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The Catholic Church Changed The Ten Commandments?
Fisheaters.com ^ | not given | Fisheaters

Posted on 03/11/2007 7:28:32 PM PDT by Salvation

The Catholic Church
Changed The Ten Commandments?

  

Real Audio Lessons on this Topic

Commandment 1
Commandments 2-3
Commandment 4, 6, & 9
Commandments 5, 7, 8, 10


Some Protestants accuse the Catholic Church of having dropped one of the 10 Commandments. "You're idolators! You worship statues! And because you do, your Church dropped the commandment against graven images!"

The truth, of course, is that the Catholic Church did not and could not change the Ten Commandments. Latin Catholics and Protestants simply list them differently. It is incredible that such a pernicious lie could be so easily spread and believed, especially since the truth could easily be determined by just looking into the matter. But the rumor lives.

Now, below are the ways in which Protestants and Roman Catholics enumerate the Commandments:

Most common Protestant listing:

Thou shalt have no other gods before me
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image
Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy
Honour thy father and thy mother
Thou shalt not kill
Thou shalt not commit adultery
Thou shalt not steal
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour
Thou shalt not covet

Latin Catholic listing:

Thou shalt not have other gods besides Me
Thou shalt not take the Name of the Lord thy God in vain
Remember to keep holy the Lord’s day
Honor thy father and thy mother
Thou shalt not murder
Thou shalt not commit adultery
Thou shalt not steal
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods

So what the heck? What did happen to the commandment about graven images in the Catholic listing? Did the Church just "drop" a commandment?

Um, no. The Old Testament was around long before the time of the Apostles, and the Decalogue, which is found in three different places in the Bible (Exodus 20 and Exodous 34 and Deuteronomy 5:6-21), has not been changed by the Catholic Church. Chapter and verse divisions are a medieval invention, however, and numbering systems of the Ten Words (Commandments), the manner in which they are grouped, and the "short-hand" used for them, vary among various religious groups. Exodus 20 is the version most often referred to when one speaks of the Ten Commandments, so it will be our reference point here. Here's how the relevant portion of Exodus 20 reads:

2

I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3

Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.

4

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

6

And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

7

Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

8

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9

Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10

But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

12

Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

13 Thou shalt not kill. 1
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15 Thou shalt not steal.
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

So we have 16 verses and Ten Commandments (this we know because of Exodus 34:28 and Deuteronomy 4:13 which speak of the "Ten Words" of God). How to group these verses and Commands? Here's how different groups have handled this:   

 Verses Grouped Together

Counted as Commandment #

Jewish

Latin Catholic, Lutheran

Eastern Catholic, Orthodox, Most Protestant

1

2 (commandment to believe)

3, 4, 5, 6

3

2

3, 4, 5, 6

7

4, 5, 6

3

7

8, 9, 10, 11

7

4

8, 9, 10, 11

12

8, 9, 10, 11

5

12

13

12

6

13

14

13

7

14

15

14

8

15

16

15

9

16

17a (commandment against lust)

16

10

17

17b (commandment against greed)

17

When the Commandments are listed, they are often listed in short-hand form, such that, for ex., verses 8, 9, 10 and 11 concerning the Sabbath become simply "Remember the Sabbath and to keep it holy." Because Latin Catholics group 3, 4, 5 and 6 together as all pertaining to the concept "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me," we are accused of having "dropped" the commandment against idols. That Eastern Catholics list the Commandments differently never enters the equation for people who think this way; they are simply against those they probably call the "Romish popers" and that's that (I hope it doesn't bother them that Jews would accuse them of totally forgetting the First Commandment, or that Latin Catholics could accuse some Protestants of skipping lightly over the commandments against lust. And why don't the Protestants who have a problem with our numbering system go after the Lutherans for the same thing, anyway?).

Bottom line:

  • chapter and verse numbering in the Bible came about in the Middle Ages
     

  • the Catholic Church (which includes Eastern Catholics, too) has two different numbering systems for the Commandments given, one agreeing with the most common Protestant enumeration;
     

  • the Latin Church's numbering is the most common in the Catholic Church and is the one referred to by Protestants who, ignoring Eastern Catholic Churches, accuse the Catholic Church of having dropped a Commandment;
     

  • no Commandment has been dropped, in any case, but the Latin Church's shorthand for the Commandments looks different than the typical Protestant version because of how the Commandments are grouped;
     

  • everyone knows how to find Exodus 20 in the Bible, anyway -- even us stoopid Latin Catholics; and
     

  • we don't care how they are grouped together; we only care that they are understood and obeyed -- not because we are under the Old Testament Moral and Ceremonial Law with its legalism and non-salvific ritual (we aren't!), but because we are to obey God as children of the New Covenant, whose moral law includes the Two Great Commandments (to love God and to love our neighbor) which surpass the Decalogue, and whose Sacraments surpass empty ritual, being media of grace.


Footnote:
1 The Septuagint, the Latin Vulgate (the official Scripture of the Church), and the original Douay-Reims phrase the Fifth Word as "Thou shalt not murder"; later Douay-Reims versions, such as the Challoner, and the King James Bible, etc., phrase it as "Thou shalt not kill." "Thou shalt not murder," however, is the original intent and the meaning of the earliest texts. Catholics, of course, have 2,000 years of Church teaching and the Magisterium to interpret Scripture, and the meaning of the Fifth Commandment is that one is not to take innocent life. It doesn't entail pacifism, ignoring the needs of self-defense and justice, worrying about squashing bugs, etc.


