Posted on 02/05/2007 10:35:59 AM PST by MichaelTheeArchAngel
What part of "they SHALL be one as we ARE one" don't YOU understand?
The issue is that if you cannot grasp the meaning and messge of clear, unambiguous writing then you are unlikely to graps the meanings of other verses.
Can you honestly hold on to one or two verses that seem to say what you want them to say while ignoring verses that clearly set up contradictory positions?
Obviously God is superior to Jesus. That also makes Jesus inferior to God. There is no disrespct there.
1Cr 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
It is also clear that Jesus does not exalt himself against God and sits at God's right hand.
You say I can't use terms not found in the bible, such as "God, the Son." But that IS in the bible! "It is God the only Son, who is close to the Father's heart, who has made him known."
You simply made that up. As you must to support unBiblical teachings.
The very phrase "begotten Son of God" is a denial of monotheism, unless the Son of God is also God himself. (We are sons of God through adoption, not through having been begotten.) That which is begotten is the same nature of that which begets. A dog begets a dog; a human begets a human. That which is begotten of a god is a god, or at least a demigod. But Jesus is begotten of God (even though he was not made). Hence, if God is a god, then Jesus is a god. Yet, if there can be only one god, then God and Jesus share the same divinity.
LOL..what utter nonsense! Very simply, if God is God and Jesus is God then you have two Gods. If you still want to say that those two are really one who is two, don't for get, there is only one God and that God is one, not two, or three.
God is spirit, (John 4:24) and not flesh. If God Almighty can create the heavens and the earth, I don't suppose it is hard at all for him to creat a perfect sperm inside a young believer named Mary in order to have a perfect human baby who doesn't share the sinful nature found in human blood since the fall of Adam. This is also the 'genesis' of Christ. Unless, of course, you really believe that God (who is spirit) somehow actually slept with Mary like some incubus. But I don't think so.
I'd address the rest of your post but it seems like you're off on a tangent.
Too bad the Bible disagrees. Of course, if the baptismal passage hammered on above (though hardly disproved) was the only basis for the doctrine, that would be one thing. For those who read and understand scripture as a whole, this article is laughable.
If it's heresy, then why did Jesus endorse it by praising Thomas addressed him as "my God"? Then there's the small matter of Him saying "Before Abraham was, I am." The Jewish authorities knew what he meant, and they got even more worked up about it than you did, for that very reason. They were ready to stone him.
You have no idea whom God is referring to as "us" or "our".
"shall be" is irrelevant to the point. Once ya'll are one, its not a trinity anymore.
If Thomas calling Jesus god, then what about when Jesus called Peter Satan? I'd think that Jesus knows more than Thomas.
Look up the figure of speech called 'hendiadys' and then you'll understand about Thomas.
The Jewish authorities would have known he was mad and insane had he claimed to be God Almighty.
However, the possibility that Jesus could be the messiah, the Christ, the one sent from God was a real possibility and for that they hated him.
I guess that Jesus also made monkeys out of them through scripture and their own words didn't help matters!
I'd agree about 99% with you.
Technically, "good works" (Agathos ergon) can only be done by believers working via holy spirit, thus are blessed by God.
However, if Jesus is God, the believers are doing greater works than God.
Jesus himself promised that those of the church of the body would do greater works than he and I can believe that, but I cant believe that those same believers can do greater works than God.
Yes I do. The same "us" that Isaiah identifies here: "The Spirit [Holy Spirit] of the Lord God [the Father] is upon me [the Son]...." [Isaiah 61:1]
IMHO, we both stand on shakey ground attmpting to argue the point in either direction. This is not to be lukewarm on the topic, rather by acknowledging God provides all faith to us, when we in our volition choose to worship Him, lay ourselves out not doing anything but His will, then we are in fellowship with Him. He has created us body, soul , and reborn in spirit, so by remaining in fellowship with Him in all things, He performs His good work in us.
He also created us to perform good works, but those are only Divinely good if performed through faith in our Lord Savior, Christ Jesus.
There are also many doctrines regarding the indwelling of all three persons of the Godhead in us, however, any bickering over which is God, IMHO, is a very slippery slope where even if one side has the right conclusion, it might be thought of improperly in the emiricism or possibly rationalism, or perhaps even linguisitcally in semantics or syntax, to where either side might slip out of truth, thereby argueing from a scarred soulish position rather than through faith in Him that had remained in fellowship with Him throughout.
I suspect that there are many believers in God through faith in Christ, who might not correlate the exact meaning of the Trinity. Nevertheless, He builds us up, faith upon faith, further sanctifying us.
