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What Really Happened at ''Easter''?
KOINONIA HOUSE ^ | March 2007 | Chuck Missler Ph.D.

Posted on 03/30/2007 4:41:10 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012

What Really Happened at ''Easter''?

Most reasonably informed Christians are well aware that many of the traditions
that surround the Christmas holidays have pagan origins and very little correlation
with the actual events as recorded in the Bible. However, most of us are surprised
when we discover that some of what we have been taught about “Easter”
is not only in error, but deliberately so!

Many, of course, are aware that the name “Easter” actually originates with the
pagan worship of Ishtar (or Astarte) that was traditionally observed at the time
of the vernal equinox, nominally about March 21 or 22. Traditional pagan fertility
symbols of both rabbits and eggs continue to be associated with this holiday.

However, the name as commonly used is also currently associated with the events
surrounding the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, which actually
occurred on the Jewish Passover and is clearly defined in the Scriptures as the 14th of Nisan.

Read more here



TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: easter; godsgravesglyphs; passover
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Easter and Passover have coincided every year since 2000.

The early church sought to hide Passover with their calculations.

But Yah'shua has revealed His Word in these latter days.

b'shem Yah'shua

1 posted on 03/30/2007 4:41:10 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012
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To: XeniaSt
Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket

2 posted on 03/30/2007 4:47:22 PM PDT by Dog Gone
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To: XeniaSt

Thanks for posting this....I'll ignore the idiots


3 posted on 03/30/2007 4:49:22 PM PDT by goodnesswins (We need to cure Academentia)
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To: XeniaSt

Of course there's a connection between Easter and Passover--a typological connection. The Church Fathers and Bible commentators have been making that point for almost 2000 years.

But Jesus was crucified on a Friday afternoon. He and the two thieves were taken down and buried late that afternoon, so as not to violate the Passover Sabbath, which began at sundown that day. And Jesus rose again on the third day, which was a Sunday morning--Easter.

The Last Supper was a kind of Passover meal. But it was celebrated on Thursday night, the evening before the Jews celebrated Passover. Jesus had entered Jerusalem for the Passover, as he had done with his family every year ever since he was a little boy. But presumably anticipating His death on Friday, He celebrated what amounts to the fulfillment of the Passover meal (in Christian eyes) a day early.

Easter also became associated with springtime and the rebirth of life that occurs then. That might be thought pagan, but it is part of the natural cycle of life, as decreed by God in Genesis after the Flood. The religious calendar and the natural agricultural calendar of the seasons are related at several points. And why not, since God created nature?


4 posted on 03/30/2007 4:51:54 PM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: XeniaSt

How long will it take for this thread to be backroomed?

I was raised a certain way, but when I was about 20 or so, I found myself on a different path.

One thing that I have learned over the years is that the counsel of the Bible, (Collosians 2:8 for example) to "beware the traditions of men" does not carry much weight among most folks.


5 posted on 03/30/2007 5:00:42 PM PDT by Radix (Reasonable people often can and do disagree.)
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To: Cicero

Celebrating the proper dates or celebrating on an old pagan holiday never really bothered me. I know what I'm celebrating, I know that reasons therein, and I can take Christian symbolic meaning from traditions that have been co-opted. Aside from personal spiritual meaning, what difference does it make?

Good post.


6 posted on 03/30/2007 5:02:12 PM PDT by CheyennePress
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To: XeniaSt

The Christian church needs to rename the day called Easter. "Resurrection Day" better says it and says it all!


7 posted on 03/30/2007 5:05:04 PM PDT by Doctor Don
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To: Cicero
Setting a Date for Easter

The Council (of Nice) unanimously ruled that the Easter festival
should be celebrated throughout the Christian world on the first
Sunday after the full moon following the vernal equinox; and that
if the full moon should occur on a Sunday, and thereby coincide with
the Passover festival, Easter should be commemorated on the following
Sunday. As a result of the Council of Nicea, and amended by numerous
subsequent meetings, the formal church deliberately attempted to
design a formula for “Easter” which would avoid any possibility of
it falling on the Jewish Passover, even accidentally!

b'shem Yah'shua

8 posted on 03/30/2007 5:12:02 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: XeniaSt
Start of Passover = Sundown Nisan 15, 5767 [Hebrew] = Sundown on Monday, April 2, 2007 [Gregorian]. Passover lasts for either 7 or 8 days, depending on the sect.

