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The Early Church Fathers on Justification - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
Stay Catholic ^

Posted on 02/14/2007 2:14:45 PM PST by NYer

The Early Church Fathers believed we are justified by faith and works. The works in question are not accomplished by the goodness of the individual, but by the grace of God.

Clement of Rome

Let us therefore join with those to whom grace is given by God. Let us clothe ourselves in concord, being humble and self- controlled, keeping ourselves far from all backbiting and slander, being justified by works and not by words. . . . Why was our Father Abraham blessed? Was it not because of his deeds of justice and truth, wrought in faith? . . . So we, having been called through his will in Christ Jesus, were not justified through ourselves or through our own wisdom or understanding or piety or works which we wrought in holiness of heart, but through faith, whereby the almighty God justified all men. (Letter to the Corinthians 30:3, 31:2, 32:3-4 [A.D. 110]).

Theophilus of Antioch

Give studious attention to the prophetic writings, and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. He who gave the mouth for speech and formed the ears for hearing and made eyes for seeing will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things, which neither has eye seen nor ear heard, nor has it entered into the heart of man. For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries and fornications and homosexuality and avarice and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish, and in the end such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire (To Autolycas 1:14 [ca. A.D. 181]).

Clement of Alexandria

When we hear, 'Your faith has saved you,' we do not understand the Lord to say simply that they will be saved who have believed in whatever manner, even if works have not followed. To begin with, it was to the Jews alone that he spoke this phrase, who had lived in accord with the law and blamelessly and who had lacked only faith in the Lord (Stromateis or Miscellanies 6:14:108:4 [post A.D. 202]).

Origen

Whoever dies in his sins, even if he profess to believe in Christ, does not truly believe in him; and even if that which exists without works be called faith, such faith is dead in itself, as we read in the epistle bearing the name of James (Commentaries on John 19:6 [A.D. 226-232]).

Cyprian

You, then, who are rich and wealthy, buy for yourself from Christ gold purified in fire, for with your filth, as if burned away in the fire; you can be like pure gold, if you are cleansed by almsgiving and by works of justice. Buy yourself a white garment so that, although you had been naked like Adam and were formerly frightful and deformed, you may be clothed in the white garment of Christ. You who are a matron rich and wealthy, anoint not your eyes with the antimony of the devil, but with the salve of Christ, so that you may at last come to see God, when you have merited before God both by your works and by your manner of living (Works and Almsgiving 14 [A.D. 252]).

Aphracrtes

Great is the gift which he that is good has given to us. While not forcing us, and in spite of our sins he wants us to be justified. While he is in no way aided by our good works, he heals us that we may be pleasing in his sight. When we do not wish to ask of him, he is angry with us. He calls out to all of us constantly; "Ask and receive, and when you seek, you shall find" (Treatises 23:48 [A.D. 336-345]).

Gregory of Nyssa

Paul, joining righteousness to faith and weaving them together, constructs of them the breastplates for the infantryman, armoring the soldier properly and safely on both sides. A soldier cannot be considered safely armored when either shield is disjoined from the other. Faith without works of justice is not sufficient for salvation; neither is righteous living secure in itself of salvation, if it is disjoined from faith (Homilies on Ecclesiastes 8 [ca. A.D. 335- 394]).

John Chrysostom

He that believes in the Son has everlasting life." Is it enough, then, to believe in the Son,' someone will say, 'in order to have everlasting life?' By no means! Listen to Christ declare this himself when he says, 'Not everyone who says to me, "Lord! Lord!" shall enter into the kingdom of heaven'; and the blasphemy against the Spirit is alone sufficient to cast him into hell. But why should I speak of a part of our teaching? For if a man believe rightly in the Father and in the Son and in the Holy Spirit, but does not live rightly, his faith will avail him nothing toward salvation (Homilies on the Gospel of John 31:1[circa A.D. 391]).

Jerome

But since in the Law no one is justified before God, it is evident that the just man lives by faith.' It should be noted that he does not say that a man, a person, lives by faith, lest it be thought that he is condemning good works. Rather, he says the 'just' man lives by faith. He implies thereby that
whoever would be faithful and would conduct his life according to the faith can in no other way arrive at the faith or live in it except first he be a just man of pure life, coming up to the faith by certain degrees (Commentaries on Galatians 2:3:11 [A.D. 386]).

