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Will Pope Benedict become a Mormon after he dies?
Mail & Guardian ^ | 5 Feb 07 | Tom Heneghan

Posted on 02/05/2007 4:05:05 AM PST by xzins

Pope Benedict was baptised at birth and will most likely be baptised again one year after his death, not by his Roman Catholic Church but by a Mormon he never met.

The Mormons, a United States-based denomination officially named the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (LDS), encourage members to baptise the dead by proxy in the belief they are helping the deceased attain full access to heaven.

Church members are told to focus on their ancestors, a rite understandable in a relatively new denomination founded in 1830. But so many now perform the rituals for celebrities, heroes and perfect strangers that the practice has spun out of control.

Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Genghis Khan, Mao Zedong, King Herod, Al Capone and Mickey Mouse have all appeared for a short time in the International Genealogical Index (IGI) for proxy baptisms, said Helen Radkey, an IGI researcher.

"It seems that any kind of name at all may be submitted," said Radkey from Salt Lake City, where the LDS is based. The IGI also accepts names for rites that "seal" spouses in eternal marriage or parents and children in eternal families.

This has outraged Jews and baffled Christians who see it as usurping the memory of their departed relatives. The LDS says it cannot stem the tide of dead baptised in its own temples.

"The only way we could prevent it would be to undertake independent genealogical research on every name that came in, an utterly impossible task with the many tens of thousands of names that are submitted each year," LDS spokesperson Kim Farah said in an e-mail responding to questions from Reuters.

So Benedict looks set to join his predecessor John Paul and a centuries-long list of popes Mormons have baptised -- despite the fact that he, back when he was the Vatican's top doctrinal authority, ruled that Mormon baptisms were not even Christian.

"There is no reason theologically why a former Pope or any other church leader shouldn't be offered the same opportunity given to the rest of mankind," Farah said.

Jews, Catholics, Protestants, Muslims The Catholics are not the only non-Mormons on the church's International Genealogical Index (IGI), a list of those baptised or cleared for the rite in which a Mormon undergoes a full immersion baptism at a temple in the name of the dead person.

Jewish Holocaust victims, Protestant reformers Martin Luther and John Calvin and Mohammed ibn Abdel-Wahhab, founder of Saudi Arabia's stern version of Islam, have all popped up on the list.

A purged version of the IGI is online on a website run by the LDS church, but does not show which rites have been performed.

That data is reserved only for Mormons, who can consult it at one of the 3 400 Family History Centres worldwide where they go to enter names for these rites using special software. The rites are then performed at temples off-limits to non-Mormons.

Radkey, who has exposed non-Mormon entries on the IGI for over a decade, alerted United States Jewish groups last December that the famous Jewish Nazi-hinter Simon Wiesenthal had turned up on the IGI as a departed soul cleared for Mormon baptism.

Rabbi Marvin Heir, head of a Jewish human rights group in Los Angeles named after the deceased Austrian, called this "very offensive. Simon Wiesenthal dedicated his whole life to Jews. I don't think he needs help getting into heaven."

The church pledged in 1995 not to list Holocaust victims and other Jews after many names were found on the IGI. It took Wiesenthal's name off its online list but critics like Radkey say internal lists still have large numbers of Jewish names.

Popes and fictional wives Pope John Paul II was baptised not once but four times in April 2006, in line with Mormon practice of waiting a year before starting these rites. He died on April 2 2005.

His name was purged from the online IGI, so a normal search will not find them. But his four now-anonymous files are still in the database and three still show his parents' names.

Pope Pius XII was baptised three times and also "sealed" in eternal marriage to a fictional Mrs Eugenio Pacelli. Saint Ignatius Loyola, founder of the Jesuit order of priests, was also "sealed" to a bogus wife. Catholic clergy do not marry.

Names are purged from the public IGI after being found and publicised. Pope John Paul I and Pope Paul VI were both baptised and were listed on the online IGI in December but removed after Reuters asked about them, Farah confirmed.

But earlier popes, going back at least to the Crusader Pope Urban II (1088-1099), are mostly still there. "They remove any names that could potentially cause criticism," Radkey said.

Father Thomas Weinandy, head of the Secretariat for Doctrine and Pastoral Practices of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, described proxy baptism as inappropriate.

"We don't know whether the person would want this or not," he told Reuters from Washington. "Catholics and other Christians feel they are already properly baptised. But it's harmless.

"As for the popes, I think most Catholics would find that somewhat inappropriate but also rather humourous. They're already in heaven! So it's redundant, even if it did work."

