Americans get an 'F' in religion

Religion News Blog ^ | 03/07/2007 | Cathy Lynn Grossman

[Sopater]

Treating any religious text as fact is ridiculous

Uhm, yeah... that's what I said... I said that teaching it as myth is no better.

[dan1123]

"Here is an article about how our local school district is doing Bible classes:"

So after Bible teachers got kicked out of schools, the community had to set up a separate classroom location and a bus for transportation to get around a court ruling that is probably unconstitutional under the free exercise clause to begin with.

[BritExPatInFla]

Do you honestly envision that the bible will be taught simply on it's literary merits or lack thereof? And what version should be used? This opens a whole can of worms, that is simply a thinly veiled attempt to get the bible in the front door of the school, and then expand it's use in the curriculim. The teaching of the bible is best left to parents and clergy, not secular schools.

[Between the Lines]

So after Bible teachers got kicked out of schools, the community had to set up a separate classroom location and a bus for transportation to get around a court ruling that is probably unconstitutional under the free exercise clause to begin with.

There was no court ruling, only a complaint to the school board stopped the classes. The classes continue today as they have for over 50 years, the only difference is they are no longer held on school property. The Bible classes were never funded by tax dollars even when they were held on in school facilities. And the practice is not unconstitutional.

The practice is called "release time." Parents grant permission for their children to be "released" during school for privately run courses. The concept was affirmed by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1952 as permissible, as long as classes are off campus, no public funding goes into the program and participation is voluntary.

Release time is used by nearly every school district in South Carolina. It is used for a wide range of subjects ranging from religion like Bible, Torah and Koran classes to academics like advanced classes to athletics like Tai Kwon Do ,karate and gymnastics classes.

[Stone Mountain]

I said that teaching it as myth is no better.

I think that for a lot of stories, you have to make the choice. Was there a flood a few thousand years ago that killed off almost everyone? Did Moses actually part the Red Sea or see a burning bush that didn't extinguish itself? Sorry, I think most people view those as myth. Are they part of a larger structure that may impart larger lessons? Possibly, and that should be explored. But again, the bible shouldn't be used as a textbook - it's a book of old stories that many people consider to be relevent to themselves today. If you are going to teach the bible as literature, one of things you do is to look at myths from other religions and cultures and see how they compare to myths in Christianity. For instance, most cultures have a "great flood that destroyed the world" myth that are similar to eachother. Is that proof that there was a flood that destroyed the world? No - most early civilizations lived near water, and pretty much any large body of water will have a large flood at some point. One has to acknowledge that there is no reason to believe that the Christian flood story is any less mythical as any other religious flood story, if one wants to be even-handed in teaching a subject like this. So, yes, I do believe that treating biblical stories as myth is better than teaching them as fact. This doesn't mean that the teacher has to say that God is a myth, or that Christianity is wrong. But he should treat the text like he would any other non-Christian religious text in terms of truth value.

[Sopater]

Sorry, I think most people view those as myth.

[snip]

This doesn't mean that the teacher has to say that God is a myth, or that Christianity is wrong.

Only that the God of the Bible is a myth since the things that it says that He did is a myth. Right?

One has to acknowledge that there is no reason to believe that the Christian flood story is any less mythical as any other religious flood story, if one wants to be even-handed in teaching a subject like this.

There are many reasons to believe that the Christian flood story is less mythical than any other religious flood story. The Bible is full of prophecy that testifies to it's own truth. To call the stories of the Bible a "myth" is to call the author of those stories either "misinformed" or a "liar". No other religion has a documented record that comes remotely close to that of the Bible.

[Stone Mountain]

Only that the God of the Bible is a myth since the things that it says that He did is a myth. Right?

I'm not sure I understand the distinction. God can certainly be responsible for biblical myths that teach us something, right?

There are many reasons to believe that the Christian flood story is less mythical than any other religious flood story.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. There are numerous scientific problems that don't get resolved if you believe the entire earth was flooded with water. If you are saying that science doesn't matter because it was a miracle, then we're back to the Christian flood story being basically like any other religious flood story. If you believe that everything in the bible is literally true, and that there are no myths in there, that's another thing we would have to agree to disagree on. I don't believe that, nor do I believe such should be taught in public schools.

[Sopater]

I'll agree to disagree, however I don't think that "faith" or "ideology" should be taught by public school teachers, no matter what side of the fence that you're on, no matter how many people believe the same way. Granted, this leaves the door open for children to be indoctrinated from other sources without counter arguments from school teachers, but it also leaves the door open for parents and churches to instill a moral foundation in their children without the public school system (gov't) working to dismantle it.

