Posted on 03/08/2007 5:07:35 AM PST by Blogger
I can't disagree with you about any of this, except ;-0, coming out of the Tribulation won't there be Gentiles that also become believer's, not just Jews?
I have consistently stated that ONLY believers are the TRUE Israel. What you are saying is that God bless the remnant (Israel) but only the believing Israel aren't going to be slaughtered in the great battle. I don't have a problem with this interpretation but it seems to me we are saying the same thing. I would just say that the 2/3 who perish are NOT the true Israel. We are not grafted into this body.
I'll tell you where I have the problem. You are mixing two distinct views together moving back an forth between the two. One view COULD be right. One view is definitely wrong.
Premillenianism was a view dating back to the time of Polycarp. Premillenianism says that God will raise the nation of Israel back up for the final battle. While this view was never held in high esteem in the church for many centuries, it was (and is) a legitimate view of scripture. There are many Calvinists, rock hard solid Calvinists, that believe Premillenianism to be correct. Unlike other things, I can't determine whether premillenianism is the right view. Some of the scriptures you're using here to support dispensationalism really are premillenianism verses. You throw out verses like Zech but this has nothing to do with dispensationalism; it relates to premillenianism.
Dispensationalism is a belief that God, throughout time, has favored the nation of Israel based upon promises of made to Abraham. Thus the church and Israel run in dual parallel, one heavenly and one earthly. This was never the view of the church for 1900 years. It was manufactured by Darby, Scofield, and others who misread their Bibles. Furthermore, the scriptures are consistently against this view.
Israel, just about from day one rebelled against the Lord. Scripture shows that God didn't just say to Israel, "Well, that's OK. Your a wonderful nation." God sent Israel into exile, destroying the nation many times over. In fact, if you wish to talk about promises, God promised Israel in Deuteronomy that He would destroy them just as He destroyed those Promise Land nations, if they rebelled against Him.
The theological implications are that when a nation rebels against God's laws, God will exact judgment on that nation. Was the rise of Rome, Spain, Nazi Germany, America God showing His blessings? How about China or some of the ultra rich Arab nations in the Middle East? What precisely do you consider to be "blessings" from God?
God does not simply look the other way to those who do not follow His commands. The greatest rejection is rejection of His Son. The results may take hundreds of years but it will come about.
What you are saying is 1) since God is bring back the nation of Israel (premillenianism), therefore 2) God must love Israel (dispensationalism). While point 1 has happened and MAY support premillenianism, point 2 is definantly not correct. Scripturally God never shows favor to any nation that rebels against Him. He promises destruction not support. While He may, according to His sovereignty, raise up a nation to exact judgment on another, He will exact judgment on rebellious nation. But just because God has brought back Israel does not mean that He has a special love for her.
I can't argue with premillenianism. I don't know. I can certainly argue against dispensationalism. It is wrong. The problem in this discussion is that you are mixing the two views. You will pull out tough premillenian verses and say, "See, God is blessing Israel." In actuality God is only raising up Israel. These could be fulfillment of premillenianism; but it is certainly not because God favors Israel. Israel continues to this day to reject the most Holy God and our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. If God destroyed Israel and led them into captivity 2,000 years ago over this very issue, do you think God changed His mind?
No, that is not the point. The point is that God loves Israel, has always loved Israel, and continues to take care of Israel. What we disagree on is, "What (or who) is Israel?" I am saying that based upon the scriptural teachings of Romans 9-11, Galatians and church history, the church has always viewed Israel as being those who are justified by faith. This is the new covenant.
While you may wish to claim the early church was very "anti-Christian" in their views, I personally wouldn't go there. You will have a difficult time with just about every single doctrine if you want to make that case, since these are the people who laid forth the foundations of the church. And we should remember that Paul is the one who started all this so I doubt if we would want to say he was "anti-Christian". In fact, in researching dispensationalism you will find many Messianic groups that will claim that the existing church is corrupted and the intent was never to give up Jewish practices; Gentile practices are the result of bias Gentile Christian of the early church. Do you see where this leads?
Darby and Scofield mistake was to read too much into the formulation and purpose of Israel. The purpose was to fulfill the mission of Christ. Our Lord Jesus told everyone to read what Moses and the prophets wrote because the wrote of Him. Yes, God loved us while we are sinners but God is in the business of changing people, not overlooking sins. He does not forgive people sins who are not covered by the blood of Christ. God is the one who instills us with grace and faith and sets our feet on higher ground. Dispensationalism ignores all of this and says that God loves Israel more than He loves Australia.
