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The Early Church Fathers on Purgatory - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
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Posted on 01/30/2007 4:41:08 PM PST by NYer

The Early Church Fathers believed in purgatory and prayers for the dead.

Clement of Alexandria

The believer through discipline divests himself of his passions and passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, passes to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance for the faults he may have committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more, not yet attaining what he sees others have acquired. The greatest torments are assigned to the believer, for God's righteousness is good, and His goodness righteous, and though these punishments cease in the course of the expiation and purification of each one, "yet" etc. (Patres Groeci. IX, col. 332 [A.D. 150-215]).


If a man departs this life with lighter faults, he is condemned to fire which burns away the lighter materials, and prepares the soul for the kingdom of God, where nothing defiled may enter. For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (I Cor., 3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones? Neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works. (Patres Groeci. XIII, col. 445, 448 [A.D. 185-232]).


The citizen of a prominent city, I erected this while I lived, that I might have a resting place for my body. Abercius is my name, a disciple of the chaste shepherd who feeds his sheep on the mountains and in the fields, who has great eyes surveying everywhere, who taught me the faithful writings of life. Standing by, I, Abercius, ordered this to be inscribed; truly I was in my seventy-second year. May everyone who is in accord with this and who understands it pray for Abercius (Epitaph of Abercius [A.D. 190]).


That allegory of the Lord [Matt. 5:25-26] . . . is extremely clear and simple in its meaning . . . [beware lest as] a transgressor of your agreement, before God the judge . . . and lest this judge deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting sense than this? What a truer interpretation? (The Soul 35 [A.D. 210]).

The faithful widow prays for the soul of her husband, and begs for him in the interim repose, and participation in the first resurrection, and offers prayers on the anniversary of his death (Monogamy 10 [A.D. 213]).


It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory; it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the Day of Judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord (Letters 51[55]:20 [A.D. 253]).

Cyril of Jerusalem

Then we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition, next, we make mention also of the holy fathers and bishops who have already fallen asleep, and, to put it simply, of all among us who have already fallen asleep. For we believe that it will be of very great benefit to the souls of those for whom the petition is carried up, while this holy and most solemn sacrifice is laid out (Catechetical Lectures 23:5:9 [A.D. 350]).

John Chrysostom

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice [Job l:5), why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them (Homilies on First Corinthians 41:5 [A.D. 392]).

Not in vain was it decreed by the apostles that in the awesome mysteries remembrance should be made of the departed. They knew that here there was much gain for them, much benefit. When the entire people stands with hands uplifted, a priestly assembly, and that awesome sacrificial victim is laid out, how, when we are calling upon God, should we not succeed in their defense? But this is done for those who have departed in the faith, while even the catechumens are not reckoned as worthy of this consolation, but are deprived of every means of assistance except one. And what is that? We may give alms to the poor on their behalf (Homilies on Philippians 3:9-10 [A.D. 402]).

Ambrose of Milan

Give perfect rest to thy servant Theodosius, that rest which thou hast prepared for thy saints… I have loved him, and therefore will I follow him into the land of the living; nor will I leave him until by tears and prayers I shall lead him wither his merits summon him, unto the holy mountain of the Lord (Funeral Sermon of Theodosius 36-37 [A.D. 395]).


There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for other dead who are remembered. It is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended (Sermons 159:1 [A.D. 411]).

Temporal punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by some after death, by some both here and hereafter, but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But not all who suffer temporal punishments after death will come to eternal punishments, which are to follow after that judgment (The City of God 21:13 [A.D. 419]).

That there should be some fire even after this life is not incredible, and it can be inquired into and either be discovered or left hidden whether some of the faithful may be saved, some more slowly and some more quickly in the greater or lesser degree in which they loved the good things that perish, through a certain purgatorial fire (Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Charity l8:69 [A.D. 421]).

TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Orthodox Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholiccaucus; prayersfordead; purgatory
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To: ConservativeMind
"1st Maccabees" and "2nd Maccabees" were written over 100 years before Christ. They do not describe any Christian practice

The events in Genesis took place 4000 years before Christ, yet they still play a part in Christian theology.
41 posted on 01/30/2007 6:42:23 PM PST by Conservative til I die
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To: Kolokotronis
I am intrigued by this difference between expiation and purification, I could see where the expiation could be for the purification. eg: I may not be whole (purified) until I have undone (expiated) the damage that my sin has caused. I very much am enjoying the conversation in this these Catholic/Orthodox Caucus threads as there is more sanity than shouting. Thank You!
42 posted on 01/30/2007 7:50:49 PM PST by Klondike
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To: Salvation; Religion Moderator
It was not until the Protestant Reformation in the sixteenth century that anyone denied the doctrine of the final purification. Some imagine that the Catholic Church has an elaborate doctrine of purgatory worked out, but there are only three essential components of the doctrine. (1) A purification after death exists. (2) It involves some kind of pain. (3) The purification can be assisted by the prayers and offerings by the living to God.