IMHO, there is probably more importance in remaining in fellowship with Him in all things, all being members of the royal family of God, not relying on arrogance nor upon egotism, but only upon Him, His santifying us at His pace, by His plan, and always with us obedient to His will.
0;^)
With that said, there is the right perspective and the wrong perspective. IMHO, The perspective of the God revealed to us in three persons is right. hehehe
BTW, there have been some comments in this dialogue regarding the nature of oneness. I suspect there may be a considerable amount of insight provided by word studies and close introspection of our anthropology, as well as, perceiving wheather certain actions of God were attributable to the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit, regardless of one's past theological conclusions.
I know my heart rejoices at Uncle Chip's posts discerning the actions of the Father, discerned from the Son, discerned from the Holy Spirit.
I've also found a wealth of guidance as to how man should think, decide, act, and exercise faith by studying our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus, coupled with the principle of love with the Father and all humanity. These issues always seem to reveal so much regarding the human spirit, which is completely blinded to the unbeliever and carnal Christian. Even moreso, the entire topic, if I were to try an communicate with my fellow man, I find to be so well phrased and exemplified in Scripture, that the Bible puts all other sophisticated human writing to shame.
From Kant to Pearce, I know no more rigourous communication by writing than the Scripture, not to mention the living nature of that edifice in us while we remain in fellowship with Him, thereby allowing the Holy Spirit who indwells us to perform His good works in and through us even more.
Each believer has their own proper pastor-teacher who has been Divinely inspired with spiritual gifts to communicate His Word to other believers. Not all believers have the same pastor-teacher, so it isn't appropriate for me to condemn your position (even though I'm right ;^), however there may be other situations which as long as we all remain in fellowship with Him, He is preparing us for to perform His good works through us.
As an added bonus, He has given us volition, and when we choose to abide in Him, and through faith perform those works, He provides us with wisdom and we have another hope for those rewards predestined for us in heaven since eternity past for our Lord and Savior to reward as He sees fit.
(Of course, I must admit I suspect those who don't think He is God might leave a good number of rewards unclaimed on the heavenly table as an eternal memorial of their foolishness, but that's not for me to decide, but for our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus to whom all glory, honor, power, might, wisdom, praise, and riches are to be given.)
I don't see any "us" in that Hebrew writing. What did you do just open the Bible and point at something?
I'm surprised you, above anyone else, would swallow things determined in early orthodox counsels.
First, I can't find YHWH used in the new testament even though it is common in the OT.
Second, to confess the Lord Jesus means that you have to make Jesus Lord and that goes beyond just saying it. Confession indicates making your beliefs of mind and heart one. No, not one as in identical, but one in unity, singleness of purpose.
Futhermore, is isn't making the glorified Christ lord, it is making the lowly, mocked and tortured Jesus who suffered for us your lord. Anyone can kneel before a powerful, glorious being but it is different to confess as lord the one that was stripped, humiliated, beaten and killed as lord.
And I doubt that Marx, Hitler or Stalin did that.
Was/is Jesus a man? Of course, the Bible says so repeatedly.
But was he "only" a man or 'merely' a man? No!
Jesus conception was not of a man's seed, but of a perfectly created one that did not have the sinful nature that we share.
Hbr 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
He took part but did not partake. He shared the flesh but not the blood. The flesh was of Mary but the blood from his Father.
In that he is unique among men. This gave him the ability to resist temptation...and yes, unlike God, Jesus was tempted. He was tempted to resist his terrifying crucifixion but submitted to his Father's will.
Also, he was tempted in all ways like we are...with power, self fulfillment, lust, etc. but he was able to resist because of a strong will and sinless blood.
He had to be a man in order to fulfull the passover laws and be the perfect sacrifice, being one of the sheep of the flock. But it was his shedding of sinless blood that paid the price for our sins.
So you see, IMO it is extremely important to get the details as precise as possible in understanding who God and Jesus are and what it was that they accomplished.
Had Jesus been just another man, or had he been a god-man, he couldn't have fulfilled his role.
The Trinity is the nature of God. I've explained the concept and given you evidence to back it up. You've addressed none of it. Instead you post claims and sciptures containing claims and ignore the rest. There is no logic in your argument. You pick a claim, then choose scripture to suit your claim, which clearly contradicts the other scriptures you ignore. That is how doctrine is created and that's all you have.
"Trinitarian doctrine is like evolution in that they both rely on falsehoods to maintain credibiliity to their adherents." Whatever.