Augustine

"He was handed over for our offenses, and he rose again for our justification." What does this mean, "for our justification?" So that he might justify us, so that he might make us just. You will be a work of God, not only because you are a man, but also because you are just. For it is better that you be just than that you are a man. If God made you a man, and you made your-self just, something you were doing would be better than what God did. But God made you without any cooperation on your part. You did not lend your consent so that God could make you. How could you have consented, when you did not exist? But he who made you without your consent does not justify you without your consent. He made you without your knowledge, but he does not justify you without your willing it (Sermons 169:13 [inter A.D. 391-430]).

But we know that God does not hear sinners: but if any man is a worshiper of God and does his will, that man God will hear. He still speaks as one only anointed. For God does listen to sinners too. If God did not listen to sinners, it would have been all in vain for the publican to cast down his eyes to the ground and strike his breast saying: "Lord, be merciful to me, a sinner." And that confession merited justification, just as the blind man merited enlightenment (Homilies on the Gospel of John 44:13 [A.D. 416]).


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Orthodox Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; churchfathers; justification; orthodox
Please allow a few minutes to post the Scriputral basis. Thank you.
1 posted on 02/14/2007 2:14:48 PM PST by NYer
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To: Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...

In keeping with guidelines posted by the Religion Moderator, we are posting this thread (and future ones) a series on the Early Church Fathers, as a Catholic/Orthodox Caucus. Protestants are welcome to post comments but restraint from attacks, would be appreciated. This thread is posted to inform, support and defend the historic orgins of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

2 posted on 02/14/2007 2:18:30 PM PST by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: NYer
Scriptural Basis


Scripture

I. Faith Justifies Initially, but Works Perfect and Complete Justification

James 2:24 - the phrase "faith alone" (the Greek "pisteos monon") only occurs once in the Bible. "Man is justified by works and NOT faith alone." Unlike what many Protestant churches teach, no where in Scripture does it say that man is justified or saved by "faith alone." To the contrary, man is not justified by faith alone. In Catholic theology, a person is justified by faith and works acting together, which comes solely from God’s divine grace. Faith alone never obtains the grace of justification (Council of Trent, chapter 8, canon 9). Also, the word “justified” (dikaiow) is the same word Paul uses for justification in Rom. 4:3 in regard to Abraham (so Protestants cannot argue James is not referring to “justification” in James 2:24 unless they argue Paul wasn’t in Rom. 4:3 either).

Heb. 11:6 - faith is indeed the minimum requirement without which we cannot please God. But this is just the beginning of the process leading toward justification. Faith alone does not justify a person. Justification is only achieved by faith and works, as we see below. Also, this gratuitous gift of faith from God also includes the grace of hope and love the moment the person is justified.

Eph. 2:8-9 – Paul teaches us that faith is the root of justification, and that faith excludes “works of law.” But Paul does not teach that faith excludes other kinds of works, as we will see below. The verse also does not say we are justified by “faith alone.” It only indicates that faith comes first. This, of course, must be true, because those who do works outside of faith are in a system of debt, not of grace (more on that later). But faith alone does not justify. A man is justified by works, and not by faith alone. James 2:24.

Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38, 3:19, 17:30 - the faith we have must be a repentant faith, not just an intellectual faith that believes in God. Repentance is not just a thought process (faith), but an act (work) by which we ask God for His mercy and forgiveness.

Psalm 51:17 – this means we need a “broken and contrite heart,” not just an intellectual assent of faith. Faith in God is only the beginning.

John 3:36; Rom. 1:5, 6:17; 15:18; 16:26; 2 Cor. 9:13; 1 Thess. 1:3; 2 Thess. 1:11; 1 Peter 2:7-8; Heb. 5:9; cf. Rev. 3:10; Ex. 19:5 – this faith must also be an “obedient faith” and a “work of faith.” Obedience means persevering in good works to the end.

2 Cor. 10:15 – this faith must also increase as a result of our obedience, as Paul hopes for in this verse. Obedience is achieved not by faith alone, but by doing good works.