You want to keep this a "Catholic/Orthodox caucus thread", or do you want us Protestants to join in? It sure sounds like the invitation has been made to make it an open thread.

43 posted on 01/30/2007 8:17:05 PM PST by Alex Murphy
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To: Alex Murphy; Salvation
Is that statement about the Protestant Reformation inaccurate, incomplete or a strawman? If no, then there is no problem.

If yes, since it is a reply post, there are two choices: (1) the reply post can be removed or (2) the thread can be opened. Your call, Salvation.

44 posted on 01/30/2007 8:30:02 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: Alex Murphy; Salvation; Religion Moderator

I would also speak my peace, if possible.

45 posted on 01/30/2007 8:31:46 PM PST by Enosh
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To: Enosh; Alex Murphy

At the moment you are both guests in the other guy's church. Unless the closed doors are being used as cover to take shots at your church the thread will remain closed and the guests should keep their peace.

46 posted on 01/30/2007 8:37:24 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: Vicomte13
And I hope that some of you found this discussion interesting and illuminating.

I certainly appreciate your input and will post some reflections on it later. Thank you!

47 posted on 01/31/2007 12:36:31 AM PST by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: Vicomte13
What is important to realize is that Jewish Gehenna is both Hell AND Purgatory. Purgatory is IN Hell. That's what Jews think. And thought. And their word for this place was Gehenna. Gehenna, or Gehinnom in Hebrew (Gehenna is actually Yiddish) is also a nasty valley near Jerusalem where bad rites were historically performed, so the name for the Jewish concept of Hell was probably pulled from that valley name, or vice versa.

You are right. This was the valley of Hinnom where in the darkest days of Jerusalem's history their children were sacrificed to pagan gods, and where the people of Jerusalem dumped their trash. Smoke from the valley of Hinnom was said the have ascended into heaven day and night. The burning never ceased.

Furthermore, things that were cast into this valley of Gehenna never returned from it. It was the end of the road, not a transitional point. Thus Jews who might have thought that Gehenna was merely purgatory or a transitional station on their way to heaven had to be in complete denial of the reality of what the valley of Hinnom represented. Once something entered the trash dump of the valley of Hinnom, it was never seen or heard from again. If it was purgatory, it was a perpetual purgatory from which there was no exit.

48 posted on 01/31/2007 3:58:54 AM PST by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: NYer; amihow; Mrs. Don-o; Knitting A Conundrum; do the dhue; Hydroshock; the lastbestlady; ...

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic Ping List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to all note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of interest.

49 posted on 01/31/2007 4:26:31 AM PST by narses (St Thomas says "lex injusta non obligat.")
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To: Klondike
In great haste as I am off to the office. I think the distinction lies in the Orthodox view of our created purpose which is to be in the image and likeness of God. The ability to attain the likeness of God through cooperation with God's grace which falls equally on the good and the evil was lost in The Fall and restored by the Incarnation. The word for sin in Greek, armatia means "to miss the mark", the mark being Christ. By not missing the mark and proceeding through the process of theosis, we by grace become more and more like Christ and die to the self so that in a state of perfect theosis, the self as fallen man ceases to exist and our entire being becomes focused on God. That's the purified state. All of this is wrought by God's love. The thread of theology I am referring to says that after death if we have a similitude to Christ, God's love, through His mercy, finishes the business of purification. If there is no similitude to Christ, that same love torments and "destroys". But there is nothing we are doing in this post physical death state. God, as is demonstrated by the way grace and love fall on all of us, doesn't need our expiation as some sort of atonement for missing the mark. He simply finishes what He began at our creation, but now there is nothing we can do to respond to that process. I suppose at base the distinction is that expiation is viewed as something we do in the nature of atonement, of pay back while purification is 100% a God operation which acts on us.
50 posted on 01/31/2007 4:29:49 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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51 posted on 01/31/2007 4:56:14 AM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: Vicomte13
Gehenna was the perpetual burning dump on the outside of the city of Jerusalem. Rather stinky, nasty, place.

The Jewish concept of hell around the first century AD was one of both hell and purgatory in some traditions (See Josephus), but it was not by far a universal thing. Some help to concepts of heaven and hell pretty close to what is commonly believed today, and some rabbi's had some rather odd ideas (like Philo for instance).

