctuary while giving the homily. (GIRM 97)

57.  During the recitation of the Creed, all are required to bow or kneel during the lines "by the power of the Holy Spirit..."

True - although it is rarely done today, during the recitation of the Creed, all are required to bow or kneel at the words "by the power of the Holy Spirit..."  (GIRM 98)

58. If improper bread and wine are used, the Consecration may be invalid.

True - depending on how much of an abuse of approved materials occurred, the Consecration may be 'invalid'  -- that is the bread and wine remained bread and wine only, and did not become the Body and Blood of Jesus. (CIC 924)

59.  Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion must be of 'mature age' and 'outstanding piety".

True - directives for choosing Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion state that they should be of 'mature age' and 'outstanding piety'.   (DOL 2048)

60.  The wine must have a small amount of water mixed with it in order to be properly consecrated.

True - to be both validly and   licitly performed,  Consecration of the Precious Blood requires that a small amount of water be mixed with the wine.  (ID 8)


22 posted on 01/24/2007 4:52:17 AM PST by ConservativeStLouisGuy (11th FReeper Commandment: Thou Shalt Not Unnecessarily Excerpt)
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To: ConservativeStLouisGuy

Thanks!


23 posted on 01/24/2007 6:02:21 AM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: trisham

Welcome! :-)


24 posted on 01/24/2007 6:03:12 AM PST by ConservativeStLouisGuy (11th FReeper Commandment: Thou Shalt Not Unnecessarily Excerpt)
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To: NYer

Okay, get this. My parents' parish has dancers at the 11:00am mass. It's really quite horrid. The last time we were in Atlanta they made my husband and I attend the mass with them because we didn't believe them. It was worse than had been described. My poor father refers to them as the Vestal Virgins, I call them the Whirling Dervishes. At any rate, for an orthodox Catholic, it's like watching a train wreck.


25 posted on 01/24/2007 6:47:18 AM PST by Juana la Loca
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To: NYer

I've found a simple way to deal with the hand holding. I hold my rosary in my hands, clasp them together in a prayerful way, bow my head and close my eyes during the Our Father. It's amazing how effective that is....


26 posted on 01/24/2007 7:46:55 AM PST by Knitting A Conundrum (Act Justly, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly With God Micah 6:8)
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To: Larry Lucido
Or, . . . . . . . what?

They go to hell. Duh. ;-)

Seriously, it is an illicit practice, which means it is against the rules of the Church. And since we believe Jesus told us to listen to the Church to willfully and knowingly disobey would be a sin.

On this particular point, the idea is that the priest and the people serve two different functions. Some parts of the Mass are for the priest to say, some for the people and some together. This blurs the distinction between priest and laymen. It is the priest here offering the sacrifice on behalf of the people assembled.

27 posted on 01/24/2007 9:03:28 AM PST by SoothingDave (Are you on the list?)
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To: SoothingDave

Fair enough. :-)


28 posted on 01/24/2007 9:50:51 AM PST by Larry Lucido
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To: stop_fascism
22. The Vatican has issued guidelines encouraging people to hold hands during the "Our Father".

Can anyone tell me how this practice originated?

Data point: I first observed the practice in the late 1960s, when visiting at the home of a Protestant friend. Their version of "Grace Before Meals" was to recite the Lord's Prayer whilst holding hands.

29 posted on 01/24/2007 9:59:47 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: NYer

Copying for our Liturgy Committee!!


30 posted on 01/24/2007 10:08:53 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: NYer

Thanks for posting this.


31 posted on 01/24/2007 10:10:42 AM PST by diamond6 (Everyone who is for abortion has been born. Ronald Reagan)
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To: Knitting A Conundrum
Pray it Sister ;-0

(Now I'm tempted to post that 'blessing' picture from last year's LA gathering with Mahony. Please stop me!!)

32 posted on 01/24/2007 10:30:33 AM PST by NYer (Apart from the cross, there is no other ladder by which we may get to Heaven. St. Rose of Lima)
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To: NYer

I have a question not on the list. During Christmas we attended parish different than the one we usually attend. In all the Masses I have attended the priest pours wine into the chalice & then adds water. At this Christmas the priest had a two large cruets (more like bottles) for the water & wine. He mixed a couple of drops of the water from the bottle into the bottle of wine & then distributed the wine into the chalices. Is this acceptable?


33 posted on 01/24/2007 10:50:49 AM PST by gubamyster
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To: NYer

How long before this becomes a Catholic bashing thread?


34 posted on 01/24/2007 11:11:05 AM PST by ichabod1 ("Liberals read Karl Marx. Conservatives UNDERSTAND Karl Marx." Ronald Reagan)
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To: stop_fascism

They probably got it from AA meetings and thought it was a nice touch.


35 posted on 01/24/2007 11:14:18 AM PST by ichabod1 ("Liberals read Karl Marx. Conservatives UNDERSTAND Karl Marx." Ronald Reagan)
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To: Talking_Mouse

He is MISTAKEN. They can renew their vows all they want but like Baptism, Holy Matrimony can only happen one time with one spouse.