2 Cor. 13:5 – Paul also admonishes us to examine ourselves, to see whether we are holding to our faith. This examination of conscience is a pious Catholic practice. Our faith, which is a gift from God, must be nurtured. Faith is not a one-time event that God bestows upon us.

Gal. 5:6 – thus, the faith that justifies us is “faith working through love,” not faith alone. This is one of the best summaries of Catholic teaching. Faith and love (manifested by works) are always connected. Faith (a process of thought) and love (an action) are never separated in the Scriptures. Cf. Eph. 3:17; 1 Thess. 3:6,12-13; 2 Thess. 1:3; 1 John 3:23; Rev. 2:4-5,19. Further, all faith (initial and perfected) are gratuitous gifts from God, and not earned or merited by any human action. God effects everything, both the willing and the achievement. But God also requires human action, which is necessary to perfect our faith.

James 1:22-25 - it's the "doers" who are justified, not the hearers. Justification is based on what we do, which means “works.” Notice that there is nothing about “false faith.” The hearers may have faith, but they need to accompany their faith by works, or they will not be justified. See also Rom. 2:13.

James 2:17,26 - James clearly teaches that faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. Works are a cause, not just an effect, of our justification because good works achieve and increase our justification before God. Scripture never says anything about “saving faith.” Protestants cannot show us from the Scriptures that “works” qualify the “faith” into saving faith. Instead, here and elsewhere, the Scriptures teach that justification is achieved only when “faith and works” act together. Scripture puts no qualifier on faith. Scripture also never says that faith “leads to works.” Faith is faith and works are works (James 2:18). They are distinct (mind and action), and yet must act together in order to receive God’s unmerited gift of justification.

James 2:19 - even the demons believe that Jesus is Lord. But they tremble. Faith is not enough. Works are also required.

James 2:20 - do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Good works in God's grace are required for justification. But there is nothing in the Scriptures about “saving faith.”

James 2:22 - faith is active with works and is completed by works. It does not stand alone. Faith needs works to effect our justification.

James 4:17 - in fact, James writes that the failure to do works is a sin! So works are absolutely necessary for our justification.

James 2:15-17 - here are the examples of the "works" to which James is referring - corporal works of mercy (giving food and shelter to those in need).

James 1:27 - another example of "works" is visiting orphans and widows in their affliction. Otherwise, if they do not perform these good works, their religion is in vain.

James 2:25 - another example of "works" is when Rahab assisted the spies in their escape. Good works increase our justification and perfect our faith.

Joshua 2:9-11 - Rahab's fellow citizens had faith in God, but in Joshua 6:22-25, Rahab alone acted and was saved. This is faith in action.

James 2:18 - to avoid the truth of the Catholic position that we are justified by both faith and works, Protestants argue the justification that James is referring to in James 2 is "before men" and not "before God." Scripture disproves their claim.

James 2:14 - James asks, "Can faith save him?" Salvation comes from God. This proves the justification James is referring to is before God, not men.

James 2:19 - also, James reminds us that even the demons believe and tremble. This refers to our relationship with God, not with men. Thus, our justification that requires works and not faith alone relates to our status before God, not men.

James 2:21 - James also appeals to the example of Abraham. Abraham's justification refers to his position before God, not men. This proves justification is before God, not men.

Acts. 10:35 – Peter teaches that anyone who fears the Lord and does what is right is acceptable to Him. It is both fear and works, not fear alone.

Rom. 2:7,10 - to those who by patience and good works will be granted glory and honor and peace from the Lord.

Rom. 2:13 – for it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. Paul is referring to the “law of Christ” in Gal.6:2, not “works of the law” in Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16; 3:2,5,10; and Eph. 2:8-9. The “law of Christ” is faith in Christ and works based on grace (God owes us nothing) and “works of the law” mean no faith in Christ, and legal works based on debt (God owes us something).