Baffling notion Mormons believe the early Christians strayed from the true faith and only the LDS church returned to the right path. All those who lived before 1830 were thus unable to join the Church and have full access to all the glory of heaven.

To trace and baptise these people, it has built up the largest genealogical library in the world, the Family History Library at its headquarters in in Salt Lake City, Utah. This includes public lists of names collected around the world.

Clearly sensitive to questions about the practice, the LDS defends it as a central tenet of its faith. It argues the proxy baptism does no harm because the dead can reject it in the next life, a notion baffling to most Christians.

Farah said Mormons were "always deeply saddened to hear" that non-Mormons might be offended to find their ancestors' names had been harvested from public lists and baptised into a faith they did not follow during their lives.

Church rules say deceased who were born in the past 95 years should not be submitted for baptism without permission from their living relatives, but the IGI shows this is often ignored.

Farah said the LDS church has tried to discourage abuse of the system. "We continue to look for ways to improve," she said. - Reuters


TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: afterlife; baptism; bravosierra; catholic; mormon
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1 posted on 02/05/2007 4:05:12 AM PST by xzins
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To: All

Comparative religion ping.

Interesting, actually.


2 posted on 02/05/2007 4:05:48 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: xzins

"They see dead people"


3 posted on 02/05/2007 4:07:39 AM PST by wolfcreek (Please Lord, May I be, one who sees what's in front of me.)
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To: wolfcreek
"sealed" in eternal marriage to a fictional Mrs Eugenio Pacelli

How do you get married to a fictional person?

4 posted on 02/05/2007 4:17:01 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: xzins; pbear8; Convert; AnalogReigns; OMalley; bradthebuilder; Mrs. Don-o; Knitting A Conundrum; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic Ping List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to all note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of interest.

5 posted on 02/05/2007 4:31:27 AM PST by narses ("Freedom is about authority." - Rudolph Giuliani)
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To: xzins
This does not offend me. I am not Mormon.

However, if Mormonism is the one true religion, then it's fine that someone baptizes me after death. This way, in this life I can enjoy beer, wine, Dr. Pepper and Ice Tea.

If Mormonism isn't the one true religion, which I believe to be the case, then no harm done to me. But I can still enjoy beer, wine, Dr. Pepper and Ice Tea.

I'll never know about polygamy though: I think my wife might be a little peeved if I brought home another wife someday. My wife does watch that HBO show about the polygamist. She keeps asking if I'll watch it, and I keep telling her that the only way I'm watching that show is if she invites over two of her single friends.

6 posted on 02/05/2007 4:36:29 AM PST by Koblenz (The Dem Platform, condensed: 1. Tax and Spend. 2. Cut and Run. 3. Man on Man)
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To: Koblenz

I wonder if you can get heavenly married to more than one fictional wife?


7 posted on 02/05/2007 4:39:42 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: xzins

Seems just as legitimate as baptizing days old babies...


8 posted on 02/05/2007 4:41:13 AM PST by Iscool (There will be NO peace on earth, NOR good will toward men UNTIL there is Glory to God in the Highest)
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To: xzins
"Pope Benedict was baptised at birth and will most likely be baptised again one year after his death, not by his Roman Catholic Church but by a Mormon he never met."

There is NO point baptizing a person AFTER they are DEAD!

Pointless!
9 posted on 02/05/2007 4:42:23 AM PST by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God) .)
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To: xzins
"I wonder if you can get heavenly married to more than one fictional wife? "

Sure thing!

After you're dead, FR will marry you to another woman.

Not sure how we'll work out the honeymoon unless she's into necrophilia.
10 posted on 02/05/2007 4:44:25 AM PST by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God) .)
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To: nmh
There is NO point baptizing a person AFTER they are DEAD!

C'mon, where's your imagination??? If through a ritual someone can turn fermented hooch and a cracker into the body and blood of God, and then claim to eat the actual body and blood of God, anything's possible...

Besides, their unbiblical 'tradition' is just as good as anyone else's...

11 posted on 02/05/2007 4:48:03 AM PST by Iscool (There will be NO peace on earth, NOR good will toward men UNTIL there is Glory to God in the Highest)
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To: NYer; AnAmericanMother; Tax-chick

Ping


12 posted on 02/05/2007 5:22:36 AM PST by Huber (And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. - John 1:5)
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To: xzins
"They remove any names that could potentially cause criticism,"

Melchizedek.