36 posted on 01/24/2007 11:17:19 AM PST by ichabod1 ("Liberals read Karl Marx. Conservatives UNDERSTAND Karl Marx." Ronald Reagan)
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To: NYer

Excellent post!

Just a thought on the Orans position during prayer. I don't think I saw it during my read.

http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/orans_posture.htm


37 posted on 01/24/2007 11:20:46 AM PST by franky (Pray for the souls of the faithful departed.)
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To: SoothingDave

I believe it is ok, nee encouraged for individuals to mouth the words of the mass silently along with the Priest. At least I have read this in the rubrics of the latin mass booklet.

But you bring me to something that is fast becoming a pet peeve of mine. The crossing of the forehead, lips, and heart before the Priest or Deacon reads the Gospel. I used to think it was a fine thing to do, but I read a thread a while back that said it was nothing but aping the reader like a monkey. That made sense to me because why would I cross MY lips when somebody else is about to read. So, I cross myself while everybody else does the whole pantomime. I just wonder if it is required to do that.

I figure this comes from Psalm 19, "May the words of my mouth and the meditations of my heart be acceptable in thy sight, O Lord, my strength and my redeemer."


38 posted on 01/24/2007 11:26:47 AM PST by ichabod1 ("Liberals read Karl Marx. Conservatives UNDERSTAND Karl Marx." Ronald Reagan)
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To: gubamyster

I don't see any problem with that unless glass is forbidden. Now, the apostate, homosekshul parish I used to attend uses white whine. Is THAT acceptable?


39 posted on 01/24/2007 11:28:49 AM PST by ichabod1 ("Liberals read Karl Marx. Conservatives UNDERSTAND Karl Marx." Ronald Reagan)
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To: NYer; All
Interesting quiz, I scored about 70% on it.

50. False - dancing of any kind during liturgical services (in Western Churches) is strictly prohibited. (Notitiae II 202-205)

This particular question is of interest to me. Last Saturday I attended a Santo Nino Mass, celebrated because of the large Phillipino contingent in our Parish. During the Mass, during the procession of gifts to the altar, those bringing the gifts danced a traditional Phillipino dance. Was this improper, I wonder, since the actual church building was in the western hemisphere (Baltimore MD), or, is it ok that one time, since Santo Nino is a distinctly eastern (Phillipino) tradition? Anyone know?

40 posted on 01/24/2007 11:45:29 AM PST by FourtySeven (47)
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To: Talking_Mouse

I have a similar question about that too. During our Saturday Vigil Mass, it is common to have baptisms in the Mass itself (instead of a separate practice).

Is this bad?

If it's not, I guess it's still bad that we substitute the Creed for the Baptismal promises, since the answer to that question above (about omitting the Creed) seems pretty absolute.

Anyone know?


41 posted on 01/24/2007 11:49:29 AM PST by FourtySeven (47)
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To: ichabod1

"###The crossing of the forehead, lips, and heart..."###

We are to absorb the Gospel with our mind, preach it with our lips and have it in our hearts.


42 posted on 01/24/2007 11:50:10 AM PST by franky (Pray for the souls of the faithful departed.)
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To: NYer

"During the recitation of the Creed, all are required to bow or kneel during the lines "by the power of the Holy Spirit..."

The bow is on an 'ordinary' Sunday Mass and the kneeling is Christmas, and various Masses during lent, which no one does except when told by the priest, I believe.


43 posted on 01/24/2007 11:55:04 AM PST by franky (Pray for the souls of the faithful departed.)
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To: franky; ichabod1

we are not being monkeys, there is a reason we do it. Please read this, especially the second paragraph. --

While the assembly prepares, the deacon asks the celebrant for a blessing before he proclaims the Gospel. Absent a deacon, the priest will ready himself by inaudibly praying: "Almighty God, cleanse my heart and my lips that I may worthily proclaim your Gospel." Your parish may have a Book of the Gospels. This book, usually decorated more ornately than the Lectionary, may be carried in procession to the ambo and may also be incensed in reverence.

The deacon or priest then announces the reading. We answer in gratitude and praise for the Good News, "Glory to you, O Lord!" We make three small signs of the cross on the forehead, mouth and heart which embody the prayer: "May the word of God be on my mind, in my words and in my heart" as we aspire to make ourselves one with the word of God. (The new Roman Missal has revived this gesture once again for all to do.)

The deacon or celebrant then proclaims the Gospel and ends with an acclamation, "The Gospel of the Lord." The assembly responds, "Praise to you, Lord Jesus Christ!" The priest or deacon then kisses the book in a sign of reverence and prays another inaudible prayer: "Through the words of the Gospel may our sins be washed away."

http://www.archden.org/dcr/archive/20021106/2002110601ab.htm


44 posted on 01/24/2007 11:57:10 AM PST by Nihil Obstat (God bless)
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To: NYer

CONGREGATIO CULTO DIVINO ET DISCIPLINA SACRAMENTORUM
Prot. n. 468/05/L

Rome, 12 October 2006

Your Excellency,
I refer to your letters of 9 March 2005 and 7 March 2006, in which, in the name of the Conference of Bishops of which you are President, you requested a renewal of the indult for extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion to purify the sacred vessels after Mass, where there are not enough priests or deacons to purify a large number of chalices that might be used at Mass.