Further Reading

The Catechism of the Catholic Church: Section on the Ten Commandments



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Evangelical Christian; Mainline Protestant
KEYWORDS: catholiclist; tencommandments
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In line with the instructions/guidelines of the Religion Moderator, let this be a genuine discussion thread about the Ten Commandments.

Thank you.

1 posted on 03/11/2007 7:28:39 PM PDT by Salvation
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To: nickcarraway; sandyeggo; Lady In Blue; NYer; american colleen; ELS; Pyro7480; livius; ...
Catholic Discussion Ping!

Please notify me via FReepmail if you would like to be added to or taken off the Catholic Discussion Ping List.

2 posted on 03/11/2007 7:30:06 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation
Did Catholics rewrite the 10 Commandments? (Evangelical viewpoint

Did Catholics rewrite the 10 Commandments?

I got an email that said:

Why do Catholics have...the ten Commandments changed to suit their rules?

Before we begin, we should say that the Commandments are not numbered in the Bible. The Lord has not explicitly set out for us how they are to be numbered. If we were to number every "command" in those sections of the Bible we would have about 17 commandments or more. So different efforts have been made to number and group them over the centuries. Two of the major players in the early Church were Augustine and Origen. We Catholics consider these two guys Saints. Catholics and Lutherans generally prefer those set out by Augustine and the Eastern Churches and Protestants follow the Commandments set out by Origen.

Comparison of the Catholic and Protestant 10 Commandments

  Catholic/Lutheran
(As per Augustine, around 400 A.D.)
Protestant/Orthodox Churches
(As per Origen around 200 A.D.)
1 I am the Lord your God: you shall not have strange Gods before me. I am the Lord thy God which brought thee out of the land of Egypt. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.
2 You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in Vain. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.
3 Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
4 Honour your father and your mother. Remember the Sabbath Day.
5 You shall not kill. Honor thy father and mother.
6 You shall not commit adultry. Thou shalt not kill.
7 You shall not steal. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour. Thou shalt not steal.
9 You shall not covet your neighbour's wife. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
10 You shall not covet your Neighbour's goods. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house nor his wife nor anything that belongs to him.

Didn't the Catholic Church remove the 2nd commandment "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image"?

The great Protestant Evangelist Jerry Falwell actually disagrees with this complaint against the Catholic Church. The following statement is on Jerry Falwell's web site. http://www.falwell.com/?a=news&news=prstencom

As Dr. Falwell promised on the June 22, 1999 Rivera Live television program, here are the Ten Commandments from the King James Version of the Bible, used most widely by Protestants, and the Ten Commandments as found in the official Catechism of the Catholic Church, which uses Scripture quotations adapted from the Revised Standard Version and New Revised Standard Versions of the Bible...As you can see, the difference between the two versions is minimal.

This is the Catholic first Commandment.

1. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image.

Even Jerry Falwell acknowledged that Catholics did not remove the commandment "You shall not make for yourself a graven image." It is part of the first commandment "You shall have no other god's before me." (Section 2, Chapter 1, Part IV) We have not removed it. The Jewish people also place "you shall not make any graven image" with the commandment "thou shalt not have any strange gods before Me."

Here are two paragraphs from the Catholic Catechism which talk about the history of the 10 Commandments:

2065 Ever since St. Augustine, the Ten Commandments have occupied a predominant place in the catechesis of baptismal candidates and the faithful. In the fifteenth century, the custom arose of expressing the commandments of the Decalogue in rhymed formulae, easy to memorize and in positive form. They are still in use today. The catechisms of the Church have often expounded Christian morality by following the order of the Ten Commandments.

2066 The division and numbering of the Commandments have varied in the course of history. The present catechism follows the division of the Commandments established by St. Augustine, which has become traditional in the Catholic Church. It is also that of the Lutheran confessions. The Greek Fathers worked out a slightly different division, which is found in the Orthodox Churches and Reformed communities.

It is perfectly acceptable for a Catholic to follow the Origen numbering system or the Augustine system. Each numbering system has its strengths and weaknesses. For example, the Origen system (that most Protestants use, except the Lutherans) lumps coveting your neighbor's wife under the commandment of coveting his possessions. But the opening chapters of Genesis make it plain in the story of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden that a woman is not a man's "possession" like a horse or livestock. He is the bone of his bones and the flesh of his flesh. (Gen 2:23)

So although the Bible tells us that there are 10 Commandments, it does not tell us how they are numbered. Perhaps what falls where was not an essential thing. What is important is that we follow all of what is written in Exodus 20:2-17 and Deuteronomy 5:6-21, not just the one sentence statements that we have numbered.

When we look at Scripture, even Deuteronomy and Genesis have differences in emphasis on different commandments.

When I go into a hardware store, it is not important whether I find the sink faucets in the Kitchen section or the Bathroom section. What matters is that the hardware store has faucets. What matters for our salvation is that we read all of the Scripture. Both Catholics and Protestants should be reading the entire section under each of the headings of their Commandments, and if they do that they will both be reading the same thing. We must understand the full Gospel.