Here is the correlation between Gregorian Easter and the first day of Passover, from Gregorian year 2000 through 2009 (ignoring the 1/4 of the Hebrew day that overlaps the previous Gregorian day):

2000:
    Passover: 
        Thu, 5760 Nisan 15 [Hebrew]
        Thu, 2000 April 20
    Easter: April 23, 2000

2001:
    Passover:
	Sun, 5761 Nisan 15 [Hebrew]
	Sun, 2001 April 8
    Easter: April 15, 2001

2002:
    Passover:
	Thu, 5762 Nisan 15 [Hebrew]
	Thu, 2002 March 28
    Easter: March 31, 2002

2003:
    Passover:
	Thu, 5763 Nisan 15 [Hebrew]
	Thu, 2003 April 17
    Easter: April 20, 2003

2004:
    Passover:
	Tue, 5764 Nisan 15 [Hebrew]
	Tue, 2004 April 6
    Easter: April 11, 2004

2005:
    Passover:
	Sun, 5765 Nisan 15 [Hebrew]
	Sun, 2005 April 24
    Easter: March 27, 2005

2006:
    Passover:
	Thu, 5766 Nisan 15 [Hebrew]
	Thu, 2006 April 13
    Easter: April 16, 2006

2007:
    Passover:
	Tue, 5767 Nisan 15 [Hebrew]
	Tue, 2007 April 3
    Easter: April 8, 2007

2008:
    Passover:
	Sun, 5768 Nisan 15 [Hebrew]
	Sun, 2008 April 20
    Easter: March 23, 2008
 
2009:
    Passover:
	Thu, 5769 Nisan 15 [Hebrew]
	Thu, 2009 April 9
    Easter: April 12, 2009

9 posted on 03/30/2007 5:17:47 PM PDT by sourcery (Government Warning: The Attorney General has determined that Federal Regulation is a health hazard)
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To: XeniaSt

I believe that Pope John Paul II tried to get together with the leaders of the Orthodox Churches to settle on a common date for Easter. Should I take it that your screenname is based on St. Xenia, the homeless wanderer of St. Petersburg?

So far, there hasn't been much success, but I don't believe it should be impossible to find some way to do it.

As you suggest, the Jewish Passover is based on a lunar cycle, and to some extent the western date for Easter is, too.


10 posted on 03/30/2007 5:21:41 PM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: XeniaSt
Should we confuse the supposed Biblical experts with inconvenient facts? Few care that the sola scriptura of the Reformation really just exchanged the post-Nicean Roman authority for the pre-Nicean dogma of equally confused "church fathers." When disconnected from the root, the branches tend to think that they are what supports everything.

The history of "easter" is the most documented, and most ignored paganization of the faith and practice of Scripture that ever existed. Most "christians" just unknowingly quote Plato and "spiritualize" their error.

Don't confuse them with the facts. As for me and my house... we will keep the Feast next Monday night. We will eat unleavened bread for seven days... just like our Master did. We remember...
11 posted on 03/30/2007 5:22:17 PM PDT by safisoft (Give me Torah!)
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To: sourcery
Thank you for your research.

Prior to 2000 Easter and Pesach would only coincide 5 or 6 times in 19 years


12 posted on 03/30/2007 5:22:46 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: XeniaSt

Thanks! I believe you are correct....

Some believe Yeshua was crucified on Wednesday, and I am persuaded..

http://ad2004.com/prophecytruths/Articles/Prophecy/3days3nights.html


13 posted on 03/30/2007 5:22:51 PM PDT by fahraint (git theah fuhstest with the mostest)
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To: XeniaSt
I remember when I visited Israel.

I saw lots of churches. One church said it was on the very site where Jesus was born.

Another church said it was on the very site where Jesus was buried.

I remember think that it was not so important to know where exactly Jesus was born or where exactly Jesus was buried.

What was far more important -- to me, anyway -- was to know that Jesus was born and that Jesus died and was buried -- and that he was resurrected.

So, whether Jesus died on a Friday or on a Wednesday, isn't terribly important -- to me, anyway.

