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To: Alamo-Girl
Er, if you think the Torah was authored by mortals then you seem to have missed the point made by Jesus Christ in the Sermon on the Mount:

But it was authored by mortals. Divinely inspired, yes, but properly speaking, authorship of the Torah belongs to Moses (or the sources of those traditions), inspired by God. It is still the voice of the author conveying Truth, but in a setting dictated by the milieu of the temporal author. Hence, there are two different creation stories at the beginning of Genesis, coming from two different sources, from two different eras, the priestly and the Yahwist. God wasn't being schizophrenic, He inspired two authors of differing backgrounds to present an entire picture.

Still, the reference of "the Rock" in the O.T. does not pertain to a direct quote from God, whereas "I AM", "thou art Peter", "Israel shall be thy name" and "thou shalt be called Abraham" are indeed directly attributed to the utterance of God. The authors of the O.T., who describe God as "the Rock" are conveying, in terms understandable to their audience, the everlasting, ever-powerful nature of God. It's a description, not a proper naming. This doesn't mean it's a false description - by no means, it's most definitely true! But the action of Jesus naming Simon bar-Jonah "Rock" is indeed a unique, creative event BECAUSE it came from the mouth of the Word made flesh, not the inspired reflections of the author.

Oh and Jesus Christ is the living Word of God from the beginning (John 1:1). Everything that was made was made by Him and for Him (John 1, Col 1, Rev) He didn’t only begin speaking to man when He was enfleshed.

How does this relate to the fact that nowhere does God directly state, "I am the Rock", but He does directly say, "Thou art Peter"? The whole of Creation is "And God said..." over and over again. When He speaks, there is Wisdom and Love, and through this Love, Creation. It's also no small detail that God gave to man the job of naming everything around him. To give name to something is to exercise dominion over it. When, instead of man, God gives name to something, that "something" directly and explicitly becomes the cherished possession of God - be it Abraham (father of nations), Israel (the Chosen), Jesus (the Savior), or Peter (the Church). God didn't hand out new names unless something extraordinary and new was being created at His own utterance. Since we cannot find anywhere in Scripture that God the Father names Himself (but to say 'I AM'), it stands that the naming of Simon bar-Jonah as "Rock" is a moment of Creation which cannot be paralleled by the words used by O.T. authors to describe God (not name Him, since God cannot be named by mere mortals who can never have dominion over Him).

You also might want to reread the Torah and the entire Tanakh for that matter. God spoke to Moses.

Yes. And He told Him his name - "I AM". He didn't say, "My name is up to you to decide." Thus, not being empowered to "name" God, the O.T. authors used descriptive appellation instead. (In similar fashion, man was not entitled to see the Lord God face-to-face because we can neither withstand nor contemplate the essence of God in our fallen natures. As such, the Lord condescended to be visible as a pillar of cloud, or as an "angel of the Lord". Yet no one would suppose that God's essence is properly just a cloud or angelic.) God, on the other hand, does have the authority to take possession of anything He chooses, be it a tribal leader (Abraham), a leader of tribes (Jacob), the His own Word made flesh (Jesus), or the preeminent shepherd of His flock, upon whom He promised to build His Church (Peter).

35 posted on 03/19/2007 12:08:57 PM PDT by Rutles4Ever (Ubi Petrus, ibi ecclesia, et ubi ecclesia vita eterna)
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To: Rutles4Ever; Dr. Eckleburg; Quix; XeniaSt
Sigh, your assertion that the Scriptures are merely inspired except when God is being quoted says mountains about your theology, traditions, magisterium, etc. For many of us, the Scriptures cannot be cherry picked.

Nevertheless, to play the game by your rules of engagement, Moses was given the utterance of the song - Ha'azinu (Deuteronomy 32) - in this command spoken by God:

Now therefore write ye this song for you, and teach it the children of Israel: put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for me against the children of Israel. – Deut 31:19

Such songs are divine in origin --- witness the many songs of David, especially Psalms 22 --- even when uttered by a heathen such as Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 4 when he had received a vision. And note what happened to Herod when he tried to take credit for his oration:

And upon a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat upon his throne, and made an oration unto them. And the people gave a shout, [saying, It is] the voice of a god, and not of a man. And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost. – Acts 12:21-23

Now Moses was facing physical death at the very moment he sang the song because he struck the Rock twice to extract the water for the people of Israel.:

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock: so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink. And Moses took the rod from before the LORD, as he commanded him.

And Moses and Aaron gathered the congregation together before the rock, and he said unto them, Hear now, ye rebels; must we fetch you water out of this rock? And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts [also].

And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them. – Numbers 20:7-12

As with the Temple, the Ark, the Garden of Eden/Paradise, the serpent being lifted up – and here with the Rock and the Water – the physical is a "type" of the spiritual.

Note the "types" here. God is the Rock. Jesus is God with us (Immanuel). The Holy Spirit is the living water.

Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel. And he called the name of the place Massah, and Meribah, because of the chiding of the children of Israel, and because they tempted the LORD, saying, Is the LORD among us, or not?– Exodus 17:6-7

Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. – 1 Cor 10:1-4

For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, [and] hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water. – Jer 2:13

Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. – John 4:10

He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. – John 7:38

These are Spiritual Truths hidden in plain sight. Thus Moses calls all of Creation to witness the song God gave to him as follows:

Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass: Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. [He is] the Rock, his work [is] perfect: for all his ways [are] judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right [is] he. – Deu 32:1-4

We ought to pray and meditate over every word of this. It will be sung in heaven. (Rev)

38 posted on 03/19/2007 1:50:48 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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