Rom. 4:5-6 – to him who does not work but believes, his faith is accounted to him as righteousness, like David, who was righteous apart from works. Here, Paul is emphasizing that works must be done in faith, not outside of faith. If they are done outside of faith, we are in a system of debt (God owes us). If they are done in faith (as James requires), we are in a system of grace (God rewards us). Hence, Paul accepts the works performed under God’s forbearance (grace) in Rom. 2:7,10,13 (see also Rom. 14:10-12; 1 Cor. 3:12-17; and 2 Corinthians 5:10) which lead to justification and eternal life. These verses have nothing to do with “faith alone.” Paul uses the word “alone” three times in Rom. 4:12,16,23, but never uses it with “faith.” Certainly, if he wanted to teach “faith alone,” he would have done so.

Rom. 6:16 - obedience leads to righteousness. Obedience is a good "work," an act of the will, which leads to righteousness before God.

2 Cor. 9:8 - Paul teaches that God will bless us so that we may provide in abundance for "every good work." Good works are encouraged to complete our faith.

Eph. 6:8 - whatever good anyone does will receive the same again from the Lord. God rewards good works done in grace.

Phil. 4:17 – Paul says “I seek the fruit which increases to your credit.” Fruits (good works) increase our justification. Paul says these works increase our “credit,” which is also called “merit.” These merits bring forth more graces from God, furthering increasing our justification as we are so disposed. But the fruits, works, and merits are all borne from God’s unmerited and undeserved mercy won for us by Jesus Christ.

Titus 3:8 - good deeds are excellent and profitable to men (just like the Old Testament Scriptures in 2 Tim. 3:16). Good deeds further justify us before God. This verse should be contrasted with Titus 3:5, where we are not saved by works of righteousness “we have done.” As further discussed below, in this verse what “we have done” refers to a work of law or obligation for which we seek payment. But verse 5 also says the “washing of regeneration” in reference to baptism saves, which is a work of grace, for which we are rewarded by God in Christ. There is a distinction between “works of law or obligation” and “works of grace.”

1 Peter 2:7-8; John 3:36 - shows that belief in Jesus means obeying Jesus. Having faith means being faithful, which requires good works as well. Hence, obeying Jesus means doing works of love, not just having faith alone.

3 posted on 02/14/2007 2:23:19 PM PST by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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Comment #4 Removed by Moderator

To: rrc; NYer
unfortunately, the deformation came along, USING ONLY THE SCRIPTURE and thus arriving at their own understanding, thus turning the traditional teaching from Christ and his apostles and their immediate sucessors, on its head...

If you want this to remain a "Caucus" thread, I suggest you have this post pulled.

5 posted on 02/14/2007 2:45:01 PM PST by Alex Murphy (Until the preordained day that we are to die, we are immortal. On that day, we are inescapably dead.)
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Comment #6 Removed by Moderator

To: rrc; NYer
interesting....what is the problem with the use of that word? did not the church become DEFORMED from its original state,as a result of using only scripture to decide and then only from luther's view of that scripture???

On a "Caucus" thread, there's plenty wrong with it. That is, unless it's your intention (and NYer agrees) that this become an open thread.

7 posted on 02/14/2007 3:20:55 PM PST by Alex Murphy (Until the preordained day that we are to die, we are immortal. On that day, we are inescapably dead.)
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To: Alex Murphy; rrc
If you want this to remain a "Caucus" thread, I suggest you have this post pulled.

I understand your comment. The poster should have avoided the word 'deformation' but appreciate how they arrived at this choice of terminology. For many of us, it is not only confusing but quite painful to see how far the Reformation has misled christians from the truths of the faith. That frustration oftentimes manifests itself in attacking the movement that resulted in this separation. Alex, the purpose of these threads is to demonstrate that the Church established by Christ, continues to this day, unimpeded by 2000 years of various individuals separating themselves from these teachings. It pains all of us to see your enthusiastic love for the "faith", while recognizing that what you have been taught, is in error with what the Early Church Fathers (the first christians) believed.

While I cannot apologize for freeper 'rrc's' poor choice of phrasing, I pray you will accept this explanation.

8 posted on 02/14/2007 3:32:07 PM PST by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: NYer

Catholic bump!


9 posted on 02/14/2007 3:35:54 PM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: NYer; Alex Murphy
Reformation has misled christians from the truths of the faith.