Polycarp believed that someday the nation of Israel would come back. He didn't believe that God loved Israel in a special way but simply that this was God's will. And I don't think this in any way is a anti-Semetic bias.
Christians are not called to be worshipers of geographic boundaries. We are called to discern Christ and the "bonds of the gospel" (Philemon 1:13).
The children of God are born by the Spirit; the same for Abraham, the same for you and me.
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word." -- John 8:30-43"As he spake these words, many believed on him.
So here we have Christ Himself drawing a distinction between those who call themselves the children of Abraham and the true children of Abraham, the elect of God who have been in Christ since before the foundation of the world.
Amen.
It may be good politics, but it is vapid theology.
Some good verses I was reading today:
Deut 9:4-6 “Do not say in your heart, after the Lord your God has thrust them out before you, ‘It is because of my righteousness that the Lord has brought me in to possess this land,’ whereas it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the Lord is driving them out before you. Not because of your righteousness or the uprightness of your heart are you going in to possess their land, but because of the wickedness of these nations the Lord your God is driving them out from before you, and that he may confirm the word that the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob. “Know, therefore, that the Lord your God is not giving you this good land to possess because of your righteousness, for you are a stubborn people.
In the end if you do not have faith in Jesus your name will not be in the Book of Life and you will be cast into the lake of fire. The Jews who are not lost will have come to that saving Faith and become Christians either before the Tribulation, or during it. In dispensationalism they come to that saving Faith don't they?
The remnant do, yes. The rest are lost.
Good to see you back on Dr. E.
Who the land belongs to is a matter of the promise of God, so it does matter. He chose to give them a land.
This does not imply that they deserve it or we deserve a thing we do. But what God chooses to do, I would not say "dose not matter one bit."
The remnant who have faith in Christ will be saved is my understanding and is what Blogger is stating. That is one of my point of contentions.
Even if we were to assume premillinianism was correct, is the rising up of Israel for creation of future believing Jews or is God blessing Jewish people right now? I can understand it if someone were to say they believed the age of the Gentile is coming to a close, and God is about to raise up a believing nation that will be based upon Jews who place their faith in Christ. But that isn't what the dispensationalists are saying. They are saying there is a dual track, God blesses Christians with heaven while God blesses our Jewish friends on earth. Consequently the rise of Israel, right now, is evidence of God pouring out His blessings on them.
My quote from Deuteronomy was to illustrate the fact that God didn't want the Jews to mistake Him giving them the Promise Land was in any way connected with them. In fact, He states very plainly that He is having them enter to drive out the wickedness. Later we read that if they do the same as the inhabitants, God will do the same to the Israelites.
It is important to realize that the most conservative Jews were anti-Zionists, believing that Palestine was not to become a Jewish land until made so by the coming of the Messiah. (This viewpoint was dramatized in the recent and rewarding film, The Chosen. ) Much of the most severe criticism of the political Zionist movement has come from anti-Zionist Jews, the most noted being Alfred M. Lilienthal. ...During the nineteenth century, a peculiar doctrinal notion known as "dispensationalism" arose. Its leading lights were Darby and Scofield; its Bible was the Scofield Reference Bible; and in re-cent years its primary headquarters has been Dallas Theological Seminary. Technically, dispensationalism teaches that God has two peoples in the history of the world: Israel and the "Church." We presently live in the "Church Age ," and God’s people today are Christians, the Church. At the present time, the Jews are apostate enemies of God and of Christ, and are under God’s judgment until they repent.
Someday soon (it’s always soon!), Christ will return to earth invisibly and snatch away all the Church-Christians (this is called the "Rapture" of the saints). At that point, God will go back to dealing with Israel. There will be a seven-year period called "The Tribulation," and during that period, apostate Jewry will form an anti-God alliance with the Beast, but God will begin to convert the Jews, and in time the Beast will turn and begin to persecute these converted Jews. Just when things look hopeless, Christ will return and inaugurate the Millennium.
One other point to note: There are absolutely no signs that the Rapture of the Church is near. It will come "as a thief in the night."
