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On This Rock
Catholic Exchange ^ | 9/6/2005 | Fr. James Farfaglia

Posted on 03/18/2007 6:29:20 AM PDT by markomalley

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To: kosta50
Most informative, yet don't miss the opening line "they are postulated to be..."

Likewise, don't miss the last paragraph: "evidence is accepted by the majority of scholars as conclusive." Though, of a Truth, I am not one to put much weight in the concept of "strength in numbers." LOL!

As for Paul's 3 years, he doesn't say what he was doing for those 3 years. the book of Acts contradicts his claim that he went to Arabia before going to Jerusalem.

It is not unusual for us to have such differences in understanding, dear kosta50. But in the end we are looking at the same diamond, the same Light. So I never dismiss your testimony out-of-hand.

For me, Galatians 1:11-20 is a whole testimony, from "But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man" through "Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not" and thus I do read it as Paul's testimony that he spent 3 years in something of a "sabbatical" wherein the Holy Spirit directly revealed the Gospel of Jesus Christ to him.

May God ever bless you, dear kosta50! I look forward to your future posts here or elsewhere on the forum - and especially, to meeting you "on the other side" if not in this life first.

51 posted on 03/20/2007 8:16:25 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: markomalley; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; Quix
[... In order to continue His work on earth and lead all peoples to eternal salvation, Jesus established one visible and hierarchical Church. ..]

What would God, a real God, need with an earthly hierarchal cabal of heir-lings?..
Being GOD?..

52 posted on 03/20/2007 9:56:49 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole)
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To: hosepipe; markomalley; betty boop; Quix; marron; .30Carbine; Dr. Eckleburg; kosta50; Mad Dawg
What would God, a real God, need with an earthly hierarchal cabal of heir-lings?.. Being GOD?..

Indeed, one of my favorite points.

God didn't need Moses to raise his arm to part the Red Sea or to speak to Pharoah or to bring water from the Rock.

He didn't need Sarah to give birth to Isaac>Jacob/Israel.

He didn't need Mary to give birth to Jesus Christ.

He didn't need David to put Goliath down.

He didn't need to make Peter important in any way.

And so on - over and over again - throughout Scripture.

And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. - Matt 3:9

The moral of the story is that we ought never to be proud or vain about such things.

God, of His own will, chooses to permit us to be involved in His Creation - this heaven and earth as well as the one to come.

Praise God!

53 posted on 03/20/2007 10:28:36 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: markomalley

Good post, I look forward to a reply.

I think I'll be waiting a while though.


54 posted on 03/20/2007 10:51:25 AM PDT by FourtySeven (47)
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To: Alamo-Girl; hosepipe; markomalley; betty boop; Quix; marron; .30Carbine; Dr. Eckleburg
God, of His own will, chooses to permit us to be involved in His Creation...

Very, very Orthodox indeed. And kindda self-evident.

55 posted on 03/20/2007 10:55:37 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; betty boop; marron
Thank you for the encouragement, dear kosta50!

As to its being self-evident, yes indeed - however we mortals tend to miss the forest for the trees. We suffer from an "observer problem." LOL!

56 posted on 03/20/2007 11:00:16 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
Likewise, don't miss the last paragraph: "evidence is accepted by the majority of scholars as conclusive

I saw that. First, the majority is not always right (I would wager just the opposite). More importantly, if something is postulated, it cannot be accepted as conclusive. There is a logical disconnect. There is no such thing as a "conclusive postulate." Assumption without proof is no proof. To treat is as such is an oxymoron.

57 posted on 03/20/2007 11:01:52 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Alamo-Girl; betty boop; .30Carbine; Quix
[... God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. - Matt 3:9 ..]

Most of Christianity uses the government of Isreal layed out in the old testament as a model in many things as a model of certain "church" functions, titles, and proclivities.. Other functions are borrowed from the heathen like the regrettable Queen of Heaven in some places..

Isreal told Moses they wanted a KING like the nations around them at the times.. NO.. DEMANDED a King like the nations around them.. The government that God proscribes for Isreal was a renegade government.. because of their demands.. not according to what God would have done.. Nobody knows what that would have been..

As Jesus told Pontius Pilate he was a King of another place not of this planet.. That was quite a revelation right there.. went over Pilates head though.. Dimensional Physics had not even been invented or thunk up yet..

Really.. some people seem to think God is a moron or disabled in a spiritual wheel chair needing help.. and have no idea they themselves are impediments.. not helps to God at all..

I really appreciate Alamo-girls "vision" of a proper stone in the building of God is a DIAMOND allowing the free flow of Gods(light) thru it.. OR if the best you can be is a ruby or amethist or emerald well then, GOD BLESS YOU TOO.. its the light that counts anyway not the reflection or refraction..

58 posted on 03/20/2007 11:04:56 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole)
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To: kosta50
LOLOL! So very true. I find "scholars" to be quite amusing - though I do enjoy reading their publications.

One of my favorite stories: Biblical "scholars" work on the presumption that prophesy cannot occur. Thus when they find a reference to a verifiable bit of history, they date the manuscript after that date. (I love ancient manuscripts, BTW.)

