Posted on 01/30/2007 4:41:08 PM PST by NYer
The Early Church Fathers believed in purgatory and prayers for the dead.
Clement of Alexandria
The believer through discipline divests himself of his passions and passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, passes to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance for the faults he may have committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more, not yet attaining what he sees others have acquired. The greatest torments are assigned to the believer, for God's righteousness is good, and His goodness righteous, and though these punishments cease in the course of the expiation and purification of each one, "yet" etc. (Patres Groeci. IX, col. 332 [A.D. 150-215]).
Origen
If a man departs this life with lighter faults, he is condemned to fire which burns away the lighter materials, and prepares the soul for the kingdom of God, where nothing defiled may enter. For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (I Cor., 3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones? Neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works. (Patres Groeci. XIII, col. 445, 448 [A.D. 185-232]).
Abercius
The citizen of a prominent city, I erected this while I lived, that I might have a resting place for my body. Abercius is my name, a disciple of the chaste shepherd who feeds his sheep on the mountains and in the fields, who has great eyes surveying everywhere, who taught me the faithful writings of life. Standing by, I, Abercius, ordered this to be inscribed; truly I was in my seventy-second year. May everyone who is in accord with this and who understands it pray for Abercius (Epitaph of Abercius [A.D. 190]).
Tertullian
That allegory of the Lord [Matt. 5:25-26] . . . is extremely clear and simple in its meaning . . . [beware lest as] a transgressor of your agreement, before God the judge . . . and lest this judge deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting sense than this? What a truer interpretation? (The Soul 35 [A.D. 210]).
The faithful widow prays for the soul of her husband, and begs for him in the interim repose, and participation in the first resurrection, and offers prayers on the anniversary of his death (Monogamy 10 [A.D. 213]).
Cyprian
It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory; it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the Day of Judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord (Letters 51[55]:20 [A.D. 253]).
Cyril of Jerusalem
Then we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition, next, we make mention also of the holy fathers and bishops who have already fallen asleep, and, to put it simply, of all among us who have already fallen asleep. For we believe that it will be of very great benefit to the souls of those for whom the petition is carried up, while this holy and most solemn sacrifice is laid out (Catechetical Lectures 23:5:9 [A.D. 350]).
John Chrysostom
Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice [Job l:5), why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them (Homilies on First Corinthians 41:5 [A.D. 392]).
Not in vain was it decreed by the apostles that in the awesome mysteries remembrance should be made of the departed. They knew that here there was much gain for them, much benefit. When the entire people stands with hands uplifted, a priestly assembly, and that awesome sacrificial victim is laid out, how, when we are calling upon God, should we not succeed in their defense? But this is done for those who have departed in the faith, while even the catechumens are not reckoned as worthy of this consolation, but are deprived of every means of assistance except one. And what is that? We may give alms to the poor on their behalf (Homilies on Philippians 3:9-10 [A.D. 402]).
Ambrose of Milan
Give perfect rest to thy servant Theodosius, that rest which thou hast prepared for thy saints… I have loved him, and therefore will I follow him into the land of the living; nor will I leave him until by tears and prayers I shall lead him wither his merits summon him, unto the holy mountain of the Lord (Funeral Sermon of Theodosius 36-37 [A.D. 395]).
Augustine
There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for other dead who are remembered. It is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended (Sermons 159:1 [A.D. 411]).
Temporal punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by some after death, by some both here and hereafter, but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But not all who suffer temporal punishments after death will come to eternal punishments, which are to follow after that judgment (The City of God 21:13 [A.D. 419]).
That there should be some fire even after this life is not incredible, and it can be inquired into and either be discovered or left hidden whether some of the faithful may be saved, some more slowly and some more quickly in the greater or lesser degree in which they loved the good things that perish, through a certain purgatorial fire (Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Charity l8:69 [A.D. 421]).
I am very frightened when I think about this.
For myself, and especially for some who have gone before.
I am such a wretched snake of a human being, why would my prayers for them have any worth to God at all?
"My mercy does not want this, but justice demands it."
Now you see, NYer, it is this sort of theology which the East cannot accept. In effect this says God is bound by "Necessity". That's heresy from our pov. Actually, I'm a bit surprised that a Latin source would say such a thing.
Kosta, take a look at #58
You don't get out of Hell.
Ever.
And you know it.
And it's even worse.
It's eternal - forever - a concept most mortals can't grasp until it's too late. Deprived of the sight of God for all eternity - forever! Frightening.
if its forever then why in revelation do all the dead come out of hell for the final judgement?
What is the chapter and verse?
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
First of all, you are not a snake! Do not put yourself down when there are so many others more than willing to do it for you.
Secondly, our Lord has promised us His great Mercy. Are you familiar with His messages to St. Faustina? He asked her to be His Secretary of the Divine Mercy.
The message and devotion to Jesus as The Divine Mercy
is based on the writings of Saint Faustina Kowalska, an
uneducated Polish nun who, in obedience to her spiritual
director, wrote a diary of about 600 pages recording the
revelations she received about God’s mercy. Even before
her death in 1938, the devotion to The Divine Mercy had
begun to spread.