 

Lord Jesus, let Your prayer of unity for Christians
become a reality, in Your way
we have absolute confidence
that you can bring your people together
we give you absolute permission to move
Amen


3 posted on 03/11/2007 7:39:15 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: All
References from The Catechism of the Catholic Church

 
CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
SECOND EDITION

PART THREE
LIFE IN CHRIST

SECTION TWO
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS

Exodus 20 2-17

Deuteronomy 5:6-21

A Traditional Catechetical Formula

I am the LORD your God,
who brought you out
of the land of Egypt,
out of the house of bondage.

I am the LORD your God,
who brought you out
of the land of Egypt,
out of the house of bondage.
1. I am the LORD your God:
you shall not have
strange Gods before me.
You shall have no other gods before me.
You shall not make for yourself a graven image,
or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above,
or that is in the earth beneath,
or that is in the water under the earth;
you shall not bow down to them or serve them;
for I the LORD your God am a jealous God,
visiting the iniquity of the fathers
upon the children to the third and the fourth
generation of those who hate me,
but showing steadfast love to thousands of those
who love me and keep my commandments.

You shall have no other gods before me
. . .
You shall not take
the name of the LORD your God in vain;
for the LORD will not hold him guiltless
who takes his name in vain.

You shall not take
the name of the LORD your God in vain
. . .
2. You shall not take
the name of the LORD your God in vain.
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Six days you shall labor, and do all your work;
but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God;
in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son,
or your daughter, your manservant,
or your maidservant or your cattle,
or the sojourner who is within your gates;
for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth,
the sea, and all that is in them,
and rested the seventh day;
therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it.

Observe the sabbath day,
to keep it holy
. . .
3. Remember to keep holy the LORD'S Day.
Honor your father and your mother,
that your days may be long in the land
which the LORD your God gives you.

Honor your father and your mother
. . .
4. Honor your father and your mother.
You shall not kill.

You shall not kill. 5. You shall not kill.
You shall not commit adultery.

Neither shall you commit adultery. 6. You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal. Neither shall you steal.

7. You shall not steal.
You shall not bear false witness
against your neighbor.
Neither shall you bear false witness
against your neighbor.

8. You shall not bear false witness
against your neighbor.
You shall not covet your neighbor's house;
you shall not covet your neighbor's wife,
or his manservant, or his maidservant,
or his ox, or his ass,
or anything that is your neighbor's.

Neither shall you covet
your neighbor's wife . . .

You shall not desire . . .
anything that is your neighbor's.

9. You shall not covet
your neighbor's wife.

10. You shall not covet
your neighbor's goods.



4 posted on 03/11/2007 7:41:58 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation

Excellent post!

Perhaps the most important point is that versification of the Scriptures is purely a human invention, and a relatively recent one at that.

The table is a marvelous illustration of the late Lutheran World Federation President Rev. Dr. Franklin Clark Frey's observation that "the Lutheran Church is a bridge church; not really Catholic and not truly Protestant". On the numbering of the Decalogue we are constantly needing to explain ourselves to Calvanist dominated Protestantism.


5 posted on 03/11/2007 7:44:37 PM PDT by lightman (The Office of the Keys should be exercised as some ministry needs to be exorcised)
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To: Salvation

Can someone explain to me why some versions list it as "murder" and others list it as "kill"? There is an enormous difference in the meanings of both words...the "kill" version being at odds with much of the OT.


6 posted on 03/11/2007 7:45:33 PM PDT by M203M4 (Idealism: a religion where facts and logic hold no weight.)
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To: lightman; Salvation

I predict the topic is not going to stay limited to the Ten Commandments, unfortunately. :-P


7 posted on 03/11/2007 7:46:51 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: M203M4

Nevermind, I found the footnote.


8 posted on 03/11/2007 7:47:31 PM PDT by M203M4 (Idealism: a religion where facts and logic hold no weight.)
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To: lightman
http://www.bookofconcord.org/smallcatechism.html


The Ten Commandments


As the head of the family should teach them in a simple way to his household.

The First Commandment.

Thou shalt have no other gods.

What does this mean?--Answer.

We should fear, love, and trust in God above all things.

The Second Commandment.

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord, thy God, in vain.

What does this mean?--Answer.

We should fear and love God that we may not curse, swear, use witchcraft, lie, or deceive by His name, but call upon it in every trouble, pray, praise, and give thanks.

The Third Commandment.

Thou shalt sanctify the holy-day.

What does this mean?--Answer.

We should fear and love God that we may not despise preaching and His Word, but hold it sacred, and gladly hear and learn it.

The Fourth Commandment.

Thou shalt honor thy father and thy mother [that it may be well with thee and thou mayest live long upon the earth].

What does this mean?--Answer.

We should fear and love God that we may not despise nor anger our parents and masters, but give them honor, serve, obey, and hold them in love and esteem.

The Fifth Commandment.

Thou shalt not kill.

What does this mean?--Answer.

We should fear and love God that we may not hurt nor harm our neighbor in his body, but help and befriend him in every bodily need [in every need and danger of life and body].

The Sixth Commandment.

Thou shalt not commit adultery.

What does this mean?--Answer.

We should fear and love God that we may lead a chaste and decent life in words and deeds, and each love and honor his spouse.