They did that with the book of Enoch which they presumed was written after Herod because it referred to him - was probably composed by Christians since it referred to "The Elect One" i.e. Jesus Christ. yada yada.

Then they found Enoch in the Dead Sea Scrolls and - lo and behold - the fragments carbon-dated as far back as 200 B.C. So something had to change.

But of course they cannot give up their working premise, so it must have been their interpretation that was in error. LOL!

59 posted on 03/20/2007 11:08:21 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: hosepipe

What would God, a real God, need with an earthly hierarchal cabal of heir-lings?..
Being GOD?..
= = =

GREAT WONDERFUL REDEMPTIVE QUESTION.

THX.


60 posted on 03/20/2007 11:17:04 AM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS ABLE; LOVE GOD WHOLLY, HIM & HIS KINGDOM 1ST)
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To: hosepipe; betty boop; Quix; marron; cornelis
Thank you oh so very much for your insights, dear brother in Christ!

Indeed, it is my prayer - my goal - to be transparent in Christ so that His Light can shine unobstructed by me. I'll likely end up an amethyst, but I'm trying. LOL!

And your example of the Israelites demanding a king is quite excellent. We mortals see through the glass darkly and often need some thing or some one we can "touch."

Really though what it amounts to, IMHO, is that most people rely first of all on their own sensory perceptions and then their reasoning and then the counsel of others.

They haven't yet either known or learned to rely on the indwelling Spirit, i.e. Spiritual revelation.

The bottom line:

Who do you believe?


61 posted on 03/20/2007 11:26:36 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Quix; hosepipe
What would God, a real God, need with a book?..
Being GOD?..
62 posted on 03/20/2007 11:35:49 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Tactical shotty, Marlin 1894c, S&W 686P, Sig 226 & 239, Beretta 92fs & 8357, Glock 22, & attitude!)
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To: Alamo-Girl; betty boop; .30Carbine
[... They haven't yet either known or learned to rely on the indwelling Spirit, i.e. Spiritual revelation. / The bottom line: / Who do you believe? ..]

Indeed who do you believe, your senses, your heart(soul), or the spirit/Spirit?..
Brilliant question..

Quite wonderful how Jesus taught the Apostles thru metaphor(parable).. Weaning them slowly from crass words, to ideas, to the epiphany of the metaphor.. Has worked that way with me too.. Still I don't really "get" some of Jesus' metaphors.. Jesus weans from the flesh to the spirit to the Spirit.. in my experience..

Jesus metaphors are sometimes minifors and at other times are megaphors.. or macrophors or microphors.. and other times are microphors within macrophors.. There I've went and done it.. I've overflowed my metaphors.. All I say "IS"..

"WELL GOD BLESS ME"...

63 posted on 03/20/2007 11:45:07 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole)
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To: hosepipe; betty boop; .30Carbine
Beautiful wisdom again served up with your delightful sense of humor. Thank you!

Quite wonderful how Jesus taught the Apostles thru metaphor(parable).. Weaning them slowly from crass words, to ideas, to the epiphany of the metaphor.. Has worked that way with me too.. Still I don't really "get" some of Jesus' metaphors.. Jesus weans from the flesh to the spirit to the Spirit.. in my experience..

SO very true. Most of us are weaned little by little from mortal reasoning to relying on Him.

And the parables and metaphors are particularly revealing. The further we walk with the Lord, the more we understand.

Spiritual Truths are hidden in plain view - always.

Then again, some like Paul get a rude awakening. LOL!

64 posted on 03/20/2007 11:49:42 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Mad Dawg; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; .30Carbine
[... What would God, a real God, need with a book?.. Being GOD?.. ..]

Course, you Know, that the Torah in the beginning was memorized by Rabbis "God books" were looked down on.. it was deemed not a good thing to even speak let alone WRITE Gods name.. or anything else of God..

By thirteen a boy was expected to have memorized the Torah(first 5 books) completely.. as much as he could..

That slowly changed but remnants of that idea you can still find in Judaism.. somewhat..

Back to the question.. A real God does not need a book, any book.. God is NOT creating an organization with bylaws he is creating a family with members in particular.. its ..NOT..what you BELIEVE that counts it is Who you ARE that counts(book of life)..

65 posted on 03/20/2007 12:01:50 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole)
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To: hosepipe; Mad Dawg; betty boop; .30Carbine
You are on a roll today, hosepipe!

Truly, when we read everything as a whole from Genesis to Revelation it is only obvious that Jesus Christ was not enfleshed to start a religion but rather to gather the family.

He is the First Cause and the Final Cause. The Alpha and the Omega.

Everything moves towards that Final Cause, that kingdom come, that new heaven and earth in which we are a family.

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.– Col 1:15-20


66 posted on 03/20/2007 12:11:29 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
[... Everything moves towards that Final Cause, that kingdom come, that new heaven and earth in which we are a family. ..]

Indeed a new heaven and a new earth as it was written.. and no doubt a new HELL too.. ALL new stuff.. (1Cor 2;9)

The Universe will/can be a different place.. No reason to change the Universe though.. Its Us that needs some changing..

