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Jesus Family Tomb Talking Points
Gamecock

Posted on 02/26/2007 4:15:48 AM PST by Gamecock

I'm sure that by now all of you have heard about the claim that the ossuary of Christ's family has been found.

I would like to open a thread that will help us develop answers to friends, both Christians and atheists who might come to us with questions about it all.

Please feel free to post your rebuttals for others to use!

Biblical, rational, scientific, philosophical, whatever you can come up with is more than welcome!


TOPICS: Apologetics; Theology
KEYWORDS: apologetics; biblicalarcheology; epigraphyandlanguage; godsgravesglyphs; jamescameron; jesustomb; letshavejerusalem; simchajacobovici; talpiot; theology
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1 posted on 02/26/2007 4:15:50 AM PST by Gamecock
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To: Gamecock

Good idea!


2 posted on 02/26/2007 4:18:40 AM PST by Tax-chick (Every "choice" has a direct object.)
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To: Gamecock
Umm they claim to "have used DNA" to "prove" their claims.

So can anyone explain to us just how they got a DNA sample to match to Jesus Christ's DNA?
3 posted on 02/26/2007 4:26:26 AM PST by MNJohnnie ( If they say "speaking truth to power,"-they haven't had a l thought since the Beatles broke up)
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To: All
My thoughts and some taken from elsewhere in Cyberspace:

1. One mathematician gave "odds" that there was only a 1:600 chance that the boxes of bones belonged to anyone else. This was based on the chance that the names of Christ's family would all be in the same vault.

-1:600 is not really impressive. Would you get on a plane that had 1:600 chance of crashing?

2. We know that there was incredible persecution of the early Christians. Would they risk such persecution if they knew Christ really didn't exist?

3. We also know that the Romans and Jews would have done anything to suppress Christianity. Is it likely that they would have built up a ossuary and put any bones in there in the hopes that they could refute Jesus's claims?

-Is there a chain of custody showing that this was never tampered with.

4. Why would a family from Galilee, and a poor one at that, be buried in Jerusalem, in such an impressive (read expensive) chamber?

5. How do we know that some misguided pilgrim didn't set this up at some point in the distant past?

4 posted on 02/26/2007 4:27:08 AM PST by Gamecock (Ecclesia reformata, semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei)
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To: Gamecock

Hmmm...God's Word or the word of another atheist from Hollywood? Not much of a choice for any believer in Jesus.
This clown just wants the publicity and the money that "The DaVinci Code" got. The best thing for Christians to do is laugh at him for thinking we are dumb enough to give his blasphemy any attention at all.
These enemies of Jesus know that Christians aren't into slitting the throats of blasphemers, as the Muslims would do if he attacked their faith. However, perhaps someone should mention to him that Jesus will punish anyone who endangers the faith of a child, promising that it would be better for him to have a millstone hanged around his neck and before being tossed into the sea.


5 posted on 02/26/2007 4:31:13 AM PST by kittymyrib
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To: Gamecock
I think you would have a hard time convincing Betty Baxter that Jesus isn't alive and well. One of the greatest testimonies in the history of the Church, and just a preview of what is coming.

Betty Baxter Story

6 posted on 02/26/2007 4:31:32 AM PST by HisKingdomWillAbolishSinDeath (All the horns of the wicked also will I cut off; but the horns of the righteous shall be exalted.)
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To: Gamecock
Who is next? Muhammed and the horse?
7 posted on 02/26/2007 4:32:20 AM PST by Bringbackthedraft (I want my next President to have Balls! (Figuratively or literally depending on who is running))
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To: NYer; Campion; TonyRo76; Quix; P-Marlowe; Huber; tutstar; WKB; DaveLoneRanger; FormerLib

Please feel free to ping your respective Ping Lists.

No slight intended if I missed anyone.