Now, this entire scheme, though popular in recent years, has no roots in historic Christian interpretation of the Scriptures, and at present it is collapsing under the weight of criticism from Bible-believing scholars of a more historically orthodox persuasion. All the same, there are several things to note.
First, by teaching that there are no signs that precede the Rapture, dispensationalism clearly implies that the modern State of Israel has nothing to do with Bible prophecy. If Israel collapsed to-morrow, it would make no difference. The existence of the State of Israel, while it may encourage dispensationalists to believe that the Rapture is near, is of no theologically prophetic importance.
Second, dispensationalism teaches that Jews of today, and even into the Tribulation period, are apostate, and this certainly implies that they are under the wrath and judgment of God. Christians should minister to them, and try to convert them, and show them all kindness as fellow human beings; but Christians should understand that during the Church Age, the Jews are not the people of God. Rather, the Church is the people of God today.
Third, by teaching that Israel is "set aside" during the Church Age, dispensationalism clearly implies that the promises made to Israel are also "set aside" during that period. The land promise, and the promise "those who bless you, I will bless," have been set aside, until we re-enter "prophetic time." Thus, the Jews have no right to the land during the Church Age, and also there is no particular blessing for Gentiles who treat the Jews with especial favor.
Fourth, dispensational theologians are most strict on the point that the Church is a "new people ," composed as one body in Christ of both Jew and Gentile. During the Church Age, the distinction between these two is not to be felt in the Church. Thus, dispensational theology is, by implication, opposed to the kind of stand-point articulated in many "Messianic Jewish" groups.
What I am setting forth is standard, consistent dispensationalism. As far as I am concerned, dispensationalism is sorely wrong in its prophetic view, but it is at least orthodox in its view of salvation and blessing. Blessing comes to the Jews when they repent and accept Christ; until then, they are under God’s curse. How can it be otherwise? All blessings are in Christ. This is the teaching of orthodox Christianity, and Darby and the early dispensationalists were orthodox Christians on this point, as far as I can tell. ...
Christian Zionism is blasphemy. It is a heresy. Christians have no theological stake whatsoever in the modern State of Israel. It is an anti-God, anti-Christ nation. Until it repents and says "blessed is He Who comes in the Name of the Lord," it will continue to be under the wrath of God. The modern State of Israel permits the persecution of Christians and Christian missionaries. We must pray that God will change the hearts of Jews, as of all other pagans, to receive Christ. But to support the enemies of the Gospel is not the mark of a Gospel minister, but of an anti-Christ.
Jesus warned the Jews that the kingdom, including the land, would be taken from them if they did not accept Him as their Messiah (Matt. 21:43). Of course today all God's true people, i.e., those who profess faith in Jesus Christ alone, are counted as children of Abraham (Gal. 3:16,29) and enjoy the blessing of the "land" (Matt. 5:5; Rom. 4:13; Heb. 11:9,10,16), and are the "holy nation" and "royal priesthood" of God (1 Peter 2:9,10), the true "Israel of God" (Gal. 6:16).""The blessing of the land was always conditioned by obedience to the law of God.
This link is very good, written by a Reformed ex-Dispensationalist who knows of what he speaks...
""...As many of you are no doubt aware, I was raised a Dispensationalist. When I first became convinced that the teachings of Dispensationalism are not supported by an honest assessment of scriptures, I determined to change my thinking on the topic, and so be done with the issue summarily. Such were my intentions, but I found, much to my surprise, that the roots of Dispensationalism are so deep, and they affect so profoundly one's way of thinking about virtually every theological issue, that the task of rejecting one's own Dispensationally-flavored way of viewing the Bible is no simple task. It is a monumental struggle that requires years of deep, intense, Spirit-reliant searching of the scriptures. As I embarked on this long process, I slowly became aware of a vast array of manners in which a thorough grounding in the Dispensational ideal tends to influence one's beliefs and emphases. This in itself was shocking to me; but what came as the severest shock of all was the reflection that virtually every one of these Dispensationally-derived misunderstandings tended in some way towards the eclipse of Christ as the sum and substance of every redemptive promise and reality, the One for whom, to whom, and by whom are all things, the One who sums up all of reality, brings all things under his feet, and is in himself all the fullness of the Godhead. Let me be clear here: I have no doubt that many, if not all Dispensationalists would affirm in theory the Christo-centrism of all reality; nevertheless, the fact remains that in practice they deny the explicit Christ-centeredness of many times, persons, and realities in history - and not just minor, inconsequential persons and things, but those that stand out as epoch-defining and historically-pivotal..."