13 posted on 02/05/2007 5:25:30 AM PST by Enosh
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To: xzins

Funny stuff if it were not so scary... they are clearly a cult. As a Christian I have sent away more than one Mormon from my door with questions in their minds, and I subsequently have prayed for them to get out of their bondage.

From exmormon.org:


1. In Temple recommend interviews, members are told that the interviewer represents Jesus and should answer all questions as if they were talking to Jesus. This is a break down of barriers designed to condition the member to completely submit to church’s authority

2. Naked touching in the temple washing and anointing ritual also breaks down barriers, creates submission to church authority [This eternal ordinance was changed in Jan 2005 see mormon366.htm ]

3. New name, suggests reassignment of identity

4. Temple endowment experience is hypnotic, produces a relaxed, even sleepy alpha like state for receptivity to church indoctrination, oaths, instruction, commitment. Similar to Moonie repetitive indoctrination sessions where chanting, singing, and long periods of lecturing happen.

5. Secret signs, tokens, passwords to get into Mormon heaven. If one does not have this exclusive information, they will be denied access past certain angels along the way back to God's presence. This is an element of control designed to produce exclusivity

6. Requirement to wear church approved underwear night and day, conditioned to believe they possess special protections. Another design to control via exclusivity

7. Strict tithing requirements. Yearly face to face confrontation with a high church authority to declare to him (as the lord’s representative) how much money the member was able to give to the church. Encouraged to give everything that the lord blesses you with even ones time, talents to the building up of the LDS church. In addition to tithes, generous fast offerings are encouraged. Giving to other charities or worthy causes outside the church is heavily discouraged. The member intuitively knows that the tithing, fast offering, missionary funds and perpetual education funds must be donated to first... and only THEN should outside charities be considered. This cult characteristic, to me, falls under extreme duress to give only to the church organization. The member is even told that if the tithing is not "honest" they will literally burn up at the Lord's 2nd coming.

8. Outsiders not permitted to enter the temple. Exclusivity.

9. Members believe Jesus literally walks the halls of the temples and no other buildings on earth receive this privilege. There is only Faith promoting rumors to back this up of course. Yet it is a very strong and widely held belief in the church that this is so.

10. There is a blatant Us vs. Them mentality. The LDS testimony conditions members to “know” based on feelings that they are the only ones on earth with the Truth or approved plan of God. Everyone else is wrong and must be saved or baptized into the LDS church. This doctrine goes as far as to maintain that every living human who has ever lived in this earth must be baptized. While logically impossible, the doctrine is widely believed. God will figure it out. This rationality is supposed to support this impossibility

11. LDS church has more evidence to prove it false than it does to prove it true, yet members see this as a test of faith and God’s way of strengthening his "Elect". Or members have been conditioned to never look at this material. Very similar to the Moonie approach that outside information was evil and falls under satanic origins. Anything that could potentially deprogram a Moonie was satanic. Family members, spouses, newspaper articles, radio... you get the idea.

12. Members are encouraged strongly to never look at “anti” literature. Yet early apostles encouraged the discovery of truth and preached openly that truth would stand up to highest degree of scrutiny. This was before damning evidences to the church's platform of ideology was widely known or even challenged. During this era, the church had a sense of infallibility as the saints were securely sequestered in the desert of Utah. Completely isolated from the outside world.

13. Bishop interviews are obsessed with sexual purity for youth & missionaries. Adults have been told which sexual acts are permissible and which are not. Though, this is not consistent throughout the church. Young people must disclose any sexual acts, even minor ones. This young person (male or female) believes they are talking to Jesus Christ's representative in these interviews. Lying to the bishop is equated to lying to Jesus.

14. Missions are extreme examples of Cult experience.

A. 80 hrs a week free labor (Missionary makes no money) in fact the missionary pays largely for his own meals, lodging, transportation and clothing out of his own pocket. The missionary is told that the 2 years in service is a "tithing" of the first 19 years of his life that God gave him/her.
B. When not working in field one is encouraged to read scripture & pray constantly
C. High amounts of self-indoctrination and mass indoctrination at zone, district meetings. Guilt tactics are used. If low recruit numbers are happening, the missionary is frequently blamed. Reasons for low recruit numbers are tied to unlikely reasons such as a lack of dedication or commitment to mission rules or even a suggestion that too many missionaries were masturbating too frequently in the past month. This is a gross abuse of mind control.
D. Encouraged to frequently recite scripture and hymns, carry a prayer in ones heart at all times so as to fortify ones efforts to keep rules, remain "sanctified to the cause" and not have impure thoughts or masturbate.
E. No outside influences, no TV, no radio
F. Must always be with companion except for showers and toilet
G. Confined to one area, not permitted to go outside geographic boundaries
H. Extreme limited contact with family, letters once a week, no phone call home but twice a year
I. Primary job is to recruit new members, give the prospect milk and NO meat doctrine. Deception (by only telling the rewritten version of the church's history and doctrine) is encouraged most often without the missionary NOT knowing he is testifying to untruths.
J. Every person met is sized up as potential recruit,
K. Current members are badgered for referrals for new recruits, friends and neighbors
L. Loaded language, acronyms. Outsiders cannot follow many regular LDS conversations