BTW, I am not saying that science doesn't matter. I am a firm believer in physical science and believe that all of the scientific evidence supports the truth in regards to origins of life and the universe. However, I don't support pseudo-science being used to advance an ideological agenda and then calling it science. The idea that somehow science and religion are at odds is absurd. There are ideologies that are at odds, but one is falsely called science in today's culture.

[Stone Mountain]

The idea that somehow science and religion are at odds is absurd.

This is true. However, the idea that science is at odds with a literal reading of the bible is clearly not absurd.

[Harmless Teddy Bear]

“the fixation on literacy and numeracy — math and reading,” says Bob Schaeffer of the National Center for Fair & Open Testing, a group critical of the standards-based education movement.

"We would rather see these kids playing with play-dough while listening to a storyteller then actually learning skills that will allow them to continue to learn." He continued. "After all if they can actually read and do math then how are we going to turn them into mindless drones to do our labor?"

Idiot.

[Sopater]

the idea that science is at odds with a literal reading of the bible is clearly not absurd.

This too is true. However the idea that there is a significant number of fundamentalist Christians who actually believe that everything in the Bible is to be taken literally is just as absurd. ;-)

[Stone Mountain]

This too is true. However the idea that there is a significant number of fundamentalist Christians who actually believe that everything in the Bible is to be taken literally is just as absurd. ;-)

Actually, I do believe there are a fair amount of bible literalists out there - even on this site, for that matter. But I agree with you - most Christians don't believe in a literal reading of the events in the bible. Which is another reason why I don't think it's a big deal if the stories in the bible are taught as myth as opposed to calling them fact.

[Sopater]

most Christians don't believe in a literal reading of the events in the bible.

I'm not talking about the events of the Bible. The Bible clearly describes some events as literal fact, and some as allegory. I believe in a straight-forward reading of the Bible. I believe in the creation story, the global flood, the parting of the Red Sea, etc. However, people who say that I take everything that the Bile says literally are trying to say that I also think that the obvious allegories of the Bible are also facts. This is an attempt to smear and discredit me and other fundamentalist Christians by painting us as mindless idiots. The Bible is relatively clear on what is to be considered as fact and what is to be considered as allegory.

[TommyDale]

"Popular media denigrates Christians, Protestant and Catholic alike. And you blame Biblical illiteracy on a recent evangelism movement?"

Actually, Biblical illiteracy is what allowed the Purpose Driven Movement to begin with. Church leadership has no discernment for the false doctrine that they bring in to undermine solid Bible teaching.

[VictoryGal]

I scored a 96 out of 100, but then I went to a Catholic school and took a comparitive religions class.

In this crazy world, it is suicide not to teach our children our base beliefs as well as the core beliefs people hold in the world, political correctness be danged.

I don't trust our public schools to do this, but someone must. Let's start at home, at the very very least.

[Larry Lucido]

I scored a 96 out of 100

Okay, I looked all over the article for a test. Is there a hidden link? (Or did I already flunk the test? LOL)

[Zionist Conspirator]

People for the Separation of Church and State go after every public Christian expression (while leaving other religions alone for some reason).

Liberals divide the population of America into two groups: "guests" and "hosts." In American chr*stians are the "hosts" and non-chr*stians (no matter how fundamentalistic their beliefs) are "guests." Secularism then becomes a war, not on religion per se, but on the religion of the "hosts," since the free and even subsidized expression of the religions of the "guests" is interpreted as secularizing.

As a non-chr*stian myself I find this very embarrassing.

[Zionist Conspirator]

I think Bible as literature classes in schools should be supported by all Christians. I have found most people who are hostile to Christianity have worse than zero Bible knowledge. They have popular misconceptions of the Bible as their only Biblical knowledge.

Would captive students in the public schools be taught the blasphemous documentary hypothesis, or that the Bible is mere "literature" or "mythology?" I am adamantly opposed to any such thing.

Religious Truth is no less true than anay other kind. It is not speculative or subjective and it deserves to be taught as fact.

[VictoryGal]

Oops! You didn't miss the quiz-- I had gone to the original usatoday article before coming on to FR and seeing the post:

http://usatoday.com/news/religion/2007-03-07-teaching-religion-cover_N.htm

Look on the left for the questions. Take your points and multiply by 2...

[Larry Lucido]

Thanks!

(Back later to take it).