There was no consensus as to the state of the soul in the after life in first century Jewish theology.
52 posted on 01/31/2007 6:03:55 AM PST by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: Enosh

It's based on Revelations (and strictly speaking it's not doctrine that they go strait to the 'dead', the method whereby these prayers reach their destination isn't known).

In revelations the prayers for the saints intercede at the final judgement; that's why apostolic churches ask them to pray for us...

53 posted on 01/31/2007 7:48:16 AM PST by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: Enosh

It's based on Revelations (and strictly speaking it's not doctrine that they go strait to the 'dead', the method whereby these prayers reach their destination isn't known).

In revelations the prayers for the saints intercede at the final judgement; that's why apostolic churches ask them to pray for us...

54 posted on 01/31/2007 7:48:18 AM PST by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: Kolokotronis
Thank you for the thoughtful response. I feel out of my depth ( I am no theologian ) here but I cannot help the feeling that we (East and West) are really describing the same truth. Like the proverbial blind men describing the elephant, both entirely accurate, different perspectives. Is it possible that God can apply as our Sacred Physician different remedies to each soul in order to perfect each?
I agree that once the body dies there is nothing one can do to make satisfaction for his past imperfections. The poor soul is at this point entirely at God's mercy. It is up to those (church triumphant and church militant) to plead with God to be merciful.
55 posted on 01/31/2007 9:49:04 AM PST by Klondike
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To: Kolokotronis
Thank you for the thoughtful response. I feel out of my depth ( I am no theologian ) here but I cannot help the feeling that we (East and West) are really describing the same truth. Like the proverbial blind men describing the elephant, both entirely accurate, different perspectives. Is it possible that God can apply as our Sacred Physician different remedies to each soul in order to perfect each?
I agree that once the body dies there is nothing one can do to make satisfaction for his past imperfections. The poor soul is at this point entirely at God's mercy. It is up to those (church triumphant and church militant) to plead with God to be merciful.
56 posted on 01/31/2007 9:50:37 AM PST by Klondike
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To: redgolum

There was no consensus on the state of the soul, for example, the Sadduccees didn't believe in an afterlife at all - and they were the priestly class!

However, the words had meaning even if one didn't believe them. That there WAS "Gehenna" wasn't universally accepted, but what "Gehenna" meant, was understood.

Example: "The Rapture".
It has a meaning. Catholics don't believe in it. Neither do the Orthodox. Neither do a lot of Protestants. But there is no Christian adult who doesn't know what "The Rapture" means when a Christian preacher uses it.

Now, "Rapture" is also a song by Blondie. And "rapture" in general means overwhelming ecstasy. But nobody hearing a televangelist talking about The Rapture thinks he's talking about pop music or a generic state of ecstasy. There isn't any confusion at all. What he MEANS is the Christian Rapture, believed by some and not by others, but generally understood in its meaning by EVERYBODY.

The doctrine of Gehenna was not universally held in the first century Judaism. And it is not universally believed by Jews today. But every Jew knew what the word meant, then and now. They either believed in the doctrine of Gehenna or didn't, like The Rapture, but they were not confused by the term. Jesus wasn't using a strange term he needed to EXPLAIN. Like "korban", Gehenna had a meaning.

Yes, Gehenna was also the name of a valley outside of Jerusalem. A nasty valley with an evil reputation, where human sacrifice has apparently been peformed and which was used as a burning waste dump. It made a great visual. Hell is also a town in Michigan, down in the industrial and tornado and blizzard belt. Paradise is a town in Michigan up in the splendor of the northwoods, near beautiful waterfalls, on the shores of Lake Superior. Paradise and Hell were named for the thoughts they inspired.

Now, whether Gehenna the horrible valley was named after Gehenna the horrid idea, or the idea of the burning horrible place of purgation and punishment was named Gehenna after the identifiably horrible valley of burning refuse and human sacrifice is unknown. What is clear is that the idea of Gehenna as Jewish Purgatory/Hell, although by no means universally accepted by the Jews of the 1st Century (or the 21st Century either) was UNDERSTOOD back then as it is now. Jews in the first century who believed in Gehenna and purgation didn't think that the dead went to the literal valley, any more than Christians in Michigan think that the good, when they die, go to the Upper Peninsula. Jews who DIDN'T believe in Gehenna in the first century, as a place of purgation of the soul and eternal hell for the wicked, were not ignorant of the word, and they didn't think the people who did believe in Gehenna thought that Hell was a valley outside of Jerusalem.