8 posted on 02/26/2007 4:32:43 AM PST by Gamecock (Ecclesia reformata, semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei)
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To: drstevej; OrthodoxPresbyterian; CCWoody; Wrigley; Gamecock; Jean Chauvin; jboot; AZhardliner; ...
GRPL Ping

Please ping any other list you may be a menber of....

9 posted on 02/26/2007 4:35:53 AM PST by Gamecock (Ecclesia reformata, semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei)
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To: Gamecock
And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre. And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus. And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments: And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again. And they remembered his words, (Luke 24:2-8 KJV)
10 posted on 02/26/2007 4:38:06 AM PST by P-Marlowe (What happened to my tagline?)
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To: Gamecock

1. Their claims seek to prove God a liar. They cannot, therefore, be true.

2. The chief archeologist that oversaw the work at the tomb, Bar-Ilan University Prof. Amos Kloner, called their claims "nonsense".

3. "There is no likelihood that Jesus and his relatives had a family tomb," Kloner said. "They were a Galilee family with no ties in Jerusalem. The Talpiot tomb belonged to a middle-class family from the 1st century CE."

4. There were many tombs found in the area over the years that had the words "Jesus son of Joseph" inscribed on them.


11 posted on 02/26/2007 4:38:46 AM PST by deaconjim (Because He lives...)
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Comment #12 Removed by Moderator

Comment #13 Removed by Moderator

To: Gamecock

How about Amos Kloner saying the story is "nonsense"? Mt. Athos posted this:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1791244/posts


14 posted on 02/26/2007 4:51:36 AM PST by siunevada (If we learn nothing from history, what's the point of having one? - Peggy Hill)
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To: Gamecock

Purporting to find Christ's bones is nothing more than rehashed Templar pulp fiction.


15 posted on 02/26/2007 4:57:24 AM PST by Enosh (†)
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To: TonyRo76

Is Dan Brown releasing another book?

I am not being sarcastic. This sounds like a PR tie in. The guy that excavated the tomb (can't remember his name off had) says it is most certainly NOT the tomb of Jesus.


16 posted on 02/26/2007 5:09:37 AM PST by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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Comment #17 Removed by Moderator

To: MNJohnnie
There are only two historical sources that spring to mind which might have Christ's DNA - first is the Shroud of Turin; however the authenticity of that is still a matter of debate. The second is a relic which I believe has been lost in the mists of time, the "True Cross" - the cross upon which Christ was nailed. This was a holy symbol for Byzantine emperors, but I believe was lost when the Turks took over the Byzantine empire.

Given this, the idea that they somehow have his DNA isolated is laughable at best.

Regards, Ivan

18 posted on 02/26/2007 5:13:56 AM PST by MadIvan (I aim to misbehave.)
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To: Gamecock

Well, for one, they are appealing to the lies about the Ossuary of James. Whatever researchers think this is credible, presume the Ossuary of James, one of the most pathetic hoaxes in archaeological history, is actually true.

The inscription on the Ossuary of James was scratched THROUGH the patina, proving that the Ossuary was old, but the inscription is new. This discovery, with an empty space that the authors presume to be where the Ossuary of James was, lacks patina altogether on all but one ossuary.

Oh, wait... I forgot... a lot of folks fell for the Ossuary of James hoax because it was only anti-Catholic. Defending Christ would require eating too much crow...


19 posted on 02/26/2007 5:36:12 AM PST by dangus
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To: TonyRo76

>> Would this be the same ossuary alleged to contain the remains of Jesus' brother James? Or did they discover a new one? <<

Sorta. The authors claim this is a tomb containing several ossuaries, and they suppose that the ossuary of James was removed from it.


20 posted on 02/26/2007 5:37:28 AM PST by dangus
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To: dangus

**anti-Catholic**

Now, now, let's keep this ecumenical. (can't believe I said that, can you;-)) We have a common foe here.


21 posted on 02/26/2007 5:38:34 AM PST by Gamecock (Ecclesia reformata, semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei)
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To: Gamecock
My partner Frank Turk put up numerous excellent links.