15. If one ever leaves the church, they are told and conditioned to think they will be sent to outer darkness in the afterlife. There is a fear of imminent damnation if they leave the group.

16. One man (the prophet figure) speaks for God. Members see this as extremely positive as they believe the prophet will never lead them astray. When confronted that prior prophets in history have been wrong or even preached harmful doctrine that was widely held up as God's word (racial discrimination) the member quickly dismisses this. This is supported by the perceived good works the church produces and the notion that Mormonism produces good people and strong families.


14 posted on 02/05/2007 5:33:53 AM PST by Ted
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To: xzins

Nothing like covering all your bases.


15 posted on 02/05/2007 5:38:25 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: xzins

WWEEEEIIIIIIIRRRRRDDDDDD!!!!


16 posted on 02/05/2007 6:16:50 AM PST by Brian Sears (Time flies like an arrow, and fruit flies like a bannana)
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To: xzins; Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; ...
Church rules say deceased who were born in the past 95 years should not be submitted for baptism without permission from their living relatives, but the IGI shows this is often ignored.

Optionally, everyone has a right to approach the LDS and complete a form stating they do not want to be baptized after death. That's what I plan to do.

17 posted on 02/05/2007 6:19:33 AM PST by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: xzins
Interesting.

It doesn't worry me -- I have a cousin who is a lunatic-fringe Mormon, with three wives and (at last count) 33 children. He's baptized everybody, including our GGG grandfather who was a Baptist deacon. He told me, though, that everyone has the opportunity to accept or reject the baptism, that nobody is baptized against their will.

So, no harm, no foul. I think that the spokesman in the article is right -- it's kind of amusing, and does no harm. I think the Jews who have been outraged about this are just spinning their wheels and should just laugh about it.

Cousin & I actually have had some interesting discussions about LDS beliefs, he was amazed that I was actually conversant enough to have a reasonable discussion. I'm not going to come down on him like a ton of bricks, although I think he is grievously mistaken. Believe it or not, the LDS church has really straightened out his life, he was going nowhere but big trouble before he converted.

18 posted on 02/05/2007 6:27:17 AM PST by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: Iscool

I forgive you for your comment about the Holy Eucharist.


19 posted on 02/05/2007 6:33:07 AM PST by TheStickman
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To: xzins; Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; ...
Church rules say deceased who were born in the past 95 years should not be submitted for baptism without permission from their living relatives, but the IGI shows this is often ignored.

Optionally, everyone has a right to approach the LDS and complete a form stating they do not want to be baptized after death. That's what I plan to do.

20 posted on 02/05/2007 6:34:54 AM PST by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: Koblenz; EveningStar
However, if Mormonism is the one true religion, then it's fine that someone baptizes me after death.

Wasn't there a South Park episode where God tells everyone on Judgment Day "Oh, by the way, the Mormons were right all along."

21 posted on 02/05/2007 6:38:05 AM PST by Larry Lucido
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To: AnAmericanMother

Family reunions must be fun...

They can baptize me til the cows come home if it'll make them feel better...


22 posted on 02/05/2007 6:38:16 AM PST by Iscool (There will be NO peace on earth, NOR good will toward men UNTIL there is Glory to God in the Highest)
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To: Iscool
"Seems just as legitimate as baptizing days old babies..."

Or circumcising days-old Jewish boys?

23 posted on 02/05/2007 6:38:30 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o
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To: Iscool
"If through a ritual someone can turn fermented hooch and a cracker into the body and blood of God, and then claim to eat the actual body and blood of God, anything's possible..."

I'd love to see you debate this with that guy in John 6.

24 posted on 02/05/2007 6:41:32 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o (Ye also have seen me, and believe not.)
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To: NYer

Since I don't think it has any effect whatsoever, I don't really care one way or the other.

I find the belief interesting, but I don't find it to be biblical.

I find it to be inconsistent with grace through faith.