The Seventh Commandment.

Thou shalt not steal.

What does this mean?--Answer.

We should fear and love God that we may not take our neighbor's money or property, nor get them by false ware or dealing, but help him to improve and protect his property and business [that his means are preserved and his condition is improved].

The Eighth Commandment.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

What does this mean?--Answer.

We should fear and love God that we may not deceitfully belie, betray, slander, or defame our neighbor, but defend him, [think and] speak well of him, and put the best construction on everything.

The Ninth Commandment.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house.

What does this mean?--Answer.

We should fear and love God that we may not craftily seek to get our neighbor's inheritance or house, and obtain it by a show of [justice and] right, etc., but help and be of service to him in keeping it.

The Tenth Commandment.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his man-servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his cattle, nor anything that is his.

What does this mean?--Answer.

We should fear and love God that we may not estrange, force, or entice away our neighbor's wife, servants, or cattle, but urge them to stay and [diligently] do their duty.

What Does God Say of All These Commandments?

Answer.

He says thus (Exod. 20, 5f ]: I the Lord, thy God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me, and showing mercy unto thousands of them that love Me and keep My commandments.

What does this mean?--Answer.

God threatens to punish all that transgress these commandments. Therefore we should dread His wrath and not act contrary to these commandments. But He promises grace and every blessing to all that keep these commandments. Therefore we should also love and trust in Him, and gladly do [zealously and diligently order our whole life] according to His commandments.

9 posted on 03/11/2007 7:49:51 PM PDT by lightman (The Office of the Keys should be exercised as some ministry needs to be exorcised)
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To: Salvation

I heard a really interesting mnemonic at a Presbyterian church about the Ten Commandments. (Believe it or not, this was adult Sunday School.)

1. Hold up one finger. This stands for the one God.
(Thou shalt have no other gods before me.)

2. Hold up two fingers like a pair of scissors, and start cutting, as in arts and crafts. (Thou shalt not make any graven image.)

3. I don't remember this one quite as well as the others -- but I think it was put up three fingers as if taking the scout's pledge. (Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.)

4. Put down four fingers and walk them across the table. Liken this exercise to a family going to church. (Thou shalt keep holy the Sabbath.)

5. Hold up five fingers and take an honor pledge.
(Thou shalt honor thy father and thy mother.)

6. Put one finger into the palm of the other hand. Let the other five fingers collapse into the first finger, as if dead. (Thou shalt not kill.)

7. Make a pair of scissors with two fingers of the right hand then snip at the wedding ring (possibly imaginary) on the left hand. (Thou shalt not commit adultery.)

8. Put out both hands but hold back your thumbs, as if they have been cut off in the Middle East for the crime of stealing. (Thou shalt not steal.)

9. Put one hand down and four fingers up of the other hand, as if being sworn in court. (Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.)

10. Put out both hands and clutch at everything in sight.
(Thou shalt not covet.)


10 posted on 03/11/2007 7:51:59 PM PDT by scrabblehack
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To: aberaussie; Aeronaut; AlternateViewpoint; Archie Bunker on steroids; Arrowhead1952; baldie; ...


Lutheran (Catechism) Ping!

Keep a Good Lent!

11 posted on 03/11/2007 7:54:15 PM PDT by lightman (The Office of the Keys should be exercised as some ministry needs to be exorcised)
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To: Salvation; Pyro7480

If you got to Confession, yes. The priests tell me those aren't sins.


12 posted on 03/11/2007 7:58:03 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: lightman

**On the numbering of the Decalogue we are constantly needing to explain ourselves to Calvanist dominated Protestantism**

This would cause some confusion for all.


13 posted on 03/11/2007 8:00:37 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: M203M4

Check the footnote on the Fisheaters -- original post.


14 posted on 03/11/2007 8:01:48 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: scrabblehack

That would be great to teach children. Except I would have to change the two fingers representation. As well as the wording on a couple others. But it is very cute.


15 posted on 03/11/2007 8:04:43 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: nickcarraway

**The priests tell me those aren't sins.**

Huh?


16 posted on 03/11/2007 8:06:01 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: lightman

Thanks for the ping!

Our Lenten devotions include a study of the history of Christianity, including its relationship with Judaism. I will have to point out that different "People of the Book" have slightly different variations on the Ten Commandments. However, it does appear that we actually do cover the same material but disagree about how to organize it.


17 posted on 03/11/2007 8:09:07 PM PDT by RebelBanker (May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.)
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To: nickcarraway
No sin here, I don't agree -- each Commandment can be tied into one of the Seven Deadly Sins
18 posted on 03/11/2007 8:10:01 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Pyro7480

Will it get to 20 before it gets off topic?


19 posted on 03/11/2007 8:11:20 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: lightman
'Top 10 Catholic parenting tips found in the 10 Commandments' - Top Home and Family story, 2006
20 posted on 03/11/2007 8:13:22 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: 2ndMostConservativeBrdMember; afraidfortherepublic; Alas; al_c; american colleen; annalex; ...


21 posted on 03/11/2007 8:13:23 PM PDT by Coleus (God gave us the right to life & self preservation & a right to defend ourselves, family & property)
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To: RebelBanker
However, it does appear that we actually do cover the same material but disagree about how to organize it.