Dan
Biblical Christianity BLOG
Pyromaniacs

22 posted on 02/26/2007 5:39:36 AM PST by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: Gamecock

Take the situation as an opportunity to communicate the Gospel.

There is no need to debate, because even if one were to win a debate empirically or rationally, such would be good for nothingness without faith in Christ.

The type of tomb was described in the Gospels, and the guarding of he tomb was documented in the Gospels. The penalty for a Roman soldier who allowed the object he was guarding to be taken illegitimately was death. Multiple guards fell asleep and a stone larger than could be moved by one man was moved to unseal the tomb. They were very cognizant of what had happened, to the point of going to the chief priests who then conspired to fabricate lies in an agreement where the priests would then defend them so they wouldn't be executed. (Matthew 28:11-15) Note, that the guards would fully admit to their seniors that they had fallen asleep at their posts,..a crime punishable by death, then they alleged Christ's followers had come and taken away the body, when all of his followers believed he was still in the grave and were in remorse, not realizing the meanings of the Prophecies (John 20:9). In addition, the priests were conspiring in a worldly fashion to retain worldly control of their religion(Matt 28:11-15). This is an important point, because today, just as then, those who will believe in Him through faith see clearly the truth, while those who deny Him, will prefer to follow worldly thinking.

Those who will be saved, will be saved purely by Him, by His grace, while those who reject Him, and seek to reject faith, are given that freedom in their volition.

Not only was the body gone from the tomb (Luke 24:1-5, Mark 16:1-7,John 20:1-10), Jesus Christ was seen for some 40 days along with many others who had been ressurrected. He was touchable and ate meat while in His resurrected body. His wounds were unique and touched by his disciples.(John 20:24-31)

He was the first fruits. He ascended to heaven in his resurrection body.

Prior to His crucifixion, Peter was prophecied to deny him three times before the cock crowed. Peter insisted this would never happen, as one of his closest disciples. While our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus was taken to the high priest, asked if He was indeed the Christ, Son of the Blessed, and our Lord responded "I am", and the high priest rent his clothes, shortly thereafter, Peter denied or Lord three times to avoid being associated with Him in public. (Mark 14:40-72)

Even his disciples didn't believe he had risen when first told of it. Instead they made first hand eyewitness testimony that He had indeed left the tomb.(Luke 24:10-12, Mark 16:6-11)

Later He was seen by them and they even touched His resurrected body. (Luke 24:34-53,


23 posted on 02/26/2007 5:41:20 AM PST by Cvengr
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To: Gamecock

Pinging for later


24 posted on 02/26/2007 5:48:39 AM PST by Texas Patriot (Remember.... The Alamo, never forget HOORAHH!!!!!)
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To: Gamecock

Had to do a double take. I thought the title said "Jesus Family Talking Tomb." I was picturing some lame Easter display complete with loudspeaker.


25 posted on 02/26/2007 6:09:56 AM PST by Larry Lucido (Duncan Hunter 2008)
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To: Larry Lucido

I think I many have seen one of those one time, but then again I'm from SC!


26 posted on 02/26/2007 6:18:57 AM PST by Gamecock (Ecclesia reformata, semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei)
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To: Gamecock
How do we know that some misguided pilgrim didn't set this up at some point in the distant past?

That was my first thought.

27 posted on 02/26/2007 6:26:46 AM PST by Tallguy
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To: MadIvan

Wasn't the True Cross lost to Saladin at the Battle of the Horns of Hattin? Thought I read that somewhere...


28 posted on 02/26/2007 6:28:55 AM PST by Tallguy
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To: Cvengr; TonyRo76
The type of tomb was described in the Gospels, and the guarding of he tomb was documented in the Gospels. The penalty for a Roman soldier who allowed the object he was guarding to be taken illegitimately was death

Particularly since "sealing" the tomb literally meant placing a wax seal bearing the emblem of the Roman Empire on the entrance to the tomb. Moving stone = breaking seal = high treason. Resurrection is a capital offense. No wonder the guards were eager to spread the falsehood that the disciples had stolen the body.