The message of mercy is that God loves us — all of us —
no matter how great our sins. He wants us to recognize that
His mercy is greater than our sins, so that we will call upon
Him with trust, receive His mercy, and let it flow through us to
others. Thus, all will come to share His joy. It is a message
we can call to mind simply by remembering ABC.
A — Ask for His Mercy. God wants us to approach
Him in prayer constantly, repenting of our sins and
asking Him to pour His mercy out upon us and upon
the whole world.
B — Be merciful. God wants us to receive His mercy
and let it flow through us to others. He wants us to
extend love and forgiveness to others just as He does
to us.
C — Completely trust in Jesus. God wants us to know
that the graces of His mercy are dependent upon our
trust. The more we trust in Jesus, the more we will
receive.
"Your task is to write down everything that I make known to you about My mercy, for the benefit of those who by reading these things will be comforted in their souls and will have the courage to approach Me." (1693)
In the following extract, St. Faustina's words are in black and Jesus' words are in red.
Mystery of God and His Ways
| Who God is in His Essence, no one will fathom, neither the mind of Angels nor of man...Get to know God by contemplating His attributes. (30) |
| Once when I saw how much my confessor was to suffer because of this work [spreading the devotion to the Divine Mercy] which God was going to carry out through him, fear seized me for the moment, and I said to the Lord, "Jesus, this is Your affair, so why are You acting this way toward him? It seems to me that You are making difficulties for him while at the same time ordering him to act." Write that by day and night My gaze is fixed upon him, and I permit these adversities in order to increase his merit. I do not reward for good results but for the patience and hardship undergone for My sake. (86) |
| One day I saw interiorly how much my confessor would have to suffer: friends will desert you while everyone will rise up against you and your physical strength will diminish. I saw you as a bunch of grapes chosen by the Lord and thrown into the press of suffering. Your soul, Father, will at times be filled with doubts about this work and about me. I saw that God himself seemed to be opposing and I asked the Lord why He was acting this way toward him, as though He were placing obstacles in the way of his doing what He himself had asked him to do. And the Lord said, I am acting thus with him to give testimony that this work is Mine. Tell him not to fear anything; My gaze is on him day and night. There will be so many crowns to form his crown as there will be souls saved by this work. It is not for the success of a work but for the suffering that I give reward. (90) |
| When I asked the Lord to ..cast a glance upon a certain soul who was struggling alone against many difficulties, [the Lord said] And if I allow them to seem to triumph, I do this for the sake of My impenetrable decrees. I experienced great peace in seeing how all things are determined by the Lord. (1610) |
| ..I am not always heard. The Lord acts toward me in a mysterious manner. There are times when He Himself allows terrible sufferings, and then again there are times when He does not let me suffer and removes everything that might afflict my soul. These are His ways , unfathomable and incomprehensible to us. It is for us to submit ourselves completely to His holy will. There are mysteries that the human mind will never fathom here on earth; eternity will reveal them. (1656) |
| My kingdom on earth is My life in the human soul. Write..that I Myself am the spiritual guide of souls - and I guide them indirectly through the priest, and lead each one to sanctity by a road known to Me alone. (1784) |
"First of all, you are not a snake! Do not put yourself down when there are so many others more than willing to do it for you."
You don't know me as well as I do.
But God sees, and God knows.
What is the Orthodox reading of 1 Cor 3:9f?
Definitely. This is why it is not called Expiatory.
"What is the Orthodox reading of 1 Cor 3:9f?"
Do you mean 3:9? If so, it means we work synergisticly with God. We participate obediently in His work.
"This is why it is not called Expiatory."
LOL!!!!!!
I trust its not a place where God gives one a "purgative", like ipecac. :)
8 ...And every man shall receive his own reward, according to his own labour. 9 For we are God's coadjutors: you are God's husbandry; you are God's building. 10 According to the grace of God that is given to me, as a wise architect, I have laid the foundation; and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: 13 Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.(1 Cor 3:8-15)
Yes, I should have included v.8. The mentioning of "reward according to labor", it seems to me, places the judgement at the time of judgement after death, hence the connection to purgatory. Also note the "day of the Lord". The Orthodox read it as santification during the lifetime? All of them?
Thus, tha author expresses a concept that is indeed alien to the Orthodox East.
"I thought "f" means "and following"."
Tried to fool the simple Greek peasant with your city ways, eh?
I'll answer later as I am off to bed. In haste though, Orthodoxy speaks of a particular and a final judgment. This verse you quoted is one of those the Fathers pointed to when they speak of God's love being like fire, purifying those with a similitude of Christ and tormenting and consuming those who do not.
Then you are denying the authenticity of these words by Christ, to a saint? Have either of you you read St. Faustina's diary?
I'm a bit surprised that a Latin source would say such a thing.
This is a quote from her diary.
No, I am only stating that the Eastern Orthodox Church does not teach that God's mercy is subject to justice, but that God's mercy is God's justice.
" Then you are denying the authenticity of these words by Christ, to a saint? Have either of you you read St. Faustina's diary?"
I haven't read her diary, but I do question the authenticity of words ascribed to Christ which imply that God is bound by necessity. The mere fact that she is a saint of the Roman Church doesn't mean she isn't wrong here, NYer.
"I'm a bit surprised that a Latin source would say such a thing.
This is a quote from her diary."
I don't doubt that its a quote from her diary (the Latin source), NYer. I do doubt the words are from Christ.
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