Its also possible not much will actually change except our perception of all there is will change.. i.e. changes in "US".. radically changed perceptibility..

I'm game and way past ready.. currently learning patience..

67 posted on 03/20/2007 12:25:44 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole)
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To: hosepipe
Indeed, "what is reality?" is a most fascinating question all on its own.

I'm game and way past ready.. currently learning patience..

LOLOL! I'm ready too. Marantha, Jesus!

68 posted on 03/20/2007 12:36:03 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: hosepipe; kosta50; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; Quix; marron; .30Carbine; Dr. Eckleburg
What would God, a real God, need with an earthly hierarchal cabal of heir-lings?..

Being GOD?..

Why, indeed?

But, the fact of the matter is that's the way He did it. From the beginning:

God did not preserve the animals by Himself, although he easily could have. He had Noah build an ark.

Why in the world did God have the priest/king Melchizedek bless Abram (Gen 14)?

Why David? Why the prophets? Why did God need Aaron? or Moses? Why could God not have worked directly with His people?

You bring up a very valid question. God is omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent. It seems that God would not need anybody to work directly with His people.

It also seems that God would not need to send His son to suffer and die for us. Wouldn't He simply be able to forgive us our sins? After all, He's God, right?

But the fact of the matter is that God did what He did.

The fact of the matter is that God sent His son to be the propritiation for our sins. The fact of the matter is that we are buried with His son when we are baptized in the hopes that we will rise in glory (Rom 6:4-5). And when we are baptized we are baptized into one body (1 Cor 12:13) with Christ as the head of that body (Eph 4:15). We suffer with Him (Rom 8:17, 1 Cor 12:26); our suffering fills up that which is lacking in His afflictions (Col 1:24 -- Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church).

And the fact of the matter is that He formed His Church in the fashion that He wished it to be formed.

And He formed it with Bishops (episkopos), priests (presbuteros, rendered "elder" in the kjv), and deacons (diakonos). Did He need to do so? Well, equating God with need just doesn't seem to make sense to me...

But He did. And that's that.

Now would I call it an earthly hierarchal cabal of heirlings? Well, a cabal is defined as: a clique (often secret) that seeks power usually through intrigue. I wouldn't exactly call this a cabal. Of course, since you hate the Catholic Church more than the devil himself, I can understsand why you'd do so. As to heirlings, well, we are all heirs of God and fellow-heirs with Christ (according to Romans 8:17), so I guess that's accurate...although I don't think that's the way you meant it.

69 posted on 03/20/2007 1:18:23 PM PDT by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus CINO-RINO GRAZIE NO)
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To: markomalley
[... Of course, since you hate the Catholic Church more than the devil himself, I can understsand why you'd do so. ..]

The Roman Catholic Church is not the Catholic Church.. unless the Protestant Churchs are CLUBS.. I deem them both to be Clubs.. because they ARE... There is only one church.. one Body Of Christ.. Clubs are allowed though (Seven churchs of Asia) but not recommended... see the book of revelation.. Which is the Revelation of Jesus Christ(Rev ch1;1)..

[... As to heirlings, well, we are all heirs of God and fellow-heirs with Christ ..]

Big difference between hier-ling and heir-ling.. see Gos.John Chap 10..

70 posted on 03/20/2007 2:12:21 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole)
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To: hosepipe
The Roman Catholic Church is not the Catholic Church.. unless the Protestant Churchs are CLUBS.. I deem them both to be Clubs.. because they ARE... There is only one church.. one Body Of Christ.. Clubs are allowed though (Seven churchs of Asia) but not recommended... see the book of revelation.. Which is the Revelation of Jesus Christ(Rev ch1;1)..

Jesus is not a polygamist. There is but one Church, the bride of Christ. (cf Eph 5:23). That Church is universal in nature (thus the Greek katholikos -- transliterated to Catholic). All people who are baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost (Spirit) (Matt 28:19) are members of that Church...

You want to call the Protestant groups "Clubs" -- OK. I'd call them "ecclesial communities," but the effect is the same.

You then said,

Big difference between hier-ling and heir-ling.. see Gos.John Chap 10..

True enough. You'll note that I used the spelling heir-ling, as you did in your earlier post. But, by the way, it's hire-ling, not hier-ling.

71 posted on 03/20/2007 6:49:16 PM PDT by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus CINO-RINO GRAZIE NO)
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To: markomalley

[... True enough. You'll note that I used the spelling heir-ling, as you did in your earlier post. But, by the way, it's hire-ling, not hier-ling. ..]

In the sense Hierophant.. I was using double entre'..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierophant


72 posted on 03/20/2007 7:32:52 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole)
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To: markomalley; hosepipe
Frequently the churches in the New Testament are identified by the location where they lived or met. In Philemon 1:2 and Colossians 4:15 we see the church is in a home. Elsewhere Scripture speaks of churches at Cenchrea, Corinth, Thessalonia, Crete, Babylon. And certainly the apostles assembled in Jerusalem so that must have been considered a church as well.