14 posted on 03/30/2007 5:30:11 PM PDT by Bob Loblaw
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To: Religion Moderator

Please put this in Religion under worship


15 posted on 03/30/2007 5:42:45 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: XeniaSt
Here is an older thread

Why Should Christians Keep the Passover?


16 posted on 03/30/2007 5:47:54 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: safisoft; XeniaSt
Don't confuse them with the facts."
 
Gosh, who am I to even thinking of suggesting that anyone might consider Googling "Mystery Religion"?
 
Or God forbid, Googling ..."Babylon Mystery Religion"? 
 
Nobody, so I'll just go back about my business.

17 posted on 03/30/2007 7:17:46 PM PDT by Radix (Reasonable people often can and do disagree.)
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To: Cicero
XS>Constantine as the first Pontiff of the Roman church condemned Passover where Yah'shua celebrated with bread and wine and replaced it with the pagan Easter.

The Roman Office of the Pontifex Maximus began in 712 BC

Later all Roman Emperors held the title Pontifex Maximus.

Emperor Constantine held the title from 306 to 337 AD

Constantine convened the Nicene Council in 325 AD and issued this edict:

ON THE KEEPING OF EASTER.

From the Letter of the Emperor to all those not present at the Council.
(Found in Eusebius, Vita Const., Lib. iii., 18-20.)

When the question relative to the sacred festival of Easter arose, it was
universally thought that it would be convenient that all should keep the
feast on one day; for what could be more beautiful and more desirable,
than to see this festival, through which we receive the hope of
immortality, celebrated by all with one accord, and in the same
manner? It was declared to be particularly unworthy for this, the
holiest of all festivals, to follow the custom [the calculation] of the
Jews, who had soiled their hands with the most fearful of crimes, and
whose minds were blinded. In rejecting their custom,(1) we may
transmit to our descendants the legitimate mode of celebrating Easter,
which we have observed from the time of the Saviour's Passion to the
present day[according to the day of the week].
We ought not,
therefore, to have anything in common with the Jews, for the Saviour
has shown us another way; our worship follows a more legitimate and
more convenient course(the order of the days of the week); and
consequently, in unanimously adopting this mode, we desire, dearest
brethren, to separate ourselves from the detestable company of the
Jews, for it is truly shameful for us to hear them boast that without
their direction we could not keep this feast. How can they be in the
right, they who, after the death of the Saviour, have no longer been led
by reason but by wild violence, as their delusion may urge them? They
do not possess the truth in this Easter question; for, in their blindness
and repugnance to all improvements, they frequently celebrate two
passovers in the same year. We could not imitate those who are openly
in error. How, then, could we follow these Jews, who are most
certainly blinded by error? for to celebrate the passover twice in one
year is totally inadmissible. But even if this were not so, it would still
be your duty not to tarnish your soul by communications with such
wicked people[the Jews]. Besides, consider well, that in such an
important matter, and on a subject of such great solemnity, there ought
not to be any division. Our Saviour has left us only one festal day of
our redemption, that is to say, of his holy passion, and he desired[to
establish] only one Catholic Church. Think, then, how unseemly it is,
that on the same day some should be fasting whilst others are seated
at a banquet; and that after Easter, some should be rejoicing at feasts,
whilst others are still observing a strict fast. For this reason, a Divine
Providence wills that this custom should be rectified and regulated in a
uniform way; and everyone, I hope, will agree upon this point. As, on
the one hand, it is our duty not to have anything in common with the
murderers of our Lord; and as, on the other, the custom now followed
by the Churches of the West, of the South, and of
the North, and by some of those of the East, is the most acceptable, it
has appeared good to all; and I have been guarantee for your consent,
that you would accept it with joy, as it is followed at Rome, in Africa,
in all Italy, Egypt, Spain, Gaul, Britain, Libya, in all Achaia, and in the
dioceses of Asia, of Pontus, and Cilicia. You should consider not only
that the number of churches in these provinces make a majority, but
also that it is right to demand what our reason approves, and that we
should have nothing in common with the Jews. To sum up in few
words: By the unanimous judgment of all, it has been decided that the
most holy festival of Easter should be everywhere celebrated on one
and the same day, and it is not seemly that in so holy a thing there
should be any division. As this is the state of the case, accept joyfully
the divine favour, and this truly divine command;
for all which takes
place in assemblies of the bishops ought to be regarded as proceeding
from the will of God. Make known to your brethren what has been
decreed, keep this most holy day according to the prescribed mode; we
can thus celebrate this holy Easter day at the same time, if it is granted
me, as I desire, to unite myself with you; we can rejoice together,
seeing that the divine power has made use of our instrumentality for
destroying the evil designs of the devil
, and thus causing faith, peace,
and unity to flourish amongst us. May God graciously protect you, my
beloved brethren.

from DOCUMENTS FROM THE FIRST COUNCIL OF NICEA [THE FIRST ECUMENICAL COUNCIL] A.D. 325

This is the Decree from the first Pontiff of the Roman church to all the world.

