Posted on 01/27/2007 6:12:35 AM PST by NYer
I can't speak to why others do anything.
See, that's what I was looking for.
You sound like my kind of doctor. And I would be the kind of Catholic patient who would not scandalize you.
I deliberately left that out - because justification is not the site of major controversy. Let's ditch "sola fide," since as a label it's not particularly useful.
When Trent anathematized "faith alone,"in Canon 11 of Sixth Session of the Council of Trent, it anathametized a particular belief - that you could be saved solely by grace, without any works ever occurring. While that may be taught in some Protestant churches, it is not and never has been the Reformed faith. The Reformed Church has always taught that works are the inevitable result of true justification. See, for example, WCF Chp. 11, Section 2.
The anathametizations simply don't apply to the Reformed faith because the anathematized doctrines in the Council of Trent are either mischaracterizations or abuses of the Reformed faith.
"The battle is not amongst those who have good-faith differences about the authority of the Church, the Communion of the Saints, the Sacraments, and so forth. No, the real battle today is against secular post-modernists who want to break people of their faith, against a world that wants to distract us with its baubles, and against an errant heart that wants to buy into the lies of the world so I can do what I know I should hate.
My enemies are not other Christians. It's the world, the flesh and the devil."
Very well said. You are a credit to your upbringing!
God exists. Is that an uncontestable factual statement?
I disagree. Christianity hinges on faith in Christ.
Excellent point! The first two centuries of the Church are filled with martyrs who died for their belief that Jesus Christ was the Messiah. Their belief came from oral transmission by the Apostles. There were no Bibles.
I just caught the fact that I interloped on this caucus thread, so I hope that didn't ruffle any feathers.
Absolutely not! Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant ... we are all seeking the Truth! We all recognize that Truth to be Christ. As I previously said, your comments are most welcome.
Never post before the second cup of coffee. I think that is in the Didache somewhere.
Lol ... according to my clock, it's now time to imbibe something more relaxing. And I already know that is to be found in Scripture :-)
For instance, if it were an "Atheist Caucus" and the article or a reply said that Buddhists believe God exists - and a Buddhist came on thread and said, hold on now that's not exactly right - then the thread would be open to his rebuttal.
I've been away from the thread for several hours and only just found your post. You quote the above:
John Henry Newman was one of the more famous converts to Catholicism. After studying the Early Fathers he wrote: "The Christianity of history is not Protestantism. If ever there were a safe truth it is this, and Protestantism has ever felt it so; to be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant" (An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine)
The Essay fills an entire book. He is a well respected theologian from both the Protestant and Catholic 'confessions'. This was not a random thought but one that developed over many years of study. His conversion to the Catholic Church resulted in the loss of great prestige and many friends. One does not take such risks lightly.
This thread will be followed by a series of others, all of which quote the Early Church Fathers, with no commentary. I believe these threads should stand, as 'Catholic Caucus' threads.
tiki: "God exists. Is that an uncontestable factual statement?"
RM: "For instance, if it were an "Atheist Caucus" and the article or a reply said that Buddhists believe God exists - and a Buddhist came on thread and said, hold on now that's not exactly right - then the thread would be open to his rebuttal."
So then an Orthodox Christian poster, mindful of the Cappadocian Fathers, could butt in with "I believe in God, God does not "exist"." Correct? :)
If, under the guise of a "Proddie Caucus," a series penned by a prominent Protestant convert from Catholicism were posted would you and the rest of our RC FRiends protest? What if that series was at times less than complementary towards Catholic Doctrine?
In fact, I think it would be a great idea if each of the confessions were to begin a series to reveal their beliefs to the Lurkers: "Catholic beliefs on x [Catholic Caucus]".
As long as no other confession is mentioned, e.g. as a comparison, there is no reason the thread should opened for challenges or ridicule.
If an article chosen for a closed caucus thread has no reference to any other confession whatsoever, there is no reason the thread should be opened. Accidental references posted as replies can be removed.
Can we have an Orthodox/Latin caucus to discuss issues of particular interest and concern to us keeping in mind that the post itself wouldn't mention other current persuasions and thus the comments would of necessity likewise avoid such mention (well, if there are any Nestorians or Arians or such like still around we might offend them, but of course they could then come in)?
Yes, you can have a joint caucus; as long as no other confessions are mentioned, there should be no problem keeping the thread closed.
How does one talk about one's conversion then from Protestantism to the Catholic Faith without any reference to doctrine? How does one say "After much study, I was convinced the X-doctrine is in error and so I came to believe as the Church teaches." Would that then be seen as a polemic attack?
Indeed, once you mention another confession by name - and, especially once you testify as to what that confession teaches - then you are subject to a member of the confession objecting that your statement is false, incomplete, a strawman or whatever. It is better just to say what you believe now and why on a caucus thread.
I get your point ;-)
"I get your point ;-)"
I do love that line! Always guaranteed to get a response. Its nearly as provocative, yet true in a certain theological sense as +Athanasius' line "God became man so that men might become gods".
Both lines make much more sense in Greek than in English! :)
Seriously, Isn't there such a thing as a BAD Catholic or an excommunicated Catholic (or even a treacherous Catholic)?
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