Moreover Christ receives with commendations and rebukes seven different churches at Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea. Notably, each church He speaks to had things they got right and things they got wrong.

And surely all of us understand the sum of all the believers regardless of when or where they lived (or will live) constitutes the body of Christ. We are the church, and Christ is the head (Eph 5:23).

However, if the Catholic interpretation of Matthew 16 were correct – considering that Revelation was given so soon after the Resurrection - I would have expected Christ to reveal His messages to the 7 churches through Peter or his successor as He did with Moses and then his successor, Joshua.

I hasten to add that I am not anti-Catholic. My entire family is Christian and half of them are Catholic.

Curiosly, the assembly at mount Sinai was also a church:

This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: - Acts 7:37-38


73 posted on 03/20/2007 10:44:40 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: ArchA27
Well, there are now over 30,000+ Protestant denominations each teaching differently.

No, there aren't.

Why should we take you serious when you can't even keep your facts straight?

74 posted on 03/20/2007 11:03:17 PM PDT by Gamecock (Ecclesia reformata, semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei)
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To: Alamo-Girl; hosepipe
What metaphor does is force our mind into action to find meaning at another level, engaging the imagination to look for relationships and resonances that tell us more than any literal description ever could. We cannot be passive before a metaphor. We must imagine and enter into it. Metaphor enlists us in a believing, obeying, living participation.
~Eugene H. Peterson

75 posted on 03/21/2007 3:13:26 AM PDT by .30Carbine
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To: Alamo-Girl
Frequently the churches in the New Testament are identified by the location where they lived or met. In Philemon 1:2 and Colossians 4:15 we see the church is in a home. Elsewhere Scripture speaks of churches at Cenchrea, Corinth, Thessalonia, Crete, Babylon. And certainly the apostles assembled in Jerusalem so that must have been considered a church as well.

Absolutely. There are particular churches within the Church. Remember that the secular translation of ekklesia is assembly. But, as you point out, the sum of all Christians is His body; He has one bride: the Church.

Moreover Christ receives with commendations and rebukes seven different churches at Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea. Notably, each church He speaks to had things they got right and things they got wrong.

Again, absolutely. But, I'd like you to consider something: the rebukes Christ gives the particular churches in Asia Minor (in the Apocolypse of John) were delivered to those churches via the pen of the Apostle John. He did not have John document messages to the particular church in Antioch, in Alexandria, in Hispania, in Greece, in Carthage, or anyplace to the east of Jerusalem. He didn't even have John document messages to the particular churches in Thrace (e.g., Thessaloniki) or in Galatia. Only to Asia Minor. It's fairly well accepted on a historical basis that John went to Ephesus, in the center of Asia Minor.

It should be interesting that it is not documented that Christ communicated with each of these particular churches through John. We do not have documented that He communicated with the bishop of each church directly, but through this individual. It almost appears like a patriarchal type of role for this person.

And that's why, unlike what you point out, in saying:

However, if the Catholic interpretation of Matthew 16 were correct – considering that Revelation was given so soon after the Resurrection - I would have expected Christ to reveal His messages to the 7 churches through Peter or his successor as He did with Moses and then his successor, Joshua.

...I do not see any inconsistency. All of these particular churches were in a particular small area. Jesus communmicated to His churches through a revelation given to a man...who was charged with communicating that message to those churches. So this is entirely consistent with the Catholic interpretation of Matthew 16 and the historic, hierarchial nature of the Church.

You then say, I hasten to add that I am not anti-Catholic. My entire family is Christian and half of them are Catholic.

I'm very glad that your entire family is Christian and I hope that at least some of the half of your family that is Catholic. I have a cousin who was a Free-Will Baptist preacher. His older daughter converted to Catholicism three years ago. From what I understand, she's considering a religious vocation. He and his younger daughter are going to be received into the Anglican church this Easter. His wife is staying Baptist. It's interesting how God works.

And I do realize that you're not anti-Catholic: you're pro-God. And good for you on that! I wish that more Catholics had a meek and humble attitude toward God that you have shown on this board and a voracious attitude toward understanding the Scripture that you've displayed. If more Catholics had the desire to study the scriptures as you have done, it would make them far better Catholics.

76 posted on 03/21/2007 3:19:09 AM PDT by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus CINO-RINO GRAZIE NO)
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To: hosepipe
In the sense Hierophant

Thanks for the clarification!

77 posted on 03/21/2007 3:48:02 AM PDT by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus CINO-RINO GRAZIE NO)
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To: Gamecock; ArchA27
No, there aren't

You may wish to take a look at this link:

Armstrong, Kresta, 23,000 or More Protestant Denominations: a Myth of Catholic Apologists or a Documented Fact?

That page shows some of the sources used to come up with the number.

Note: I am not claiming 30,000 denominations. I have only personally counted about 3,000 and I haven't checked the sources cited by the authors of the above page...but if they were to check out, then that would provide a little 'gravitas' to the number 30,000.

78 posted on 03/21/2007 3:53:44 AM PDT by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus CINO-RINO GRAZIE NO)
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To: .30Carbine
Thank you oh so very much for that quote, dear sister in Christ!
79 posted on 03/21/2007 9:39:40 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: markomalley; hosepipe; .30Carbine
Thank you for your encouragements and for sharing your insights!