Emperor Constantine, Emperor of the Roman Empire

He had issued an Edict making Sunday the day of rest

In 321 CE, while a Pagan sun-worshiper, the Emperor Constantine
declared that Sunday was to be a day of rest throughout the Roman Empire:

"On the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest,
and let all workshops be closed. In the country however persons engaged in agriculture
may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits because it often happens that another day
is not suitable for gain-sowing or vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment
for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost."
Council of Laodicea circa 364 CE ordered that religious observances were
to be conducted on Sunday, not Saturday. Sunday became the new Sabbath.

They ruled: "Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday, but shall work on that day."

b'shem Y'shua
18 posted on 03/30/2007 7:36:41 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: XeniaSt
Man, no one wants to read this Judaizer bunk.

2 things: Just because some Christian symbol or rite is similar to something that was or is pagan does not mean that it too is pagan. I mean, it's just basic logic. Buddhists might use incense. It doesn't mean that Catholics are Buddhists because we use incense.

Simply put, Easter celebrates Christ. It celebrates no one else.

Second, the whole eymology argument against Easter is silly. It's called Pascha or something similar in most languages other than English.
19 posted on 03/30/2007 8:53:04 PM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: Conservative til I die
May the Lord bless you and keep you:
The Lord make his Face shine upon you:
and be gracious to you:
The Lord lift up His countenance upon you,
and give you peace.
b'shem Yah'shua

20 posted on 03/30/2007 9:01:46 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: Conservative til I die

And it's been a memorial of Christ's resurrection first and foremost among Christians since anybody thought to write about it.

We can tell it is early from the controversies that arose over which day to celebrate it: Always on a Sunday, or on a fixed day of the Roman Calender, or on the 14th of Nissan, whenever that would fall. A summary of the early controversies:

The first was mainly concerned with the lawfulness of celebrating Easter on a weekday. We read in Eusebius (Hist. Eccl., V, xxiii): "A question of no small importance arose at that time [i.e. the time of Pope Victor, about A.D. 190]. The dioceses of all Asia, as from an older tradition, held that the fourteenth day of the moon, on which day the Jews were commanded to sacrifice the lamb, should always be observed as the feast of the life-giving pasch [epi tes tou soteriou Pascha heortes], contending that the fast ought to end on that day, whatever day of the week it might happen to be. However it was not the custom of the churches in the rest of the world to end it at this point, as they observed the practice, which from Apostolic tradition has prevailed to the present time, of terminating the fast on no other day than on that of the Resurrection of our Saviour. Synods and assemblies of bishops were held on this account, and all with one consent through mutual correspondence drew up an ecclesiastical decree that the mystery of the Resurrection of the Lord should be celebrated on no other day but the Sunday and that we should observe the close of the paschal fast on that day only." These words of the Father of Church History, followed by some extracts which he makes from the controversial letters of the time, tell us almost all that we know concerning the paschal controversy in its first stage. A letter of St. Irenæus is among the extracts just referred to, and this shows that the diversity of practice regarding Easter had existed at least from the time of Pope Sixtus (c. 120). Further, Irenaeus states that St. Polycarp, who like the other Asiatics, kept Easter on the fourteenth day of the moon, whatever day of the week that might be, following therein the tradition which he claimed to have derived from St. John the Apostle, came to Rome c. 150 about this very question, but could not be persuaded by Pope Anicetus to relinquish his Quartodeciman observance. Nevertheless he was not debarred from communion with the Roman Church, and St. Irenæus, while condemning the Quartodeciman practice, nevertheless reproaches Pope Victor (c. 189-99) with having excommunicated the Asiatics too precipitately and with not having followed the moderation of his predecessors. The question thus debated was therefore primarily whether Easter was to be kept on a Sunday, or whether Christians should observe the Holy Day of the Jews, the fourteenth of Nisan, which might occur on any day of the week. Those who kept Easter with the Jews were called Quartodecimans or terountes (observants); but even in the time of Pope Victor this usage hardly extended beyond the churches of Asia Minor. After the pope's strong measures the Quartodecimans seem to have gradually dwindled away. Origen in the "Philosophumena" (VIII, xviii) seems to regard them as a mere handful of wrong-headed nonconformists.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05228a.htm