Precisely...and Martin Luther, being an Augustinian was hardly inclined to change the organization of the Decalogue. Pryo, if this is post # 20 we have managed to stay on topic.

22 posted on 03/11/2007 8:15:01 PM PDT by lightman (The Office of the Keys should be exercised as some ministry needs to be exorcised)
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To: RebelBanker

**However, it does appear that we actually do cover the same material but disagree about how to organize it.**

And then how to say it! But the same ideas are all there!


23 posted on 03/11/2007 8:19:17 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: lightman; Pyro7480

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1799282/posts?page=22#22

Wow! LOL! <a little bit of sarc/


24 posted on 03/11/2007 8:21:24 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation
And then how to say it! But the same ideas are all there!

IMHO, everything loses something in translation. Unfortunately, very few people can read ancient languages (my Latin is awfully rusty) so we must rely on someone else to provide a translation, which opens things up for interpretation or misinterpretation. There is also a matter of style.

Personally, I find that older translations of the Bible have a certain majesty to them that "contemporary" versions lose, but I have trouble with some of the more archaic verbiage in those older ones.

25 posted on 03/11/2007 8:27:19 PM PDT by RebelBanker (May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.)
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To: RebelBanker

** I find that older translations of the Bible have a certain majesty to them that "contemporary" versions lose,**

Agree with you here. My son loves the Duoay Rheims because it is more like the KJV in language. I prefer one of the more modern ones.

RSV is a good choice. Jerusalem Bible isn't too bad.


26 posted on 03/11/2007 8:32:55 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Pyro7480; lightman

What surprised me when I did a search before posting this was that there were tons of stories about The Ten Commandments court cases both SCOTUS and the one down south, was it in Kentucky?

But there was no post that I could find about "The Ten Commandments!" I found that very strange!


27 posted on 03/11/2007 8:37:18 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation
THESE ARE THE HOLY TEN COMMANDS

Martin Luther, 1524

adapted for use with the WOODWORTH tune

These are the holy Ten Commands
Which came to us from God’s own hands
By Moses who obeyed his will
On top of Sinai’s great high hill.

“I am the Lord your God alone
Of gods besides you shall have none
You shall yourself trust all to me
And love me only whole-heart-ed-ly”

“You shall not speak like idle word
The name of God who is your Lord,
As right or good you shall not praise
Except what God commands and says.”

“You shall keep holy the seventh day
That rest you and your household may,
From your own work you must be free
, That God’s praise your only work may be.”

“Honor you shall, and shall obey,
Your father and mother ev’ry day;
To serve them ready be your hand
That you may long live in this good land.”

“In wrath-ful-ness you shall not kill,
Nor hate, nor take revenge for ill
But patience keep with gentle mood
And to e’en foe be kind and good.”

“The marriage bond you shall keep clean,
That even the heart no other mean’
Your life you shall keep pure and free,
Restrained and held in chas-ti-ty.

“Steal not your neighbors goods or gold,
Nor profit by his sweat and blood,
Open then wide your kindly hand
To all the poor folk of your land.”

You shall not lying stories bear,
“Nor ‘gainst your neighbor falsely swear;
His innocence you shall rescue
And hide his shame from other’s view.”

“Your neighbor’s wife or house to win
You shall not seek, nor aught within;
But wish that his such good may be
As you would want yourself to see.”

To us come these commands, that so
You, child of earth, your sins would know,
And make you also well perceive
How before God you now should live.

May Christ our Lord help us in this,
For He our Me-di-a-tor is;
Our own work is hopeless thing
God’s wrath and anger it will bring.

28 posted on 03/11/2007 8:49:58 PM PDT by lightman (The Office of the Keys should be exercised as some ministry needs to be exorcised)
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To: lightman

Amazing how much might be learned through a song. Too bad there isn't a simple one for children.


29 posted on 03/11/2007 9:00:22 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: scrabblehack

That's pretty neat. Thanks for sharing


30 posted on 03/11/2007 9:00:32 PM PDT by P.O.E.
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To: lightman

I was raised and confirmed Lutheran, and even spent a couple of years at a Lutheran College.

While on active duty, I finished my degree at a Baptist College. For some reason, they accepted my previous New Testament class, but not the Old Testament, so in order to graduate, I had to relearn the 10 commandments. I got my A, and my degree. The so-called Protestant numbering system makes more sense to me, but as was pointed out earlier, it's the content that matters.

Meanwhile, my kids were all confirmed in the Lutheran Church, and they all asked why we needed two covets.


31 posted on 03/11/2007 9:15:05 PM PDT by SmithL (si vis pacem, para bellum)
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To: Salvation
Good morning, Salvation.

Great thread!

Here's another site I found some time back with interesting comparisons:

http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/denominations/comparison_charts.htm

Sample:

http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/charts/catholic_protestant.htm

                 Catholic                       Protestant
Authority 	 Scripture and tradition 	Sola Scriptura - Scripture alone
Bible 	         Includes apocrypha             Excludes apocrypha
Purgatory 	 Affirmed 	                Denied
Prayer to saints Accepted                       Rejected

32 posted on 03/12/2007 5:45:50 AM PDT by Enosh (†)
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To: Salvation

Interesting. I didn't know that there were two different versions.