Some see the churches in Revelation as a metaphor for the stages of the church from the Resurrection to Christ’s second coming. That however does not ring true in the Spirit for me.

Rather, I am drawn in the Spirit to see the seven churches as metaphors or “types” for the different types of assemblies of Christians or the Christians themselves. We all have our own circumstances, strengths and weaknesses. Some of us are stuck in “sin cities” – some are under persecution – some are indifferent on spiritual matters – some overflow with love.

Around here, on the Religion Forum, I see many Christians who are like the Church of Ephesus – they are passionate and careful with regard to their doctrine and traditions - but by their words and behavior are saying that they do not love God and/or their neighbor. Perhaps the Church of Ephesus is drawn to the “forum” format?

Nevertheless, if the churches were meant to be hierarchical in this life, with a single authority over all - I’d expect the seven to be presented by God like they are in a Menorah, the metaphor given to Moses, but they are not.

The Menorah is a single work of seven lamps, a single shaft (emphasis mine):

And thou shalt make a candlestick [of] pure gold: [of] beaten work shall the candlestick be made: his shaft, and his branches, his bowls, his knops, and his flowers, shall be of the same. And six branches shall come out of the sides of it; three branches of the candlestick out of the one side, and three branches of the candlestick out of the other side: Three bowls made like unto almonds, [with] a knop and a flower in one branch; and three bowls made like almonds in the other branch, [with] a knop and a flower: so in the six branches that come out of the candlestick. And in the candlestick [shall be] four bowls made like unto almonds, [with] their knops and their flowers. And [there shall be] a knop under two branches of the same, and a knop under two branches of the same, and a knop under two branches of the same, according to the six branches that proceed out of the candlestick. Their knops and their branches shall be of the same: all it [shall be] one beaten work [of] pure gold. And thou shalt make the seven lamps thereof: and they shall light the lamps thereof, that they may give light over against it. And the tongs thereof, and the snuffdishes thereof, [shall be of] pure gold. [Of] a talent of pure gold shall he make it, with all these vessels. And look that thou make [them] after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount. – Exodus 25:31-40

By comparison, each candlestick which represents a church in Revelation is separate from the others (emphasis mine):

And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; And in the midst of the seven candlesticks [one] like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and [his] hairs [were] white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes [were] as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance [was] as the sun shineth in his strength.

And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. – Rev 1:12-20

Speaking of my family, both of my brothers who were not Catholic married Catholic girls. The one brother became Catholic and all their children after them. The other sister in law became Protestant and their children after them. Some of the children have confided in me that they intend to change but will not while their parents are still in the flesh in order to honor them.

The neat part is Jesus Christ is subject #1 in family gatherings and there are no bitter disputes over differences in doctrine or tradition. God has blessed my entire family!

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. - Joshua 24:15


80 posted on 03/21/2007 9:45:52 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: markomalley; Gamecock; ArchA27
Interesting link, thanks.

The book mentioned, David Barrett's World Christian Encyclopedia, as the primary source of the figure of "33,000" or "20,000" or similar figures we Catholics talk about seems to define "denomination" in a slightly unorthodox fashion (no pun intended).

Denomination is defined as an organization within a single country. This means that if the Roman Catholic church is in 234 countries, it would have a at least 234 denominations. Conversely, To say the Roman Catholic church has 239 denominations in 234 countries, is a conclusion that seriously misreads the data. On the other hand, the fact that there are 8848 denominations in the Protestant column, does not mean there are 8848 Protestant denominations as Catholics suggest. If you divide 8848 by the 237 countries, you come up with a figure of only actual 37 denominations in 237 countries.

I don't quite understand the logic here, especially the last sentence, but that's ok. The tables here are the useful part, and give us a fair idea of the true number of denominations, in common parlance.

Note, the divisions in "Roman Catholic" are the different "rites", so this is not a "denominational" division in the theological sense. Anyone with a basic understanding of the Church knows this.

Similarly for the Orthodox Church. (I imagine, but perhaps an Orthodox adherant can shed some light on it further).

However, if we count the actual names underneath the tables called, "Anglican", "Protestant", and "Independent" (and ignore those under the "Marginal" table), we come to a grand total of 242 separate and distinct "denominations" (at least what we, in theology would call "denominations".)

If we delete the "Independent" (if someone protests, again no pun intended, that the "Independent" denominations aren't really PROTESTANT denominations), then we are still left with 42 separate and distinct denominations.

42 denominations, all claiming to have the whole truth (obviously, or else why separate from the others?) 42 all claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit.

The message here is clear: Whether the number is 30,000 or 42, there STILL exists a clear distinction between churches, (Catholic included), ALL of which claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit.

So the ultimate question still remains: Is the Holy Spirit the author of confusion? If not, then a Christian's task is clear: He must choose ONE of those churches in the list above, and ALSO MUST believe the rest are, at least, not fully true. If not, then the Christian is supporting the notion that the Holy Spirit is the author of confusion. There's no getting around that.