29 posted on 02/26/2007 6:29:16 AM PST by lightman (The Office of the Keys should be exercised as some ministry needs to be exorcised)
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To: Gamecock; jmax; Islander7; 2ndDivisionVet; somniferum; flying Elvis; MagnoliaMS; MississippiMan; ...

Baptist ping


30 posted on 02/26/2007 6:46:56 AM PST by WKB (Duncan "yes", Newt "yes", Mitt "yes", Rino Rudy "no way")
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Comment #31 Removed by Moderator

To: Gamecock

Isn't it amazing that these "scientific" "discoveries" are made and announced a few weeks before Easter every year?

If we tricked them one year and held Easter in August, would we get these "discoveries" in July?


32 posted on 02/26/2007 7:15:14 AM PST by Andrew Byler
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To: MadIvan

How about the nails that held Christ to the Cross that are kept in Rome?


33 posted on 02/26/2007 7:17:44 AM PST by Andrew Byler
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To: Tallguy

"Wasn't the True Cross lost to Saladin at the Battle of the Horns of Hattin? Thought I read that somewhere.."

I believe it was a cross with a "piece" of the original attached to it.


34 posted on 02/26/2007 7:19:14 AM PST by Bringbackthedraft
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To: Andrew Byler
That's a new one on me. Still, it's doubtful they can verify any DNA on these relics as being authentic.

Regards, Ivan

35 posted on 02/26/2007 7:19:31 AM PST by MadIvan (I aim to misbehave.)
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To: Tallguy

The true cross was lost to the Persians, then regained by Emperor Heraclius. It was never lost to Saladin. And parts of it had already been spread about the world by the time of Heraclius.

As far as anyone knows, the various pieces of wood around the world purporting to be bits of the true cross are bits of the true cross.


36 posted on 02/26/2007 7:26:44 AM PST by Andrew Byler
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To: Andrew Byler; Gamecock

Isn't it amazing that these "scientific" "discoveries" are made and announced a few weeks before Easter every year?

If we tricked them one year and held Easter in August, would we get these "discoveries" in July?

32 posted on 02/26/2007 8:15:14 AM MST by Andrew Byler

Well; Passover is April 3rd this year;

and the day following the Shabbat
following Passover is the Ordained
Feast of First Fruits is April 8th

b'shem Yah'shua
37 posted on 02/26/2007 7:41:52 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHVH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya’aqob.”Isaiah 60:16)
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To: Gamecock
Where to begin...

Well, looking at the Discovery Channel website's treatment of this "finding," it is clear that we're not dealing with a scholarly understanding of the issues. Just for starters, they say that the Herodian Period was from "1 B.C. to 1 A.D." Uh, guys, that's only a maximum of two years! And then there's this bombshell of a revelation, delivered to breathless listeners by one Jodi Magness, associate department chair of religious studies at the University of North Carolina: "Jesus likely lived during the first century A.D." Do tell! And this pronouncement is, according to the Discovery Channel's take on Ms. Magness' rare powers of discernment, "based on the New Testament writings." No way!!!???

Clearly, we're dealing with purveyors of junk science here who will swallow just about anything their vapid minds think will enhance their ratings. So, enough about the cable channel airing this tripe, what about the tripe itself?