33 posted on 03/12/2007 7:31:10 AM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: SmithL
Meanwhile, my kids were all confirmed in the Lutheran Church, and they all asked why we needed two covets.

I'm no religious scholar, but from a practical point in this day and age the two covets seem more applicable. Modern media is built upon greed and lust. The sexy models advertising the sports cars are appealing to both covets, but greed for material things and lust for the flesh are separate things. I would venture to guess these two are the biggest downfall of mankind and deserve two separate commandments.

34 posted on 03/12/2007 8:43:48 AM PDT by Armando Guerra
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To: lightman

Well this stunes my beeber 'cause I was raised with the correct (Hebrew) 10 commandments including the "just say no to idols" commandment. Maybe all Lutherans aren't the same?


35 posted on 03/12/2007 10:19:54 AM PDT by BJClinton (Elect John Edwards, it's about time we had a female president.)
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To: Salvation

Thanks for posting, I'm surprised the "Catholics deleted no idols command so they could worship their statues and/or Saints" Jack Chic-esque notion hasn't generated a thread such as this on FR. It's good to have this "out there", so to speak, to refer to later.

For those who may be particularly dense, there are MORE than 10 commands in Exodus, so SOMETHING must be condensed to fit them into TEN Commandments.

The spirit of the "no graven images" command was to not WORSHIP anything above or equal to God. It doesn't mean to not make them PERIOD; indeed, later in Exodus itself, we see God commanding Moses to build an Ark with images of CHEREBUM on it.

We Catholics do not worship the images of Saints. Even when some of us bow/kneel to statues. We actually laugh at people who say by SIMPLY bowing/kneeling to a statue, that's WORSHIPING the statue, or even the Saint it depicts.

We laugh. We really do.


36 posted on 03/12/2007 11:27:53 AM PDT by FourtySeven (47)
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To: Salvation

A few thoughts on all of this "commandments" business.

The Jews think there are 613 Commandments, not 10. The "ten words" is a nice summary, but it isn't "the highest law", the Torah is, and that's all 613 commandments.

Traditional Jews also think that statuary is a graven image. Period. Not statues of Jesus or Mary. Statues. The statue of David is a graven image. Some variants of traditional Judaism have gone as far as the strict Muslims have who refuse to allow pictures of animals, etc., in their art. To a pure Jewish traditionalist, the lions outside of the New York Public Library are bad things: graven images. There were exceptions to this, sanctioned by God. The Seraphim on the Ark of the Covenant and stitched into the fabric of the temple, and Moses' bronze serpent - but these had special dispensation. If one is going to be a hard-core Old Testament literalist, you have to reject not just the statuary in the Catholic Church, but the statues in the Metropolitan Museum of Art and, indeed, ALL depictions of animals, plants, humans, etc. The "graven images" prescription is in no way limited to houses of worship. It literally means you cannot have paintings, photographs, statues or any other artifical depictions of living creatures AT ALL. Most Jews don't go that far, and I don't know ANY Christians who reject SECULAR art. But worrying about Catholic statues while having paintings or animal statues in your house is not being a literalist about the Bible. It's picking and choosing.

The most glaring case of "picking and choosing" indulged in by ALL Christians (except the 7th Day Adventists) is ignoring the Sabbath. The commandment says honor the SABBATH. It doesn't say honor the "Lord's day" - that's a Christian gloss. God established the Saturday Sabbath, and nowhere in the New Testament does Jesus ever END the Saturday Sabbath (the way he ends the kashrut food laws, calling all things pure). The Acts say that Christians met on the Lord's day of resurrection, which is well, but that does not constitute a divine authorization to break one of the Ten Commandments and STOP honoring the Sabbath Day and keeping it holy.

The Sabbath Day is Saturday, and has been for about four millennia. Christians and Jews say God established it. Christians say God established the Bible. Noplace in the Bible did God ever DIS-establish any of the Ten Commandments, and nowhere did God authorize changing the Sabbath Day from Saturday to Sunday. Sunday is not the Sabbath, Saturday is, since God rested on the Seventh Day (not the first). So, Catholics AND Protestants AND Orthodox, while they may not have CHANGED the Ten Commandments, actually obey at best only NINE of them. They blow off the Commandment about honoring Saturday and keeping it holy, preferring in their traditions to exchange Sunday for Saturday, and to call Sunday the Sabbath.

Is there any AUTHORITY for doing THAT?
Well, yes. In the Christian Bible, Jesus (whom the Christians say is God) gives to Peter and the apostles the "power of the keys", "to loose and to bind", and tells them that whatever they bind on earth shall be bound in heaven.
So, based on that, there is (Christian) Biblical authority for the Christians to do as they have: God said in the Ten Commandments to honor the Sabbath Day, Saturday. Peter and the early Catholics used their power of the keys to alter God's commandment, so that Saturday meant Sunday. If you're a Christian and accept the Christian New Testament as authoritative, and Jesus as God, then Peter and the Church could do that - change one of the Ten Commandments - because Jesus gave Peter the power of the keys to do that sort of thing: change the divine law on earth, and bind God by the decision. Jesus didn't change the sabbath day God established from Saturday to Sunday. Peter and the apostles didn't do it formally in the Biblical record either. But they clearly did it, because the records show Christians celebrating on Sunday, and leaving behind the Saturday Sabbath, from the earliest generations.