Let's not loose sight of the forest because of the trees. It's really irrelevant if there are 30,000 Protestant denominations or 42, or even only 2. As long as there are at least TWO that are CLEARLY different in their DOCTRINE, then the point above is valid.

81 posted on 03/21/2007 10:01:38 AM PDT by FourtySeven (47)
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To: FourtySeven; markomalley; Gamecock; ArchA27; hosepipe; .30Carbine
The message here is clear: Whether the number is 30,000 or 42, there STILL exists a clear distinction between churches, (Catholic included), ALL of which claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit.

Er, I eschew all of the doctrines and traditions of men - whether the Pope, Calvin, Arminius, Billy Graham, Joseph Smith etc.

I am a Christian plain and simple, i.e. I do not choose from that or any list.

82 posted on 03/21/2007 10:17:01 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: FourtySeven

My point was hyperbole doesn't win arguments.


83 posted on 03/21/2007 10:38:47 AM PDT by Gamecock (Ecclesia reformata, semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei)
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To: Alamo-Girl
[... Er, I eschew all of the doctrines and traditions of men - whether the Pope, Calvin, Arminius, Billy Graham, Joseph Smith etc. ..]

Amazing how some people think God is like some moron that can be legally locked up in some Bylaws or Corporate Charter(501c) or Catechism of rules men put upon men, and God himself.. If everyone saw things exactely the same then why 4 Gospels?.. The Holy Spirit is alive and well not hampered in any way by the rules of men..

Paul wrote a whole screed to the Galatians about legal religious lawyers.. to watch out for them.. All those seeking God may have something beneficial to share.. but not the whole vision.. all see thru a glass darkly..

"God made us able ministers of a new covenant; not of letter, but of Spirit (PNEUMOS). For the letter [the literal] kills, but the Spirit (PNEUMOS) makes alive." -2 Corinthians 3:6 (Interlinear Bible)

84 posted on 03/21/2007 12:02:49 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole)
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To: Alamo-Girl; hosepipe

But then we run into the 2 Pe 1:20 issue.


85 posted on 03/21/2007 12:13:36 PM PDT by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus CINO-RINO GRAZIE NO)
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To: markomalley
[... 20/Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. 21/For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter 1:20-21 (New International Version) ..]

To those that deal with the Holy Spirit prophecy happens commonly..
What is the Holy Spirit telling YOU?...

86 posted on 03/21/2007 12:21:51 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole)
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To: hosepipe
What is the Holy Spirit telling YOU?

That is a lead-off to the most overused phrase in modern evangelical Christianity. "God told me to tell you..."

With the natural come-back "If He told you...He would have told me too!"

Seriously, I am moved to walk in love always. As God is love (cf 1 Jn 4:8). I am moved to walk in light always, because God is light and in Him is no darkness at all (cf 1 Jn 1:5). As to more specific communication, well, I ain't Pat Robertson. When a still, small voice whispers in my ear, it's a private matter.

Maybe you would care to answer your own question...

87 posted on 03/21/2007 4:02:45 PM PDT by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus CINO-RINO GRAZIE NO)
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To: markomalley; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; .30Carbine
[... Seriously, I am moved to walk in love always. As God is love (cf 1 Jn 4:8). I am moved to walk in light always, because God is light and in Him is no darkness at all (cf 1 Jn 1:5). As to more specific communication, well, I ain't Pat Robertson. When a still, small voice whispers in my ear, it's a private matter. ..]

I have no problem with that...

[... Maybe you would care to answer your own question...]

THAT... He will be as REAL to me as I am with Him....

88 posted on 03/21/2007 4:11:30 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole)
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To: markomalley; hosepipe; betty boop; .30Carbine
It's not an issue. Here's looking at the passage in context:

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost. – 2 Peter 1:16-21

In verse 20/21, Peter is speaking of prophesy of the scripture, in old time – the Tanakh as we would call it – that it is sure because holy men of God were speaking as the Holy Ghost moved them. In the preceding sentence, he says our word of prophesy (now) is more sure than that.

There are two types of prophesy. One type reveals what will happen in the future, the other reveals a message for the here and now. But in either case, the prophesy must be from God – not from the mind of the mortal man.

Moreover, we Christians are not like those who lived before Christ was Resurrected. He has given us the Holy Spirit to lead us into Truth. We only need to ask.

If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? – Luke 11:13

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. – John 1:12-13

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. – John 3:5-6

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. – John 15:4

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. – John 17:20-23

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. – Romans 8:9

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. – Gal 2:20

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. – Col 3:3

Of a Truth, every Christian has been born in the Spirit – but not every Christian is filled with the Holy Spirit – which is to say, has learned to yield to the Spirit. It takes time – for many of us, a very long time indeed.

Thus when we read a passage – like the one we are discussing, Revelation 2 and 3 – we ought to be asking ourselves:

Who do I believe?

If we are yielding to the Spirit, we are trusting Him and believing Him and He is faithful to lead us into the Truth.

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. – John 16:13

They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. – John 17:16-17

All of which returns us to 1 Peter – we Christians have the power of God.