I have put the whole matter before the Holy Father in an audience which he granted me on 9 June 2006, and received instructions to reply as follows:

1. There is no doubt that "the sign of Communion is more complete when given under both kinds, since in that form the sign of the Eucharistic meal appears more clearly" (General Instruction of the Roman Missal, no. 281; Catechism of the Catholic Church, no. 390).

2. Sometimes, however, the high number of communicants may render it inadvisable for everyone to drink from the chalice (cf. Redemptionis Sacramentum, no. 102). intinction with reception on the tongue always and everywhere remains a legitimate option, by virtue of the general liturgical law
of the Roman Rite.

3. Catechesis of the people is important regarding the teaching of the Council of Trent that Christ is
fully present under each of the species. Communion under the species of the bread alone, as a consequence, makes it possible to receive all the fruit of Eucharistic grace (cf. Denzinger-Schônmetzer, no. 1729; General Instruction of the Roman Missal, nos. 11, 282).

"For pastoral reasons", therefore, "this manner of receiving Communion has been legitimately established as the
most common form in the Latin rite" (Catechism of the Catholic Church, no. 1390).

4. Paragraph 279 of the General Instruction of the Roman Missal directs that the sacred vessels are to be purified by the priest, the deacon or an instituted acolyte. The status of this text as legislation has recently been clarified by the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts. It does not seem feasible, therefore, for the Congregation to grant the requested indult from this directive in the
general law of the Latin Church.

5. This letter is therefore a request to the members of the Bishops' Conference of the United Status of America to prepare the necessary explanations and catechetical materials for your clergy and people so that henceforth the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, no. 279, as found in the editio typicatia of the Roman Missal, will be observed throughout its territories.

With the expression of my esteem and fraternal greetings, I remain,

Your Excellency,
Devotedly yours in Christ,
+Francis Cardinal Arinze
Monsignor Mario Marini Prefect Under-Secretary


45 posted on 01/24/2007 12:11:28 PM PST by franky (Pray for the souls of the faithful departed.)
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To: ichabod1
I believe it is ok, nee encouraged for individuals to mouth the words of the mass silently along with the Priest. At least I have read this in the rubrics of the latin mass booklet.

"Mouthing the words," I suppose, if one can not read to himself without his lips moving, is OK. It indicates one is paying attention, at least.

But encouraging the entire congregation to join in with the priest in saying aloud parts of the Mass specifically proper to the priest is a different animal altogether. If we're all saying the words, why do we need a priest? If there is no difference between me saying something and a priest saying it, who needs a priest?

That is the faux "egalitarian" line of thinking behind such "innovations." It is set on destroying the distinction between priest and layman.

But you bring me to something that is fast becoming a pet peeve of mine. The crossing of the forehead, lips, and heart before the Priest or Deacon reads the Gospel. I used to think it was a fine thing to do, but I read a thread a while back that said it was nothing but aping the reader like a monkey. That made sense to me because why would I cross MY lips when somebody else is about to read. So, I cross myself while everybody else does the whole pantomime. I just wonder if it is required to do that.

This may indeed be a case where "aping" happened, but I see nothing wrong with asking for Christ to be "on your lips" even if you are not presently speaking. It is one thing for a spontaneous act of pious imitation to become part of the liturgy through years of practice.

This is why liturgy is so important. You have to nip abberent practices in the bud, or they will grow to become a norm.

46 posted on 01/24/2007 12:19:14 PM PST by SoothingDave (Are you on the list?)
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To: ichabod1
I don't see any problem with that unless glass is forbidden.

Chalices are not supposed to be made of breakable material.

47 posted on 01/24/2007 12:20:21 PM PST by SoothingDave (Are you on the list?)
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To: Talking_Mouse
Several Times during Saturday vigil Mass instead of the Creed we have had people renewing their wedding vows. Each time the priest (same one -- he says he loves weddings) explains that this is licit because it is a sacrament. I am confused, is he mistaken or am I not reading the question correctly?

Is there a renewal of baptismal promises, which the congregation is asked to participate?

48 posted on 01/24/2007 12:21:54 PM PST by SoothingDave (Are you on the list?)
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To: Nihil Obstat

Thank you and God bless you.

My parish has a 'Book of the Gospels' which is carried down the aisle and laid on the middle of the altar. It is then carried to the ambo by the priest with two altar servers carrying candles.

I watch EWTN's Mass every night and not knowing Latin, would you know the Latin for "The Gospel of the Lord." To me it sounds like Verboom Domini?


49 posted on 01/24/2007 12:24:02 PM PST by franky (Pray for the souls of the faithful departed.)
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To: SoothingDave
Is there a renewal of baptismal promises, which the congregation is asked to participate?

Not during the wedding vow renewal. The congregation is not asked to participate as anything but witnesses.
50 posted on 01/24/2007 12:24:39 PM PST by Talking_Mouse (wahhabi delenda est)
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