25 posted on 02/05/2007 6:42:04 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: TheStickman
Pray for the conversion of those who blaspheme against Our Lord Jesus Christ, truly present in the Blessed Sacrament.

More to the point of this article, I'll note that no matter how nutty I might consider their theology, I've never met a Mormon/LDS who was not by his personal demeanor an excellent ambassador for his particular faith.

26 posted on 02/05/2007 6:42:16 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Huber

I'm sure the Holy Father will sigh and shake his head over this in the hereafter.


27 posted on 02/05/2007 6:42:36 AM PST by Tax-chick ("It is my life's labor to bring Christ to souls and souls to Christ through word and example.")
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To: xzins
This has outraged Jews and baffled Christians who see it as usurping the memory of their departed relatives. The LDS says it cannot stem the tide of dead baptised in its own temples.

They can STOP DOING IT and prohibit the practice.

28 posted on 02/05/2007 6:44:27 AM PST by wagglebee ("We are ready for the greatest achievements in the history of freedom." -- President Bush, 1/20/05)
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To: xzins
Mormons can "baptize" me when I'm dead. And I can pray for deceased Mormons. Or I could place their names in a book and commend it to the intergalactic Klingon empire. So what?

Wild theories about the afterlife make good copy in Zimbabwe, I guess.

29 posted on 02/05/2007 6:44:55 AM PST by marshmallow
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To: wagglebee; marshmallow

They believe it is biblical. (1 Corinthians 15)

See marshmallow's #29. He/she has it exactly.

I think it's an interesting comparative religion article.

Theologically, it means that there was absolutely no point in Jesus' sacrifice.


30 posted on 02/05/2007 6:48:18 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: xzins

I wonder if anyone will baptize Saddam?


31 posted on 02/05/2007 6:53:09 AM PST by CholeraJoe (Spork weasels ain't afraid of nuthin' but running out of sardines.)
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To: CholeraJoe

He's not even at 95 days yet, much less 95 years. :>)

I'll bet you'd be hard pressed to find a Mormon who's related to him, though.


32 posted on 02/05/2007 6:57:06 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: xzins

If Muslims can get 72 virgins, why not?

I thought the point of heaven was to get away from your wife? Kidding of course.

Nah, no marriage or being taken in marriage on the other side... as far as I know.

I wonder if they go by obituaries as well? A lot of folks have no religious affiliation. I guess if they were EMTs or ER employees they could baptize before they died... or after.


33 posted on 02/05/2007 6:57:11 AM PST by AliVeritas (Stop Global Dhimming. Demand testicular fortitude from the hill. Call the crusade.)
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To: AliVeritas

I think you have to be related to the person you get baptized for. That's why they do all the geneological research.

That point isn't entirely rational either. Since the Mormons believe in the Noah story, they have to believe that everyone is some level of distant relative.


34 posted on 02/05/2007 6:59:18 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: Iscool
If through a ritual someone can turn fermented hooch and a cracker into the body and blood of God, and then claim to eat the actual body and blood of God, anything's possible...

True.

How about a man rising from the dead?

That's pretty far-fetched too, aint it?

35 posted on 02/05/2007 7:07:41 AM PST by marshmallow
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To: TheStickman

Be prepared for 70 times 7


36 posted on 02/05/2007 7:09:30 AM PST by Running On Empty
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To: HarleyD

Seriously, though, Harley, what does this say about the necessity of Christ's sacrifice?


37 posted on 02/05/2007 7:13:29 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: xzins

What a nutty religion. The idea that a dead person can be baptized or married is ludicrous. Maybe this is the only way that Mormons can get anyone to join their cult, I mean, church.


38 posted on 02/05/2007 7:14:52 AM PST by steadfastconservative
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To: TheStickman
I forgive you for your comment about the Holy Eucharist.

Doesn't matter one way or the other to me...

I am filled with the 'real presence' of Jesus Christ 24/7 as are all Christians who have called upon the name of the Lord to save them...We have been adopted into the Family...God is our father...We do not need a cannibalistic sacrifice of our God to remain or continue in the family or to come in contact with the presence of Jesus...

We are there, man...It's all over but the rocket ride...My address is Gold Ave, Heaven...My home is a mansion...

And when God says, 'Come up hither', I'll be lifting off in the twinkling of an eye...

39 posted on 02/05/2007 7:15:10 AM PST by Iscool (There will be NO peace on earth, NOR good will toward men UNTIL there is Glory to God in the Highest)
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To: Iscool
If through a ritual someone can turn fermented hooch and a cracker into the body and blood of God, and then claim to eat the actual body and blood of God, anything's possible...