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. – 1 Peter 1:22-23

If we compare this then to the passage at the top of this post, Peter 1:16-21 - we see that Peter is saying that we have the power of God and a more sure Spiritual understanding.

One final point: Spiritual revelation is like a diamond with seven facets. Depending on which facet one is facing, he might see something a bit differently. But it is the same diamond and the same Light. The Holy Spirit leads each of us, individually and personally. We should never expect to be a “cookie cutter” copy of the next guy in our Spiritual discernment.

Any hoot, that’s my two cents…

89 posted on 03/21/2007 10:07:42 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl

After reading your post, I feel like I've ingested a homily at Church! Thanks for your post, Girl.


90 posted on 03/21/2007 10:11:36 PM PDT by MHGinTN (If you've had life support. Promote life support for others.)
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To: MHGinTN
Thank you so much for your encouragements, dear MHGinTN!
91 posted on 03/21/2007 10:18:33 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl; betty boop; .30Carbine; cornelis
I wonder if we are watched, guarded and monitored by angels all our lives, up to a/some point.. and they go to God with anything they deem worthy about us including our attempts at prayer..

Surely God can and does delegate tasks.. and when we really appear to be serious they go to God(in some aspect) with requests and/or problems, and other "things".. Could also answer where dreams come from(an Angel task).. since dreams appear, to me, to be something to keep our spirits busy while our bodies sleep..

Dreams appear to me to be a spiritual thing.. Could be what happens to Us(or even some of us) when our bodies die.. That is... we enter into some kind of dream existence.. that would NOT seem Weird to us since we did it(dream) all our lives while on this planet.. In my dreams on this planet it is almost like the dream could last for a few minutes or hours and the timeing seems the same.. no matter all thats gone on in the dream.. Like time is elastic.. Yeah thats more accurate to me... elastic time..

92 posted on 03/22/2007 12:35:33 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole)
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To: Alamo-Girl
Are there any Physicists that propose ELASTIC TIME?...
93 posted on 03/22/2007 12:42:00 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole)
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To: markomalley
Oops, I just noticed that I failed to mention something in my sidebar with you, markomalley! Since it is particularly relevant to post 89, I hasten to add:

When posting on this Religion Forum, I try diligently to make the distinction between understanding to which I am led by the indwelling Spirit – and my own musings – so there will be no confusion as to the weight I give certain observations.

In post 80, for instance, that the churches in Revelation 2 and 3 are metaphors for different assemblies of Christians and individual Christians – is a leaning I have in the indwelling Spirit. However, the observation that that the seven candlesticks are separate and not a single work of seven lamps like the Menorah is my own musing on the subject.

The musing is rooted in the observation that Jesus, since His ascension, usually speaks to us through the Holy Spirit, but spoke personally to Paul on the road to Damascus and in Revelation, to the Apostle John. God never changes (Mal 3:6, Hebrews 13:8, etc.) – but we do. And a thing not said is as curious to me as a thing said.

94 posted on 03/22/2007 8:23:49 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: hosepipe; betty boop; cornelis; .30Carbine
Thank you so much for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!

The great insight of Relativity (special and general) is that time is geometric. A week may elapse near a black hole while a half century elapses on earth, etc. That is because of the equivalency principle.

If you were traveling at the speed of light, for you no time would elapse (null path) - though people observing you would sense time passing.

Nevertheless there are two involuntary (IMHO) mindsets concerning time. One sees a three dimensional space evolving over time. The other sees time as a dimension, one of four that we perceive. The latter is Relativity. I do not know of any Physicists who call time "elastic."

Concerning angels, I'm confident they remain as busy as ever. But whether we have angels assigned to us, individually, I have no leaning at all in the Spirit.

But it seems to me that would be unnecessary, since as long as we abide in Christ and He abides in us - we are demon-proof, and the Spirit Himself intercedes for us.

Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. - Romans 8:26

Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. - James 4:7

But the reverse would be true. If we do not submit ourselves to God, then we are apt to be plagued by evil spirits - and would really need some angelic help.

95 posted on 03/22/2007 9:02:47 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
In post 80, for instance, that the churches in Revelation 2 and 3 are metaphors for different assemblies of Christians and individual Christians – is a leaning I have in the indwelling Spirit. However, the observation that that the seven candlesticks are separate and not a single work of seven lamps like the Menorah is my own musing on the subject.

The metaphor to which you speak is absolutely applicable, in my opinion. While I am confident that the words were applicable to those particular churches in that time, I am also confident that there were other cities with other churches that could have been selected had they been appropriate for the long-term understanding and applicability of the narrative (particularly to ignorant, egotistical westerners, 2 millennia after the document was written). But, the key thing I want you to note was that John was directed to write these things not to churches outside of his area, but to churches that were in his immediate locality.

Also you are correct that there are 7 candlesticks, not 7 branches of a menorah. However, what lights the fire on each candlestick? If you ever go to a Catholic Easter Vigil with some of your relatives, that metaphor becomes strikingly clear for the understanding.