You must realize that I have considered both sides of this issue, not only to persuade myself one way or another, but as one who seeks to persuade others. I believe and teach that Jesus is the only begotten son of God.
If I am wrong, first off I am guilty of wrongly dividing God's word and then teaching tainted doctrine. And I've accepted that if wrong I'll be accountable.
But what about those who teach that Jesus is also God in the Flesh? What if that is wrong? What is the consequence of that error?
BTW, that also states that there is one mediator between man and God, the man Christ Jesus, so what about priests and Mary? Aren't they made out to be mediators between God and man?
If you can't see 'my' logic it is because you either don't want to or you've been blinded.
If you describe God you'll say that he is the creator, that he is invisible, that he is one, that he is spirit, that he is all knowing, that he is eternal (ie, cannot die), cannot be tmepted, is the father of Jesus Christ, is not a man, is not the son of man, and is over all.
If you describe Jesus you'll say that he is the only begotten son of God, is a man, was visible, was of limited knowledge, was tempted in all ways, was flesh and blood, died for sinners, was raised from the dead and sits at the right hand of God.
Clearly there are differences between God Almighty and his son Jesus Christ.
For there to be a trinity there must be three and those three are all God, yet that these three are really one. God the Father, God the Son (non Biblical term) and God the Holy Ghost (another non Biblical term) and these three are supposed to be co equal and co eternal. And these three are one being who is three beings in one person and one person who has three beings.....
Yet the Bible clearly states that there is one God and that God is one, and that there is one Lord Jesus Christ, a man who is the only mediator beteen man and God.
Do you see three distinct persons in Isaiah 61:1: "the Spirit, the Lord God, and me"?
I think that would imply He wasn't God Incarnate, so If He were not the perfect Sacrifice in body, soul and spirit, it really wouldn't matter, would it? We would still be condemned without redemption. But we both know that is not the case.
>> Slow down...you're starting to attribute things to me that I didn't say or didn't say in the context you claim. John 1 is used as a proof text but is an excellent example of a text that seemingly says something to support your beliefs while creating many contradictory verses in the Bible. <<
Translation: it doesn't fit your interpretation of other verses, so rather than re-evaluating your own interpretation, you're just going to nullify the Word of God.
>> The issue is that if you cannot grasp the meaning and messge of clear, unambiguous writing then you are unlikely to graps the meanings of other verses. <<
Sounds like you're the one having trouble. My understanding is the same as Christians throughout history.
>> Obviously God is superior to Jesus. That also makes Jesus inferior to God. There is no disrespct there <<
Balderdash! Jesus submits to his Father, not because He is inferior, but because He is providing an example to us: "He who is without sin became sin for our sake."
>>>> "It is God the only Son, who is close to the Father's heart, who has made him known." <<<<
>> You simply made that up. As you must to support unBiblical teachings. <<
No, I did not. It is John 1:18b. In Greek: "monogenus theos on eis ton kolpos tou patros ekeinos exilisato." Translated word by word this reads, "onlybegotten god, the one [who] is in the lap of the father who has explained." (Word-Study Greek-English New Testament, Paul McReynolds, ed.) Or, slightly more translated, "It is the only begotten god, who is in the lap of the father, who revealed him."
NLT: "But his only Son, who is himself God, is near to the Father's heart; he has told us about him."
NIV: "No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known."
NASB: "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained {Him.}"
>> LOL..what utter nonsense! Very simply, if God is God and Jesus is God then you have two Gods. <<
See, you refuse to accept the statement, "Jesus is God," not because it isn't biblical -- it is biblical -- but because you cannot accept that two persons can both be the same God. If you refuse to believe that, fine. But that is what the bible says. Does the bible sound like "utter nonsense" to you? Paul said it would.
If you will not accept his Word, Go ahead and reject Christ. He will call you back. Explore the other explanations of this word, atheism, nihilism, or other religions. But you are sitting on the fence, proclaiming yourself a believer, while you will not believe. The bible says, "if you turn and forsake him he will gently call your name." But it is the one who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit who cannot be forgiven.
[Note on John 1:18b. The KJV reads, "The only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him]" This translation is based on the Vulgate, in the full verse, "Deum nemo vidit umquam unigenitus Filius qui est in sinu Patris ipse enarravit." Jerome resolved the awkwardness of having two seperate persons referred to as "God," by refering to God the Father as "the Father" and God the Son as "the Son," as done in the Nicene Creed. However, the word "theos," which occurs in the Greek, plainly means "god."]
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