We cannot allow ourselves to be that obtuse.
I am a Catholic, not an evangelical Baptist, but when the Reverend Michaels starts talking about the Christian Rapture, I know he's not talking about Blondie. I know PRECISELY what he is talking about, even though I don't believe a lick of it.
Similarly, when Jesus spoke of punishment and torment in Gehenna, for sins, everybody didn't believe that bad souls go to Gehenna, but everyone knew what he MEANT.
And he didn't believe the eponymous valley was Hell.
That's obvious.

Why, then, is the point made?

Let's be honest here.
Most Christians don't know anything about Judaism past or present. Finding out that Gehenna is Jewish Hell/Purgatory is a SURPRISE to virtually every Christian who discovers it, including well-educated Christian clergy. Christian bibles talk about the eponymous valley outside of Jerusalem, but they DON'T talk about Gehenna having the religious meaning of Hell/Purgatory to Jews. They don't. Page to the footnote in your favorite Bible. It might tell you about the valley. It will be SILENT about the Jewish spiritual understanding of the word. The reason for that silence is mainly ignorance. Christians aren't Jews, and simply didn't know that.

But the knowledge, once imparted, certainly cleans a lot of things out. Suddenly, the plain meaning of what Jesus said becomes clearer. What his audience understood becomes clear. That's USUALLY a good thing, Biblically. However, in this case, that piece of knowledge has a problem connected to it: Jesus' use of the Jewish term "Gehenna" also makes Jesus' COSMOLOGY a lot clearer.
And that is ALARMING.
Because Catholics and Protestants, ignorant of the Jewish meaning, have written reams, volumes, of doctrine trying to work out a heaven/hell/purgatory cosmology. Catholics have described a Purgatory, but incorrectly said it's a product of reason, not Scripture. Actually, it IS Scriptural: in Jesus' own words. Gehenna doesn't just mean the valley of Gehinnom any more than Hell is town in central Michigan. It had a universally understood, if not accepted, cosmological meaning too, back in Jesus' day and in ours. Medieval Christians, not being Jews, and having driven all the Jews away, had no inkling of that. But Purgatory is NECESSARY, given Scripture, so they postulated Purgatory. Correctly. But they didn't know that it was also Scripture, and actually in Jesus' mouth with that one word: Gehenna.
One would think that one would hear a great rush of exultant Catholic relief and chest thumping to discover the Jewish meaning of this word. But pride is a terrible thing, and instead there is considerable Catholic ANGER that all of the piles of doctrine about Purgatory should simply be folded into one word, Gehenna, and Purgatory be found to be Scriptural after all, in that one little word. The pride in vast learning and argumentation makes some want to fight for that pile of learning overly hard, and not just accept the obvious in Jesus' use of the word.

And on the Protestant side? Protestants, as ignorant of Judaism as Catholics, have been bashing Catholicism over the head about the unscripturality of Purgatory for years. To have Jesus' words made clearer, illuminated by knowledge of Judaism, usually would make people who love Scripture exult, just as archaeological finds which tend to support the Bible do. But here, the archaeological find, the theological meaning, to Jews, of Gehenna (whether they believed in the cosmology or not), loses in one blow a 5 century argument with Catholicism. "Purgatory", of a Jewish sort, is Biblical.

And thus the reactions on this thread and the other.
A lot of silence.
And then a Catholic snarling at me with piles of medieval documents which are supposed to override JEWS' understanding of Jewish words! Pride.
And on the Protestant side?
Mostly silence too. But an effort to assert, essentially, that Hell is a place in Michigan, because there is a place in Michigan called Hell.

Whether the Jewish concept of Gehinnom was named after the nasty valley, or the nasty valley was named Gehinnom for its likeness to the Jewish cosmoligical concept we will never know. And it doesn't make any difference. Jesus was talking about Gehinnom spiritually, about a place where one is thrown wholly for committing sins. He wasn't talking about a garbage dump. Rapture doesn't mean the car-eating Martian sung about by Deborah Harry.

It's obvious.
The reason there is resistance is because it forces a change of cosmological view, based on one little word of Scripture repeated a few times from the mouth of Jesus.

It means both sides of a half-millennial debate being wrong: it IS Scriptural (contrary to Catholic assertion in documents that it isn't), and it IS purgatorial, which is difficult for Protestant cosmology.

You are free, of course, to post again and again that because everybody doesn't believe in The Rapture, that it means a song by Blondie, and that Hell is a place in Michigan. But even you don't really believe it.

Gehenna is Jewish Purgatory and Hell - same place, two functions, depending on the disposition of the soul who enters there. There's an eponymous valley near Jerusalem named for it, or it got its name from the valley. Either way, First Century Jews all knew what Gehenna meant, whether they believed it or not. Which is why Jesus could use the word without defining it or correcting anyone.