I agree that God works within us to will and do of His good pleasure; however, God set among us a hierarchy that is Biblically defined. That does not reduce God's ability to work with us, but I have noted that people are incredibly stupid and head strong. As I have observed on other threads, the symbol for the bishop is the crozier. That is true both in the east and the west. In the west, at least, the crozier is what we typically associate with a shepherd's crook. There is a hook on one end and a staff on the other. If you've ever seen a shepherd in the old country use that shepherd's crook, there is a very applicable analogy that applies to the shepherds of men, as well.

Just something to consider.

God's blessings to you!

96 posted on 03/22/2007 10:38:25 AM PDT by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus CINO-RINO GRAZIE NO)
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To: markomalley; hosepipe; betty boop; .30Carbine; Dr. Eckleburg
Well, with all due respect to Catholicism, the Good Shepherd is Jesus Christ (John 10). Peter also calls Him the Chief Shepherd and tells the successors not to be lords of God’s heritage but living examples to His flock (emphasis mine):

The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight [thereof], not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over [God's] heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. – 1 Peter 5:1-4

Peter here is passing on the responsibility he received directly from the Lord. But the Lord’s commission to Peter came with the important qualification which He repeated three – count ‘em – three times, that he must love Jesus absolutely to be qualified to feed His sheep:

So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. He saith to him again the second time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. He saith unto him the third time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep. – John 21:15-17

Here is the leaning I have in the Spirit (not a musing): Jesus Christ is our food and our drink, we Christians must feed on Him, not figuratively speaking but really, in Spirit and in Truth.

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum. Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them,

Doth this offend you? [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. – John 6:53-63

And so the successors to Peter’s commission – no matter how or when or where God appoints them – to the man, each have the responsibility and the authority to serve up the words of God – providing they love Jesus absolutely. If they fail on the love part, He’ll shut the door on them and they will not be able to open it.

And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. – Rev 3:7-8

So this is the qualification to me – not whether someone was appointed by Peter or his successors but whether is qualified according to Christ’s commission to Peter. It comes down to priorities (Matt 7 – good tree, good fruit). If the life of the one speaking to me about Spiritual matters does not scream of an overwhelming love for Jesus Christ, I do not consume what he has to say. I am just a sheep, a Christian plain and simple – and there are many hirelings out there.

But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.

As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.

Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. – John 10:12-18


97 posted on 03/22/2007 12:20:46 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl; Salvation
Well, with all due respect to Catholicism, the Good Shepherd is Jesus Christ (John 10). Peter also calls Him the Chief Shepherd and tells the successors not to be lords of God’s heritage but living examples to His flock (emphasis mine):
The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight [thereof], not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over [God's] heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. – 1 Peter 5:1-4

Well, with all due respect to you, I absolutely agree. The Good Shepherd is Jesus Christ (John 10). The Chief Shepherd is Jesus Christ (1 Pet 5). However, he also gave shepherds unto the Church (Eph 4:11):

And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,

Note: the word 'pastors' in the above word is the same word as is used for shepherd, poimen (Strong's 4166), defined as 'a herdsman, esp. a shepherd.'


Peter here is passing on the responsibility he received directly from the Lord. But the Lord’s commission to Peter came with the important qualification which He repeated three – count ‘em – three times, that he must love Jesus absolutely to be qualified to feed His sheep:

That is a VERY Catholic response you have provided there (said in complete seriousness). Peter DID pass on that responsibility he received directly from the Lord. That is a major mark of the Catholic Church: apostolicity. That is how the responsibilities are passed down in succession. (As a collateral point, do you know what one of the Pope's titles is? 'Servant of the servants of the Lord.'). This is not to say that all Catholic pastors and all Catholic bishops live up to their responsiblities, but definitely service to the flock and being 'an ensample' to the flock is the principle responsibility.


Here is the leaning I have in the Spirit (not a musing): Jesus Christ is our food and our drink, we Christians must feed on Him, not figuratively speaking but really, in Spirit and in Truth.

Praise God! You see the truth of the matter! But it is not only in Spirit (and in Truth), it is literally. He is the Bread of Life and we must be nourished on Him, just as the tribes of Israel were nourished on the manna in the desert (a prefiguring of Christ, btw).


STUNNING INPUTS! I am truly floored (in a good way!). May the Holy Spirit continue to work in you!

98 posted on 03/22/2007 1:26:35 PM PDT by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus CINO-RINO GRAZIE NO)
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To: markomalley; kosta50
LOLOL! This must be a record. On post 55, kosta50 remarked that what I said sounded Orthodox - and on post 98, you remarked that what I said sounded Catholic.

And here am I - a Christian, plain and simple.

May God bless you both, always.

99 posted on 03/22/2007 7:26:25 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl; markomalley
LOLOL! This must be a record. On post 55, kosta50 remarked that what I said sounded Orthodox - and on post 98, you remarked that what I said sounded Catholic

In this case, it's one and the same, AG. Our differences were not touched by this. :)

And here am I - a Christian, plain and simple

There is nothing plain and simple about you AG. What you said was both orthodox (true) and catholic (universal), and therefore Christian.

100 posted on 03/22/2007 7:58:01 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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