You can't tell me that St. Polycarp, who was raised Christan and knew St. John was busy celebrating a pagan holiday as the resurrection of Jesus.

And as you note, all arguments based on the English word for the holiday are a red herring, since the word in nearly every other language comes from Pesach. Can't help it if the English had to be non-conformist here, but Polycarp, Iraneus, and such didn't speak English, and didn't call it Easter. For them and those who followed, the holiday was first and foremost the anniversary of the resurrection of Jesus.

The fact of all these controversies is further proof of how important it was to these church leaders. All the spring symbols that would cluster around the holiday fail in comparison to what always was foremost and most central to Easter: Jesus' death and glorious resurrection. Unlike Christmas, which is a commemoration, Easter has always been an anniversary, one which heralds the dawning of our salvation. Alleluia!


21 posted on 03/30/2007 9:26:22 PM PDT by Knitting A Conundrum (Act Justly, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly With God Micah 6:8)
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To: Knitting A Conundrum

A question that might be asked is how Passover came to be celebrated in the Spring.


22 posted on 03/30/2007 10:06:57 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: RobbyS
A question that might be asked is how Passover came to be celebrated in the Spring

Because YHvH commanded it to be so in His Holy Word.

23 posted on 03/30/2007 10:15:18 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: All

I've been thinking about this thread off and on through the evening.

The more I think about it the less I care where the bunnies came from or even which day we set aside to particularly remember the sacrifice and miracle.

I wonder how Jesus would feel if he had known that instead of setting aside our differences to celebrate coming to God through His sacrifice that Christians would argue for centuries over the details. Even the greatest schism in Christian history, with East and West excommunicating each other happened over a dispute of Easter's date and how much to acknowledge the connection with Passover.

Well, Jesus would probably understand the human condition and forgive, but that doesn't mean we can't work to do better.

I think I'm going to find a local church that celebrates Easter differently and make a point to visit on their Easter to better appreciate my fellow Christians.


24 posted on 03/31/2007 12:09:32 AM PDT by gondramB (It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark.)
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To: safisoft

>>Should we confuse the supposed Biblical experts with inconvenient facts? Few care that the sola scriptura of the Reformation really just exchanged the post-Nicean Roman authority for the pre-Nicean dogma of equally confused "church fathers." When disconnected from the root, the branches tend to think that they are what supports everything.<<

I felt kind of confused about this paragraph - I see you are drawing a parallel between the reformation and the Council of Nicaea. Are you saying they were both futile because church leaders are human?


25 posted on 03/31/2007 12:36:45 AM PDT by gondramB (It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark.)
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To: XeniaSt; RobbyS

>>A question that might be asked is how Passover came to be celebrated in the Spring



Because YHvH commanded it to be so in His Holy Word.<<


There is a real symmetry to it. Creation of man on the first of Nisan, Passover and the resurection on the 15th. Perhaps the return will come on the 30th.


26 posted on 03/31/2007 12:46:18 AM PDT by gondramB (It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark.)
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To: XeniaSt

Chuck Missler? Isn't he the guy who was caught stealing passages from someone? Didn't he steal from Edwin Yamaguchi?

Missler in "Magog Invasion" (1995) (p. 51): "The name Scythian designates a number of nomadic tribes from the Russian steppes, one group of which invaded the Near east in the 8th and 7th centuries B.C. After being repulsed from Media, many of the later Scyths settled in the fertile area of the Ukrain north of the Black Sea. Other related tribes occupied the area to the east of the Caspian sea."

Yamaguchi in "Foes from the Northern Frontier" (1982) (pp. 63-64): "The name Scythian designates a number of nomadic tribes from the Russian steppes, one group of which invaded the Near east in the eighth and seventh centuries B.C. After being repulsed from Media, many of the later Scyths settled in the fertile area of the Ukrain north of the Black Sea. Other related tribes occupied the area to the east of the Caspian sea."