Bang!

This is no Caucus thread.

10 posted on 02/14/2007 3:54:43 PM PST by Enosh (†)
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Comment #11 Removed by Moderator

To: NYer
Cross-referencing a related Catholic Caucus Thread: Justification: "By Faith Alone"?
12 posted on 02/14/2007 5:18:25 PM PST by Titanites
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To: rrc
My understanding, FWIW, is that if the statement, whether or not it is "historical truth" can be understood as an argumentative attack against the position of another part of Christianity or some other religion, then the protection provided by Caucus status is forfeited.

The virtue of a "caucus", as far as I can tell, is that the protection from attacks on the basic principles enables the group to go into a matter in some depth.

13 posted on 02/14/2007 5:20:21 PM PST by Mad Dawg ("global warming -- it's just the tip of the iceberg!")
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To: rrc
since when does speaking historical truth require a 'caucus'?

Exactly.

Try it.

14 posted on 02/14/2007 5:31:15 PM PST by Enosh (†)
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To: NYer

Just a quick comment...I'm not here to stir the pot or anything but just an observation...

I think a lot of the confusion between many protestants and catholics is how the works are looked at in terms of value. I'm a protestant that obviously understands that works flow with and in faith - a living faith...If I am a follower of Christ then I know that to please him I should do as he commands which is to do good works, prepared by Him, for my fellow brothers, it pleases God and yes I do believe He looks favorably on me for pleasing him......I do admit some protestants go so far as to say I believe therefore I don't have to have a living faith, etc...anyway, I had a good conversation with Jo kus about a year ago around this and we ended up finding out that we were saying the EXACT same thing but in a different sentence style...that's all I got...

Blessings to all here and who will be speaking on this topic...


15 posted on 02/14/2007 6:02:58 PM PST by phatus maximus (John 6:29...Learn it, love it, live it...)
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Comment #16 Removed by Moderator

To: rrc

Please note that my initial objection was centered around the comment, in part: "Reformation has misled christians".

This implies that all Protestants are misled and that alone opens your doors.

I, for one, would rally us all to Christ.

I am a Protestant and Christ is my central focus. Many other Protestants agree with that sentiment.

"Misled Christians" is extremely misleading.


17 posted on 02/14/2007 6:18:57 PM PST by Enosh (†)
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Comment #18 Removed by Moderator

To: rrc
our separated brethern are separated for a reason.

And that is what I refute.

We are Christians.

19 posted on 02/14/2007 7:08:35 PM PST by Enosh (†)
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To: Enosh

fwiw. When you follow your name by a cross it means you're either a bishop or dead. lol. Probably didn't know that bit of tradition.

Mystical theologians, Catholics, especially Aquinas, have always understood works to be an outward sign of an inner reality. We can do no good without God.


20 posted on 02/14/2007 7:09:29 PM PST by WriteOn (Truth)
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To: WriteOn

Thank you, I didn't know the tradition.

I am no Bishop, but otherwise it stays.


21 posted on 02/14/2007 7:15:35 PM PST by Enosh (†)
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To: rrc; Religion Moderator; Alex Murphy

It is because using the word "deformation" to derogate the protestant Reformation is a violation of the Religion Moderator's rules for the Religion Forum.

The RM permits caucuses as sort of "closed door business meetings" for the groups invovled.

However, if they engage in negativity toward other groups, then they lose their caucus status.


22 posted on 02/14/2007 7:29:37 PM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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Comment #23 Removed by Moderator

To: rrc; Religion Moderator; Alex Murphy

They are the rules. Other rules are no profanity, no personal attacks, and no racism or violence.

Do you find those to be annoying impositions "so as not to bother anyone's sensitivities?"

Perhaps it isn't clear to you that on a caucus thread, the protestants (in this case) are NOT ALLOWED to respond to your attacks?

(BTW, the quote from Clement that leads this section has Clement agreeing that salvation is by faith and not by works.)


24 posted on 02/14/2007 7:36:28 PM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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Comment #25 Removed by Moderator

To: xzins; NYer

Oh, dear. The RM is at last invoked and our crosses look like spears.

Alas.