No first century Jews believed that the souls of the dead went to a valley near Jerusalem. And even the worst First Century Jews, criminals, were not thrown into the garbage heap but were buried. When Jesus said "whole body thrown into Gehenna" no Jew thought "They're talking about throwing my body into the garbage", because Jews were buried, not thrown in the garbage. Even the crucified criminal Jesus was put in a tomb.

Gehenna means Hell/Purgatory. That's what it means, and meant, to Jews. Even Sadduccees, who didn't beleive in the place, knew what it meant. The Rapture from the mouth of a Christian minister isn't a rap song by Blondie. Gehenna from the mouth of a Jewish rabbi talking about sin and outcomes was not a valley outside of Jerusalem.
It's obvious.

57 posted on 01/31/2007 10:13:43 AM PST by Vicomte13 (Et alors?)
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To: Kolokotronis; trisham; WriteOn; Vicomte13; Knitting A Conundrum; kawaii
God's love refines and purifies those who have a similitude to Christ and torments those who have none.

I think you will appreciate St. Faustina's diary entry on this topic. (St. Faustina's words are in black and Jesus' words are in red.)

Souls in Purgatory

The next night] I saw my Guardian Angel, who ordered me to follow him. In a moment I was in a misty place full of fire in which there was a great crowd of suffering souls. They were praying fervently, but to no avail, for themselves; only we can come to their aid. The flames which were burning them did not touch me at all. My Guardian Angel did not leave me for an instant. I asked these souls what their greatest suffering was. They answered me in one voice that their greatest torment was longing for God. I saw Our Lady visiting the souls in Purgatory. The souls call her "The Star of the Sea." She brings them refreshment. I wanted to talk with them some more, but my Guardian Angel beckoned me to leave. We went out of that prison of suffering. [I heard an interior voice] which said, My mercy does not want this, but justice demands it. Since that time I am in closer communion with the suffering souls. (20)
One night, a sister who had died two months previously came to me. She was a sister of the first choir. I saw her in a terrible condition, all in flames with her face painfully distorted. This lasted only a short time, and then she disappeared. A shudder went through my soul because I did not know whether she was suffering in purgatory or in hell. Nevertheless I redoubled my prayers for her. The next night she came again, but I saw her in an even more horrible state, in the midst of flames which were even more intense, and despair was written all over the face. I was astonished to see her in a worse condition after the prayers I had offered for her, and I asked, "Haven't my prayers helped you?" She answered that my prayers had not helped her and that nothing would help her. I said to her," And the prayers which the whole community has offered for you...?" She said no, that these prayers had helped some other souls.... Despite this, I kept on praying.... After some time she came back.. but already her appearance had changed. There were no longer any flames ..and her face was radiant, her eyes beaming with joy. She told me that I had a true love for my neighbour and that many other souls had profited from my prayers. She urged me not to cease praying for the souls in purgatory, and she added that she herself would not remain there much longer. How astounding are the decrees of God! (58)
In spite of the noise [the gardeners] were making, I heard these words in my soul: "Pray for me!" But as I could not understand these words very well, I moved a few steps away from the wards, trying to think who it could be who was asking me to pray. Then I heard the words: "I am Sister..." This sister was in Warsaw while I was, at the time, in Vilnius. "Pray for me until I tell you to stop. I am dying." Immediately, I began to pray fervently for her [addressing myself] to the expiring Heart of Jesus. She gave me no respite , and I kept praying from three until five. At five I heard the words, "Thank you!" and I understood that she had died. .....In the afternoon [the following day] a postcard came saying that Sister... had died at such and such a time. I understood that it was at the same hour when she had said to me, "Pray for me." (315)
This evening, one of the deceased sisters came and asked me for one day of fasting and to offer all my [spiritual] exercises on that day for her. I answered that I would. From early morning on the following day, I offered everything for her intention. During Holy Mass, I had a brief experience of her torment. I experienced such intense hunger for God that I seemed to be dying of the desire to become united with Him. This lasted only a short time, but I understood what the longing of the souls in purgatory was like. (1185-6)

58 posted on 01/31/2007 11:05:06 AM PST by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: Klondike

Given the Early Fathers generally go with it being impossible and disrespectful for mortals to try to describe heavenly things it may well be our attempts are approximating something alltogether too hard to understand...

59 posted on 01/31/2007 11:30:37 AM PST by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: NYer

how is hell different than the situation described there?

60 posted on 01/31/2007 11:31:21 AM PST by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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