Missler in "Magog Invasion" (p. 54): "Herodotus indicates that the Scythians were active in Media southwest of Lake Urmia. It is also evident in the Assyrian texts that the Scythians were active directly south of the lake. A spectacular discovery of treasure of Ziwiye in this area now offers corroborative evidence of the Herodotus accounts."

"Ziwiye is 25 miles east of Modern Sakkea in Kurdistan in northwest Iran. The name Ziwiye may preserve the Akkadian name Zibie (Izibie), a site attacked by Sargon II in 716 and by Ashurbanipal in about 665."

Yamaguchi in "Foes from the Northern Frontier" (1982) (pp. 72-73): "Herodotus indicates that the Scythians were active in Media southwest of Lake Urmia. It is also evident in the Assyrian texts that the Scythians were present in Mannean territory directly south of the lake. (See maps 4 and 6.) A spectacular discovery of treasure of Ziwiye in this area now offers corroborative evidence of the Scythian presence."

"Ziwiye is located 25 miles east of Modern Sakkea in Kurdistan in northwest Iran. The name Ziwiye may preserve the Akkadian name Zibie (Izibie), a site attacked by Sargon II in 716 and by Ashurbanipal in about 665."

The Calvary Chapel Frequently Unanswered Questions page has more examples of Missler's cheating!

Also, wasn't Missler one of those nuts who got all worked up about Y2K? Poof! Nothing happened.


27 posted on 03/31/2007 4:00:06 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: gondramB
I see you are drawing a parallel between the reformation and the Council of Nicaea. Are you saying they were both futile because church leaders are human?

The parallel was in the "church fathers" before and after the Nicean Council. The Reformists, in their attempt to be "more authentic" (sola scriptura) said they took their cues from the Scriptures only, and yet they repeatedly drew from the ante-Nicean "church fathers" - they were unsuccessful in finding the truly authentic, because they continued the error that they accused the Roman ante-Nicean "church fathers" of - they remained disconnected from the root.

Without exception, the Reformists, noble in motive, remained largely anti-Semitic. No one in that day considered that they were detached from the root. Judaism is the root. By continuing to dispise all things Jewish, from the Leviticus 23 Feast days to the weekly seventh day Sabbath, to the "Jewish Law", they were unable to get past the anti-Nicean "church fathers" bias against Jews. Scan this thread and you can see it still exists. We are called "Judaizers" a term that does not exist in Scripture - and anti-Semitic word invented by the anti-Semite Marcion. I am a want to be more like my Master, Who was and is a Jew, and lived and lives like a Jew. For that I am called a "Judaizer?"

Though laudable, the Reformation did not reform enough. "Christianity" was a religion that did not exist in the First Century. Almost every seminary teaches this when they teach that to understand the New Testament theology, we must study what the Second Century "church fathers" formulated - because the disciples/apostles were too close to the events of Jesus' death and resurrection to have "figured out" all the intricacies.

Ironically, Paul, the one that many consider to be the formulator of much "Christian" theology, was the most rabbinically trained of them all. He remained a Pharisee till the end of his life (Acts 28). Apparently no one reads Acts chapters 21 through 28 and asks the question, "What religion did Paul consider himself a part of?"
28 posted on 03/31/2007 5:17:00 AM PDT by safisoft (Give me Torah!)
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To: XeniaSt

Thanks for posting this. Is there some reason that Easter could not have been standardized as the first Sunday after the Jewish Passover [Nissan 14] in order to maintain their historical/religious connection?


29 posted on 03/31/2007 5:51:50 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: safisoft

Thank you very much for that clarification and expansion.

You make a number of good points - There is a saying in my family that says when a boy rebels against his father he becomes more like his grandfather. I guess I shouldn't be surprised it happens in the larger human family.

I ran into some posters on another board who said Jesus wasn't Jewish because the bible clearly says he was a Hebrew. When I told some friends about it expecting them to be shocked they instead showed a site for the "Jesus was not Jewish" crowd that claimed the original Hebrews were white and that they became the Christians and founded Britain. Then, they claim, the dark skinned Jews snuck into Israel and stole the name "Hebrew."