The Group Hug thing is right out by now, I suppose.


26 posted on 02/14/2007 7:47:24 PM PST by Enosh (†)
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Comment #27 Removed by Moderator

To: Enosh

Alas....

Crosses actually look more like swords.


28 posted on 02/14/2007 7:50:59 PM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: rrc

The rules do not permit me to discuss it with you.


29 posted on 02/14/2007 7:53:12 PM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: rrc
well then, your refutation flies in the face of the church fathers.....

Nothing could be more false.

Was Peter a Christian before he put ink to paper?

30 posted on 02/14/2007 7:53:43 PM PST by Enosh (†)
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To: xzins

;)


31 posted on 02/14/2007 7:54:43 PM PST by Enosh (†)
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Comment #32 Removed by Moderator

Comment #33 Removed by Moderator

Comment #34 Removed by Moderator

To: rrc
peter doesnt enter into this discussion

What an odd thing for a Catholic to say.

How about Matthew, Mark, Luke and John?

Were they Christians before they set ink to paper?

35 posted on 02/14/2007 8:07:15 PM PST by Enosh (†)
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To: sandyeggo

Thanks.


36 posted on 02/14/2007 8:08:24 PM PST by Enosh (†)
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Comment #37 Removed by Moderator

To: rrc

Please allow me to remind you that the title is "The Early Church Fathers on Justification"

Peter, I think, qualifies.

And, you did not answer my question.


38 posted on 02/14/2007 8:21:01 PM PST by Enosh (†)
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To: rrc; Enosh; xzins

If you wish to discuss the doctrines and beliefs outside the Catholic/Orthodox confession (this caucus) then the thread will be opened for rebuttal.


39 posted on 02/14/2007 8:54:54 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: NYer
The Early Church Fathers

The Early Church Fathers on The Church (Catholic Caucus)

Early Church Fathers on (Oral) Tradition - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus

The Early Church Fathers on Apostolic Succession - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus

The Early Church Fathers on Purgatory - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus

The Early Church Fathers on Salvation Outside the Church [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]

The Early Church Fathers on Mary’s Perpetual Virginity - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus

The Early Church Fathers on The Primacy of Peter/Rome (Catholic/Orthodox Caucus)

The Early Church Fathers on Hell - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus

The Early Church Fathers on Intercession of the Saints - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus

The Early Church Fathers on The Real Presence - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus

The Early Church Fathers on Confession / Reconciliation - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus

The Early Church Fathers on the Immaculate Conception - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus

The Early Church Fathers on Justification - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus

40 posted on 02/14/2007 9:07:41 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: rrc

why is it when i use the word 'deformation', everyone gets their hackles up?

that is certainly what happened to the HISTORIIC unity that was shown by the church fathers on this justification issue, yes or no?

There are many people, baptized with water and the intention to baptize into Christ, His death and His resurrection, and in the name of the Holy Trinity who think that the Church had lost her way by 1500 or so. I disagree of course, but that's neither here nor there. Those people would consider the term "deformation" not only inaccurate but also, because it sounds like "reformation", to be intended as a parody of their beliefs and chosen not only to declare their error or heresy but to tweak them for it.

I think this conjectured reaction would happen whether or not they were correct in holding their opinion. The word in this context gives offense, and I have difficulty in thinking that it was chosen with the active intention of keeping the conversation reasonable, calm, and charitable.

There is unavoidable offense, and there is avoidable offense. My opinion is that this use of the word "deformation" is an instance of avoidable offense. And that is why my hackles were raised. I am trying to answer your question carefully and as accurately as I can.

41 posted on 02/15/2007 6:41:02 AM PST by Mad Dawg ("global warming -- it's just the tip of the iceberg!")
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Comment #42 Removed by Moderator

To: pipeorganman
Your post, while appreciated, is not appropriate for a caucus thread and will be removed.

If you want to make suggestions or just complain about me, take it to this Open Thread so other posters can contribute.

I will send a copy of your post to you by Freepmail so you can repost it over there.

43 posted on 02/15/2007 10:07:47 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: pipeorganman
Oops, wrong link. This is the Open Thread
44 posted on 02/15/2007 10:11:23 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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