Are you saying that Are you saying that it would not be possible for God to Transubstantiate Himself in the Eucharist? Or do you believe that Transubstantiation is possible but that Jesus just lied about it in John 6?

40 posted on 02/05/2007 7:17:50 AM PST by wagglebee ("We are ready for the greatest achievements in the history of freedom." -- President Bush, 1/20/05)
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To: Iscool

"Seems just as legitimate as baptizing days old babies..."

I wouldn't expect you to understand the concept of original sin.
Since you seem so interested you really should learn more about the way the Apostles and those who were acquainted with them understood and practiced the Faith.
There are Catholic and Orthodox churches out there that would welcome you.


41 posted on 02/05/2007 7:18:44 AM PST by rogator
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To: nmh

LOL! Mr. Trisham claims that one wife is more than enough.


42 posted on 02/05/2007 7:20:13 AM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: Iscool; TheStickman
I am filled with the 'real presence' of Jesus Christ 24/7 as are all Christians who have called upon the name of the Lord to save them...

I don't see anything about a "real presence" here:

I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.
John 6:51-55

I will ask again, was Jesus lying to his disciples here?

43 posted on 02/05/2007 7:24:13 AM PST by wagglebee ("We are ready for the greatest achievements in the history of freedom." -- President Bush, 1/20/05)
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To: marshmallow
Mormons can "baptize" me when I'm dead. And I can pray for deceased Mormons. Or I could place their names in a book and commend it to the intergalactic Klingon empire. So what?

*************

Exactly. It's an interesting article, but that's about it for me.

44 posted on 02/05/2007 7:27:22 AM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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Much prayer and reparation should be done by all Catholics reading this thread for the outrageous blasphemies contained in some posts.

MOST Holy Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, I adore Thee profoundly.
I offer Thee the Most Precious Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ,
present in all the tabernacles of the world,
in reparation for the outrages, sacrileges, and indifference by which He is offended.
And through the infinite merit of His Most Sacred Heart, and the Immaculate Heart of Mary,
I beg of Thee the conversion of poor sinners.

45 posted on 02/05/2007 7:30:26 AM PST by murphE (These are days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed but his own. --G.K. Chesterton)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
I'd love to see you debate this with that guy in John 6.

That fella in John Chapter 6 and I have had many converstaions about your Eucharist...

I have participated in communion many times...I have eaten the flesh and drank the blood, spiritually...I worship in Spirit and Truth...

I do not build a temple and an altar...I do not provide a sacrifice at an altar...I do not burn incense at an altar...

God does not require a sacrifice from Christians other than the Sacrifice of His Son, once for all...I participate in communion in remembrance of that one sacrifice...

Like Jesus said, the sacrifice, is finished..

46 posted on 02/05/2007 7:35:23 AM PST by Iscool (There will be NO peace on earth, NOR good will toward men UNTIL there is Glory to God in the Highest)
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To: Iscool
Actually, our family reunions ARE fun. Our family is full of eccentrics, so one more is not really noticed.

My mama remarked that all the children are VERY well behaved . . . he only brings one wife and her children to the reunions . . . but mama said it's the first time a 6 year old child has ever offered to help her with the dishes -- and did a good job!

47 posted on 02/05/2007 7:36:38 AM PST by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: ArrogantBustard
More to the point of this article, I'll note that no matter how nutty I might consider their theology, I've never met a Mormon/LDS who was not by his personal demeanor an excellent ambassador for his particular faith.

Bump. If salvation were an earned thing, heaven would be populated exclusively by Mormons.
48 posted on 02/05/2007 7:36:43 AM PST by Old_Mil (http://www.gohunter08.com/)
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To: Iscool
You could take an example of charity and not be QUITE so flip about the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

I mean . . . what if your interpretation of Scripture (not the literal one btw) turns out to be wrong? It would be better to be convicted of a misunderstanding than mocking and flouting, I think . . .

< . . . offering reparations . . . >

49 posted on 02/05/2007 7:39:12 AM PST by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: wagglebee
Are you saying that Are you saying that it would not be possible for God to Transubstantiate Himself in the Eucharist? Or do you believe that Transubstantiation is possible but that Jesus just lied about it in John 6?

Neither...I'm saying you guys take it out of context and mis-interpret the scripture...

50 posted on 02/05/2007 7:41:55 AM PST by Iscool (There will be NO peace on earth, NOR good will toward men UNTIL there is Glory to God in the Highest)
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