Posted on 03/09/2007 3:53:04 PM PST by Terriergal
There are a great many reasons why one might want to attend church - business, social, other. You could probably increase the size of your congregation, but is it the purpose of the church to design a service to meet these needs?
The Holy Spirit calls us, enlightens us and sanctifies us according to Martin Luther. In the books of Acts, God added to the church daily. This group will want to hear the full gospel preached, rather one that "tickles the ear."
Oddly, under our pastor's direction, we heard about the need to change our message and methods. But he couldn't find the time to baptise a young woman in our church; he couldn't find time to meet with the elderly or shutins; he couldn't find time to counsel a couple about to get married. He couldn't find the time to meet with the husband of one of our members who requested counselling at the mental health facility (this man ultimately ended up being shot by police after taking a hostage.)
We heard man-centered messages rather than God-centered message. We had sermons about baking Christmas cookies, and about not getting stressed out, but we didn't get much of a gospel message. He did, however, have concerns about our church's "curb appeal."
We're striving to be faithful, rather than emphasizing numbers. We love to invite people to join us in worship. We're seeing a number of people visit (since our pastor left) who indicate they are looking for a bible based, non seeker-driven church.
I'm afraid you're right.
"Oddly, under our pastor's direction, we heard about the need to change our message and methods. But he couldn't find the time to baptise a young woman in our church; he couldn't find time to meet with the elderly or shutins; he couldn't find time to counsel a couple about to get married. He couldn't find the time to meet with the husband of one of our members who requested counselling at the mental health facility (this man ultimately ended up being shot by police after taking a hostage.)"
It sounds like you had more problems with the pastor than just his "seeker sensitive" approach. He sounds like a bad apple from your description.
"We had sermons about baking Christmas cookies, and about not getting stressed out, but we didn't get much of a gospel message."
The message types that I have seen go from preaching the Bible directly with zero connection to any application, to preaching application with verses to back it up. I believe Rick Warren is pushing the latter. Are you saying that the pastor was preaching messages that did not touch on the Bible at all?
"We're seeing a number of people visit (since our pastor left) who indicate they are looking for a bible based, non seeker-driven church."
Just out of curiosity, are these younger or older people?
Written tongue in cheek but sadly true today.
CFR shill opines on worship. Disgusting.
Wonder what people did back in Biblical days. Before air conditioning. Before electricity.
Don't know about you, but I work in air conditioning and am used to it. There's no special virtue in sweating like a pig.
My problem with Warren is that he never seems to get to the Gospel. Fix up the church, make it look nice, make it comfortable for wiggly kids and old people with bad backs, light it up, but preach the gospel once the ceremony starts. Lose the funky, cutesy homilies about fireflies in the distance and preach the word. I agree that people preach the gospel in terrible circumstances, but Paul didn't ask to be thrown into prison. He ended up in prison and fulfilled his ministry.
If any thing I've said indicates churches should deliberately inflict suffering as part of worship, I apologize. I'm just not sure how anything I wrote could be interpreted that way.
I am saying that people in America today have a consumer mentality that extends to their place of worship. I am saying that the message is more important than the environment. I would also say that we should care for our church in a way that honors God.
The prophet Haggai had a lot to say about our taking care of our business and comfort at home before we take care of His house. He tells us that inflation, business down turns, unanswered prayers and "global earming" all can come as a result of our neglecting the things that belong to His glory.
Hag 1:7-11, "Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Consider your ways. Go up to the mountain, and bring wood, and build the house; and I will take pleasure in it, and I will be glorified, saith the LORD. Ye looked for much, and, lo, it came to little; and when ye brought it home, I did blow upon it. Why? saith the LORD of hosts. Because of mine house that is waste, and ye run every man unto his own house. Therefore the heaven over you is stayed from dew, and the earth is stayed from her fruit. And I called for a drought upon the land, and upon the mountains, and upon the corn, and upon the new wine, and upon the oil, and upon that which the ground bringeth forth, and upon men, and upon cattle, and upon all the labour of the hands"
Nobody said anything about "virtue". But American Christians are far too whiny.
They are primarily couples with older teens still at home - is that older or younger? I guess it depends on your perspective. From my perspective, middle aged.
Our pastor was enamored with Rick Warren and after bringing 40 days of purpose to our church, we saw a big change in his preaching and attitude toward EXISTING members of our church in favor of the SEEKERS out in the community. He is an excellent speaker and definitely brought in bible verses in his message, but they were used in a way to support a message about how God wants to make us happy.
I was part of a small group who went before the pastor and the diaconate to express questions and concerns about the direction we seemed to be heading. We were treated with hostility and anger by our pastor, and later invited to leave the church. But by that time, so many were in the process of leaving that it didn't look like our church would survive. Seekers already have a seat at the church with cupholders for their morning latte -- the one with stage settings, plastic pulpits, and the weekly dramas, video excerpts, professional singers, an orchestra and on one weekend, jugglers. They have 8,000 people attend over six services on a weekend. I guess they are successful, at least numerically speaking.
Our church is ministering to the woman who lost her husband to cop-assisted suicide, a young woman who is drug addicted with four children, another who needed help with her heating bills, three mentally challenged individuals, elderly members who are ill or dying. A team is leaving next week to work on a bible camp in the Ozard for kids who can't afford camp. We raising money for a church in Mexico to buy a truck to deliver food to those who can't afford it. We're struggling to be faithful to God's will for our church.
Ozard = Ozarks. Sorry.
Makes sense. I will reiterate that I don't care for Warren's preaching, but you've provided some good scriptural evidence that there's nothing wrong with cleaning up the church house.
I'm not enamored with his preaching either, but he has challenged us to attempt great things for God, expect great things from God, and do all for God's glory with excellence.
That which does not exist does not enter one's mind.
And yet mankind managed to survive.
Re Rick Warren's definition of worship..Roman Catholics and Mormons could and do all of Warren's list for worship and are no less lost, no more leading anyone into true worship...and I can't get the picture out of my mind of the underground and persecuted Christian Church in China meeting
secretly in freezing meat lockers to worship...having to wear several layers of clothing just to keep from freezing to death (I think I saw the photo in a Voice of the Martyrs magazine). Warren's article is a reproach, for the world is not even worthy of these saints.
As the rest of what I think of Saddleback and Warren's teachings, go to: http://www.abrahamic-faith.com/False-Teachers.html
Wow. So Rick Warren is the Antichrist huh? I guess you can't call him any worse than that.
Can we declare a Godwin's Law for religious discussion with the Antichrist instead of Nazis?
LibertyinChrist has you guys beat.
Terriergal; WKUHilltopper:
Rick Warren = heritic
LibertyinChrist:
Rick Warren = the Antichrist
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