I don't understand how a person could read the bible and not understand the children of Abraham are a chosen people of God and much loved and that we have much in common. Baffling.


30 posted on 03/31/2007 6:10:17 AM PDT by gondramB (It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark.)
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To: Knitting A Conundrum; Diego1618
Thanks for your link. I didn't know that Polycarp was a Quartodeciman.

Here is what I don't understand about the Quartodeciman position and perhaps someone could enlighten me: Why would they think that Easter should be celebrated on Passover [Nissan 14]? Afterall, Jesus was not resurrected on the Nissan 14th but three full days and nights later on Nissan 18th.

It seems to me that the reasonable historical position would be to celebrate Passover on Nissan 14th and then Resurrection Day [Easter] on either Nissan 18th or the following Sunday, if preferred.

31 posted on 03/31/2007 6:58:57 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: XeniaSt

Well, it appears in "Numbers." The fact remains that it is tied to the natural rhythms of the seasons, just like the two other major feasts for which the people were commanded to make pilgrimage. God is also the god of the seasons.


32 posted on 03/31/2007 8:12:03 AM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: Uncle Chip

You can observe passover if you are Jewish, but for Christians, the Lord's Passover is in fact what happened on between Holy Thursday and Easter.


33 posted on 03/31/2007 8:17:17 AM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: RobbyS
You can observe passover if you are Jewish, but for Christians, the Lord's Passover is in fact what happened on between Holy Thursday and Easter.

Actually the Lord's Passover is what happened on Nissan 14th 30 AD on a Wednesday --- not Thursday or Friday. Otherwise there would not have been three days and three nights between the Crucifixion and the Resurrection.

And Easter Sunday of that week [Nissan 18th] was the Jewish Feast of First Fruits --- coinciding with the Resurrection. So no matter how hard theologians try to avoid it, the Jewish roots are the determining factor of Holy Week and cannot be avoided.

34 posted on 03/31/2007 8:47:08 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Uncle Chip

You are speculating about the dates. For on thing, "Third Day" does not necessarily mean an interval of at least 72 hours.


35 posted on 03/31/2007 9:00:28 AM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: RobbyS

How many days is "three days and three nights"?


36 posted on 03/31/2007 9:03:20 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: gondramB
I ran into some posters on another board who said Jesus wasn't Jewish because the bible clearly says he was a Hebrew. When I told some friends about it expecting them to be shocked they instead showed a site for the "Jesus was not Jewish" crowd that claimed the original Hebrews were white and that they became the Christians and founded Britain. Then, they claim, the dark skinned Jews snuck into Israel and stole the name "Hebrew

Part of what they said is true but not all. Jesus was Jewish. He was of the tribe of Judah and Levi, which made Him King of Kings and Lord of Lords - He was of the King line, Judah, and the Priest line, Levi.

All 12 tribes are Hebrew. Only the tribe of Judah are Jews. 10 of the tribes split from Judah and Benjamine long before the birth of Christ. They were taken into captivity and eventually migrated over the Caucus Mountains and settled Europe then later England and America. They are referred to as the 10 lost tribes.

Many don't make a distinction between the House of Judah and the House of Israel (the house of Israel are the 10 lost tribes). They are referred to as such in the Bible and it would be difficult to understand prophecy if we didn't realize the difference. The Nation of Israel wasn't founded until 1948 and that is not who the Bible speaks of when it references Israel in prophecy.

The children of Abraham are a chosen people but "only through Isaac is the seed called". Remember Abraham also had a son, Ishmael, with Hagar, the Egyptian maid of Abraham's wife Sarah.

Through Ishmael are the Arab nations of today. In Gen.16:12 God told Hagar what her son would be like, and it holds to this day:

And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

Isn't it amazing to read God's Word from the beginning and see it coming true today?

37 posted on 03/31/2007 11:09:08 AM PDT by Ping-Pong
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To: safisoft; XeniaSt
My family will join you in observing Passover.

Some think it not important to keep the correct date as long as they know that it is Christ's resurrection they honor but God certainly cares.

Think of His plan from the beginning. Christ was crucified where long before Abraham placed his son Isaac to be crucified. Christ wore a crown of thorns while God provided Abraham a sacrifice that was caught in thorns. The Passover, to mark the angel of death passing over their houses because of blood on their door - Christ became our Passover and His blood makes the death angel passover us. Christ became the lamb on Passover for us - not the easter bunny on Ishtar, with eggs from a fertility rite which were originally colored with blood from children slain on an altar.