How can DNA extracted from the remains in the ossifies "prove" that the remains are Jesus of Nazareth and His family? To prove such a thing, one needs to have a sample from a known, undisputed member of His family. Do we know of any such person living today? No. Do we know of any such person who died after Jesus' time on earth? No. Therefore, it is simply ridiculous to make the claim that the DNA samples can be identified with Jesus Christ and His kin, real or putative. The best the DNA can do is prove that these people were of Palestinian Jewish lineage. But we already *know* that from the site of the burial (Jerusalem) and the obviously Jewish names found inscribed - Jesus (Yeshua), Mary (Miriam), Matia (Matthew), Yousef (Joseph), and Judah. These were, moreover, very common names for the place and time, sort of like finding a family plot in the US with names like John, William, Mary, Joseph and Robert. So what?

But the explanation given for the sixth name is a real mind bender. The claim is made that the sixth ossuary contains the remains of Mary Magdalene (of course!). Does the ossuary have that name inscribed on it? No. It says "Mariamene e Mara" in Greek (btw: all of the others are written in Aramaic or Hebrew), which is translated as "Mary known as the master." The Discovery Channel quotes Francois Bovon, professor of the history of religion at Harvard as saying "Mariamene, or Mariamne, probably was the actual name given to Mary Magdalene." Citations, please, professor! His only "evidence" is that the apocryphal text "Acts of Philip" mentions the Apostle Philip's alleged sister Mariamne, so, naturally, he presumes this *must* be Mary Magdalene! Honestly, that appears to be the only connection!

So we have somebody named Yeshua presumed to be the spouse of someone named Mariamne who seem to have had a son named Judah. GOTTA be *that* Jesus, right? Well, who are the Matthew and Mary mentioned? Well, they must be more kids of Jesus and Magdalene, or maybe their brother and sister, or...something. Who knows? But since we have a Yeshua and someone else who is implausibly contorted into Mary Magdalene, EVERYTHING else "logically" falls into place.

Well, what about this Joseph they found? Hmmm. There's good Scriptural evidence that Joseph died before Jesus' ministry, since he never apes in His public life and Mary was entrusted to the Apostle John at the cross. That would mean that he was almost certainly buried in Nazareth, and, as a carpenter (not exactly a lucrative occupation at the time) he was probably buried very simply in Nazareth. He most certainly would not have been disinterest and relocated to Journalism due to an aversion to such relocation practices. He definitely wouldn't have been relocated by Christians who, between the crucifixion and the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70, would never have had the nerve to flout the ever-watchful Jewish authorities in reburying the father of that hated "cult leader" Jesus of Nazareth! In a costly tomb built to contain costly ossuaries, presumably with much ceremony for passersby to notice! With Jesus *Himself* conveniently buried there for the authorities to present dead to the world!

Well, there's more, but I'm at work and I've gotta get going. James Cameron is "under the ban" from here on in my household!
38 posted on 02/26/2007 7:46:41 AM PST by magisterium
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To: magisterium

Paragraph 3. "ossifies" = "ossuaries" Oops!


39 posted on 02/26/2007 7:49:29 AM PST by magisterium
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To: Gamecock

Cameron is doing what people from Hollywood are supposed to do (in their own warped way of thinking). He has seen Moore win an Oscar for a fictitious documentary. He has seen Gore win an Oscar for a fictitious documentary. Cameron is betting he will get huge publicity and probably an Oscar from Hollywood for this fictitious documentary.


40 posted on 02/26/2007 7:50:30 AM PST by ZGuy
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To: Andrew Byler; Bringbackthedraft

Thanks. I was pretty sure that the Crusaders were using a "True Cross" as their battle standard. Not being 'up' on religious iconography I didn't know if it was supposed to be intact, incorporate a piece of the (true) True Cross, or was 1 of those purporting to be THE True Cross.

You've sparked an interest. I'll read-up on the subject.


41 posted on 02/26/2007 7:52:49 AM PST by Tallguy
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To: magisterium

From http://www.breitbart.com/news/2007/02/26/D8NHFDRG3.html


Stephen Pfann, a biblical scholar at the University of the Holy Land in Jerusalem who was interviewed in the documentary, said the film's hypothesis holds little weight.

/cut/

Pfann is even unsure that the name "Jesus" on the caskets was read correctly. He thinks it's more likely the name "Hanun."