So, there you have it. AS WRITTEN, in the Bible, the Christians don't keep the Ten Commandments: they do not honor the Saturday Sabbath. But as written, Peter and the Apostles had the power given to them by Jesus to change around the law of God as they thought necessary, and they did so regarding the Saturday sabbath, changing it to Sunday. They didn't explicitly do this in the Bible, but the fact that the Christians always have celebrated the Sunday "Lord's Day" tells us that the tradition of ignoring the Sabbath and honoring Sunday goes back to the earliest traditions of the Christian Church.

Does that Christian tradition override the written Ten Commandments? If Jesus was really God, then he did give Peter the power to bind God by his decisions, so if Peter or the Apostles (or perhaps their heirs...that part is murkier) substituted Sunday for the Sabbath...then God is bound to respect that tradition of the Church and not hold Christians to the commandment to honor the Sabbath Day.

If Jesus was NOT God, then Christians aren't bound to the Ten Commandments anyway. They're Gentiles, and the Ten Commandments were given to the Jews. Christians, as Gentiles, would only be bound by the Seven Noachide Laws, and wouldn't have anything further to do with the Torah or Jewish law.

So paradoxically you end up for Christians with one of two situations: Either Jesus was who Christians say he was, in which case Christians are bound to whatever Peter and the Apostles said, because they had the power of the keys. Or Jesus was just an unfortunate man who was killed in Roman Palestine, in which case Jewish Christians are bound by the Torah, and Gentile Christians are only bound by the 7 Noachide laws, and can stop reading the Bible once they get to the end of the story of Noah. They're mostly descendants of Japheth, and all the Jewish Scriptures tell us about them is that they're blessed. The rest of the stuff from Abraham on down applies to Semites only, and the Ten Commandments don't apply to Christians. Christians can have meaningless statues. They need to dig out the Seven Noachide Laws and learn those. They have 7, not 10, Commandments. (If Jesus WAS God, then Christians have 9, not 10, Commandments and can blow off the Sabbath business and follow their Sunday tradition, because Peter said so and he was given the power by Jesus God to do it.)

I suppose that there's one last possibility, and that's that Jesus wasn't God, and there isn't really a Yahweh out there either burning bushes or handing out commandments. If that's the case, the whole Bible is a set of ancient myths and nobody's bound by any of it other than by respect for tradition and the desire not to offend mom.

Each must decide for himself.


37 posted on 03/12/2007 11:59:29 AM PDT by Vicomte13 (Le chien aboie; la caravane passe.)
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To: Salvation

The logic of the Latin listing:

[In the ancient scriptural traditions, the number "four" was not permitted to be used represent the Divine, as "four" is an imperfect number. "One" and "Three" are perfect numbers.]

Three Commandments (1-3) pertain to God.

Three Commandments (5-7) pertain to our neighbor: no murder, adultery, or theft.

One Commandment (4) pertains to the bridge which brings us from God to our neighbor: our parents whom we must honor.

Three Commandments (8-10) mirror 5-7. Don't kill your neighbor's reputation, don't even think about adultery, and don't even think about stealing.



38 posted on 03/12/2007 7:12:58 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler (] Tagline Under Construction [)
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To: Salvation
Simple logic would say that the 9th and 10th Commandment on the Latin List, both on coveting, especially the way they are worded, should be one commandment --- not two. Because if its two, then why not break it into three or four commandments.

And if one is to consider the first commandment to include both "have no other gods before me" and "make no image" as part of it, then quote the whole commandment that includes it. Otherwise, why not the latter part instead of the former.

The biggest problem the Jews had in the Land of Israel was with idolatry --- making images of things and worshipping them. They too kept forgetting about the "making image" part of the Decalogue.

Perhaps, instead of numbering them, Deuteronomy 20:1-17 should just be quoted verbatim and let those who read it put their own numbers to them.

39 posted on 03/13/2007 5:31:25 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Salvation; lightman
Amazing how much might be learned through a song. Too bad there isn't a simple one for children.

I'm not too sure, but I think that IS a "simple one, for children". ;'}

40 posted on 03/13/2007 6:00:41 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Jeff Chandler

Look up "thou shalt not commit adultery." The Hebrew word means to commit adultery, but also "idolatrous worship."
(blueletterbible.com)

In the Septuagint, the double entendre is preserved.

moich-euô ,

A. commit adultery with a woman,
2. metaph., worship idolatrously
(http://www.perseus.tufts.edu)

The Vulgate has non moechaberis -- tufts.edu doesn't give the second meaning but I have seen it in Latin dictionaries.


41 posted on 03/13/2007 12:33:46 PM PDT by scrabblehack
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To: Uncle Chip
See #38, which explains the "simple logic" behind the Latin enumeration of the commandments. Simple logic tells us that wives are not property. We aren't mohammedans. If adultery ("stealing" your neighbour's wife) is a separate offense from stealing your neighbour's property, then the desire to do these things also make two separate offenses.

And if one is to consider the first commandment to include both "have no other gods before me" and "make no image" as part of it, then quote the whole commandment that includes it.

When the Ten Commandments are actually taught, that is precisely what is done; generally several variations on 'false gods' are explored ranging from old fashioned paganism to modern worship of the State, or of public opinion.