How can we read Hebrews and not be struck by the truth that the old has given way to the new; that the elder serves the younger; that the Bible is one continuous history of God's people, every one of whom was and is in Christ Jesus?
"In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." -- Hebrews 8:13
It has been made clear, therefore, that the view according to which recent happenings prove that the Lord is fulfilling ancient prophecies regarding the return and restoration of the Jews is an error. One more matter must be briefly stated before this chapter is finished: As was stated previously, the various predictions of restoration for Israel were fulfilled in the return from the Assyrian-Babylonian exile, inasfar as they were intended to be fulfilled in a literal sense. It remains true, of course, that the literal fulfilment of these and of similar prophecies of weal does not exhaust their meaning. Ultimately these predictions are fulfilled in Christ, and therefore also in all those, whether Jew or Gentile, who place their trust in him.
We will also be setting forth that the physical nation of Israel in the land of Palestine in the Near East today, is not God's chosen people or nation after the flesh, and neither will they ever again be dealt with as a nation in a so-called 1000 years of earthly prosperity with Christ sitting upon an earthly throne in Jerusalem. No, the Scriptures plainly teach that the nation of Israel was set aside at Calvary and that God's dealing with them now is the same as His dealings with the Gentiles: "For there is no respect of persons with God: there is no difference between Jew and Gentile for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" (Rom 2:1, 3:22-23). ...It was revealed unto the apostle Paul by the Holy Spirit that God's purpose from eternity was to have a chosen people upon this earth at all times until the Lord's return, and that this would be both Jews and Gentiles brought into one body, the church, of which Christ was the head: "Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself that in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth, even in him" (Eph 1:9-10). He continues to show that the middle wall of partition had been broken down between Jew and Gentile, the enmity between them abolished and that they had, by the grace of God through the atoning work of Christ, been made one in Him, and thereby make up the true Israel of God (2:14-15). He adds that God's purpose "that the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel" (3:5,6,10) the same as the Jews, thus making the true Israel of God those who had been made new creatures in Christ Jesus by the new birth and who were now spiritual Israel. ...
Every promise in the Old Testament where the future throne of David is mentioned (2Sam 7:16; Pss 89:3-4; Isa 9:6-7, 55:3; Jer 33:17), and every Scripture in the New Testament confirms Peter's statement of Christ ruling and reigning upon David's spiritual throne in heaven.
Amen.
I am going to ammend something I said earlier today. The remnant of Jews that will believe are saved during the Tribulation and likely at the beginning of the Millenium.
If a Jew becomes a believer today, and the rapture happens, he goes to Heaven with the rest of the Christians. If a Jew is saved during the Tribulation period or at the beginning of the Millenium when he looks upon Him whom they have pierced, then there isn't that same experience of being caught up for Jesus is right here on earth with him.
The full realization of God's promises towards Israel will not occur until the Millenium. At that time, they will inhabit all of Israel as it was originally promised - all the way to the Euphrates. So, there IS an earthly blessing that is exclusively Israel's - but this does not negate the fact that they are saved the same way as the Christian Gentiles are saved. An earthly inheritance is not promised the Gentiles (doesn't mean we won't be busy here ruling with Christ in some capacity during that time though) - but it is to Israel. The two tracks therefore are not in any way two tracks to salvation . They are two paths of history and what God will do in the lives of various people to accomplish His will towards His kingdom.
God chooses to make a people of Abraham's seed------>God's Promise----->Israel's Unfaithfulness and Punishment through worldwide exile----->Church Grafted in------>Church age wraps up & Israel begins to be regathered to her land----->Church raptured (including Jews who believed before rapture)----->Tribulation period (The Time of Jacob's Trouble)----->Remnant of Jews become righteous through the Redeemer of Zion---->Redeemer of Zion return and ends time of Jacob's trouble----->Redeemer sets up 1000 year earthly kingdom and Redeemed Israel realizes the fulfillment of God's promise to them many years past ---->Jewish and Gentile brothers and sisters in Christ enjoy the presence of the Redeemer forever.
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