Hanun? Who the heck is Hanun?


42 posted on 02/26/2007 7:54:40 AM PST by Gamecock (Ecclesia reformata, semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei)
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To: magisterium
I saw the Cameron/Jacobovic program concerning the Exodus. It was very intriguing, but not being Jewish I don't know that it impacted the Jewish faith one way or the other. Even so, they seemed to take certain ill-advised intellectual leaps based on some pretty thin evidence.

I can think of a lot of possible explanations for this tomb. For instance it could be a 2nd or 3rd century re-creation by a local bishop, long forgotten (though it is interesting how little is forgotten in that part of the world).

43 posted on 02/26/2007 8:07:56 AM PST by Tallguy
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To: Gamecock
2. We know that there was incredible persecution of the early Christians. Would they risk such persecution if they knew Christ really didn't exist?

3. We also know that the Romans and Jews would have done anything to suppress Christianity. Is it likely that they would have built up a ossuary and put any bones in there in the hopes that they could refute Jesus's claims?

Very Nicely said on point #2.

On Point #3 the argument can be augmented that the cruxifixation is an historical fact. But throw that aside, lets say that Jesus wasn't crucified. Let say that after he was brutally beaten by the Romans, he went away quietly never to claim to be the Messiah again. As the apostles started spreading the news of the resurrection why wouldn't the Jewish authorities pull Jesus out of exile and display him on the steps of the temple to prove the apostles to be liars?

44 posted on 02/26/2007 8:38:09 AM PST by 11th Commandment
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To: Gamecock

I know... I should've put a little emoticon to make it more evident I was tweaking, not attacking; I can't blame you for your response. Still... I had meant to point the harm of jumping on archaeological discoveries when they fit one's own agenda; I guess I just blew it by coming across divisive, whereas I could have (and should have) been ecumenical.


45 posted on 02/26/2007 8:42:36 AM PST by dangus
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To: Gamecock

>> Hanun? Who the heck is Hanun? <<

I don't know, but he makes good Chinese food.


46 posted on 02/26/2007 8:43:30 AM PST by dangus
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To: redgolum

I don't know about him but the guy who made the film has a book that just came out. More publicity for him, I guess.


47 posted on 02/26/2007 8:53:24 AM PST by MamaB
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To: Gamecock; All

Thanks.

Haven't felt it was worth the bother.

But I believe that the globalist puppet masters and ET's have a much more troublesome hoax afoot. I believe that sooner or later they will trot out what they purport to be holographic video of that era . . . engineered, of course, to diminish or call into question or shred Christ's deity.

I believe that we HAVE TO KNOW HIM and know His voice as He declared His sheep would.

A theory or theology or philosophy ABOUT Him will not do. We must KNOW HIM and have an intimate RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM. . . . such that no hoax and no manipulation of "reality" or images or history or anything else--including whatever the Biblical GREAT DECEPTION is . . . that NOTHING can rock our faith in Him.


48 posted on 02/26/2007 9:05:12 AM PST by Quix (GOD ALONE IS WORTHY; GOD ALONE PAID THE PRICE; GOD ALONE IS ABLE)
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To: Quix

**that NOTHING can rock our faith in Him.**

Indeed.

But the point of this thread isn't to strengthen us, but to arm us to nurture the tender reeds and to fight off the wolves.


49 posted on 02/26/2007 9:07:53 AM PST by Gamecock (Ecclesia reformata, semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei)
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To: ZGuy

I could rationalize the Titanic series of explorations as merely being research and sensationalism oriented. With this later promotion by Cameron, I now begin to wonder if Cameron doesn't have a screw loose with a penchant for necronism.

Is there any tomb, crypt, coffin, burial ground too sancrocanct so as to dissuade his fascination with excavating the dead?


50 posted on 02/26/2007 9:21:09 AM PST by Cvengr
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