42 posted on 03/13/2007 12:41:13 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Salvation; P.O.E.; ArrogantBustard; Uncle Chip

Hmmm....I don't see how the finger exercise could be adapted for the Catholic version.

Most people have a first, middle, and last name, although some have two middle names and others have none...that might be more memorable than the scout's pledge.

Deuteronomy 5:21 lists thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife first, followed by his field, house, manservant, maidservant, ox, ass, and everything else...

Exodus 20:17 lists thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house first, followed by his wife, manservant, maidservant, ox, ass, and everything else.


43 posted on 03/15/2007 8:07:34 PM PDT by scrabblehack
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To: FourtySeven

**Catholics deleted no idols command **

Actually I don't think the Catholics did. I am the Lord, thy God, thou shalt have no stange gods before me.

See the table here:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1799282/posts?page=3#3


44 posted on 03/15/2007 8:32:04 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Vicomte13

**The most glaring case of "picking and choosing" indulged in by ALL Christians (except the 7th Day Adventists) is ignoring the Sabbath. The commandment says honor the SABBATH.**

The early Apostles did keep the Sabbath. Then they met again on Sunday to celebrate the Lord's resurrection, read scripture and share a meal. It usually happened in a home. Bet you knew this!


45 posted on 03/15/2007 8:34:45 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Jeff Chandler

Good analysis. Never knew that about the #4.


46 posted on 03/15/2007 8:36:35 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation
Lord Jesus, let Your prayer of unity for Christians
become a reality, in Your way
we have absolute confidence
that you can bring your people together
we give you absolute permission to move Amen

Please help me understand what is meant by the "bolded" words. It can't be what it seems.

47 posted on 03/15/2007 8:52:01 PM PDT by T Minus Four (Acts 8:37)
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To: Salvation

Yes, I knew that.

But Christians ever since have NOT kept the Sabbath, and do not keep the Sabbath.

For Catholics and the Orthodox, this is easy. Power of the keys given to Peter and the Apostles, and given by Peter and the Apostles to the leadership of the Church, in Apostolic succession. So, the Commandment to Honor the Sabbath no longer applies, because it's been superseded, by the authority God vested in Peter and the apostles, which they vested in the Church, by the Tradition of the Church that says that SUNDAY is the day of Catholic (and Orthodox) worship. Catholics do not honor the Sabbath Day and keep it holy, because the Church says they don't have to, and the Church has the authority, given by God, to bind God, which includes changing the Ten Commandments. The Church changed one, and we are bound to obey the Church, and not the Bible, on this point. Or rather, we are bound to obey the Bible and understand that the Power of the Keys in Matthew MEANS that the Church can change the law of the Bible, and that IS divine. So much for the Catholics and Orthodox.

Protestants can't do that. In fact, when Catholics do that, based on the power of the keys, Protestants see Catholics erecting the sort of traditions against the law of God that Jesus railed at the Pharisees for doing. The Bible's the inerrant, infallible Word of God, and the Church cannot modify the Ten Commandments.

But Protestants, except for Seventh Day Adventists, follow the tradition of Sunday worship, which isn't Biblical, and don't honor the Sabbath Day and Keep it Holy. In effect, they follow 9 of the Ten Commandments.

I find this interesting, and I find the justifications given for that interesting.

For Catholics, the Church has the authority of God, including the authority to overrule the Bible (so long as that was done long ago; TODAY the Church could not credibly overrule Sunday and replace it with a Tuesday mandatory mass, for instance. It could try, but it would be the end of infallibility were the assertion made. Everybody would see it as an error.)

For Protestants, it's Bible alone, but they don't keep the Sabbath. A fascinating problem.


48 posted on 03/15/2007 9:00:09 PM PDT by Vicomte13 (Le chien aboie; la caravane passe.)
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To: Vicomte13

**For Protestants, it's Bible alone, but they don't keep the Sabbath. A fascinating problem.**

Nor have they disposed of their globes. For the Bible tells us that the world was/is flat. LOL!

Sola Scriptura Alert!


49 posted on 03/15/2007 9:06:40 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation

Actually, if you read Genesis very, very carefully, without preconceived notions, it tells you something a little bit different.

It tells you that the universe is full of water, and that the visible universe is made out of a bubble in the water. There's water outside of it above, and below: the abyss.

Now, above, the firmament is that: a solid dome. The stars and planets and sun are placed IN the firmament. Not above it. There are gates in the firmament, the gates of heaven, and these gates were opened to flood the world in the time of Noah. Similarly, the waters below are gathered, within the bubble, and dry land appeared, but there are gates in the bubble below, the wellsprings of the earth, and they too were opened to cause the Flood. The Flood wasn't caused by rain, from clouds, It was caused by water rushing down from BEYOND THE STARS AND PLANETS, when the gates of the firmament (in which the stars are fixed) were opened and the water above the bubble poured in.
Also, the Flood wasn't just rain. The water welled up from the wellsprings too.

There's water out there beyond the stars. And that is why the sky is blue. Think about it.

It's a very interesting creation myth.
But it's not true.


50 posted on 03/15/2007 9:30:49 PM PDT by Vicomte13 (Le chien aboie; la caravane passe.)
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