It matters.

To God it is an abomination and He lets us know in Ezekiel 8:
14....There say women weeping for Tammuz.
(Tammuz was Ishtar's son who was killed by a wild boar and the people had to give up their happiness for 40 days and weep for him - ham on easter & lent)
15........and thou shalt see greater abominations than these
16.And He brought me into the inner court of the LORD's house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.
(Easter sunrise service)
18.Therefore will I also deal in fury; Mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity; and though they cry in Mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them.

The day matters to Father.

38 posted on 03/31/2007 11:35:34 AM PDT by Ping-Pong
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To: Ping-Pong
The children of Abraham are a chosen people but "only through Isaac is the seed called".
Remember Abraham also had a son, Ishmael, with Hagar, the Egyptian maid of Abraham's wife Sarah.

Through Ishmael are the Arab nations of today. In Gen.16:12
God told Hagar what her son would be like, and it holds to this day:

And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man,
and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

Isn't it amazing to read God's Word from the beginning and see it coming true today?

37 posted on 03/31/2007 12:09:08 PM MDT by Ping-Pong

Upon closer reading, Ishmael was conceived by Abram
with man's will and planning, but later Elohim changed
Abram's name by inserting the breath of Elohim into
his name by adding a Hey at the end.

Elohim also changed Sarai's name to Sarah by breathing
the breath of Elohim in to her and causing her to conceive Isaac.

b'shem Yah'shua
39 posted on 03/31/2007 11:47:02 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: Ping-Pong
The day matters to Father.

Amain and Amain

May the Lord bless you and keep you:
The Lord make his Face shine upon you:
and be gracious to you:
The Lord lift up His countenance upon you,
and give you peace.

b'shem Yah'shua


40 posted on 03/31/2007 11:50:49 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: Uncle Chip; RobbyS

And Easter Sunday of that week [Nissan 18th] was the Jewish Feast of First Fruits --- coinciding with the Resurrection. So no matter how hard theologians try to avoid it, the Jewish roots are the determining factor of Holy Week and cannot be avoided.

34 posted on 03/31/2007 9:47:08 AM MDT by Uncle Chip

Many believe Easter sunday happened on the 17th of Nissan
on the Feast of First Fruits as you say,
but they look back to Genesis 8:4
Genesis 8:4 and on the seventeenth day of the seventh month
the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat.
The seventh month from Rosh Hananah
would be the month of Nissan. The seventeenth
of Nissan would be the New Beginnings for mankind.

Again !

b'shem Yah'shua
41 posted on 03/31/2007 12:09:08 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: RobbyS
Well, it appears in "Numbers." The fact remains that it is tied to the natural rhythms of the seasons, just like the two other major feasts for which the people were commanded to make pilgrimage. God is also the god of the seasons.

32 posted on 03/31/2007 9:12:03 AM MDT by RobbyS

More information on the Feast's commanded by Elohim can be found here:

b'shem Yah'shua
42 posted on 03/31/2007 12:20:09 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: XeniaSt
Genesis 8:4 and on the seventeenth day of the seventh month the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat.

The seventeenth would make sense for the following Saturday [the Sabbath] as it was a day of rest.

Thus Sunday the eighteenth would be the day of arising from that rest ---- per Leviticus 23:11: "the next day after the sabbath" aka the feast of first fruits.

43 posted on 03/31/2007 12:38:06 PM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Uncle Chip
OK; that works.

44 posted on 03/31/2007 12:54:16 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: Uncle Chip; XeniaSt
Actually the Lord's Passover is what happened on Nissan 14th 30 AD on a Wednesday --- not Thursday or Friday. Otherwise there would not have been three days and three nights between the Crucifixion and the Resurrection.

This is true and much to the consternation of the Romans is absolutely identified as such by [Matthew 12:40] for, as Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights, so shall the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. And this is backed up by [Mark 8:31] and began to teach them, that it behoveth the Son of Man to suffer many things, and to be rejected by the elders, and chief priests, and scribes, and to be killed, and after three days to rise again; After Three days indicates at least 72 Hours.

[Matthew 27:63] saying, 'Sir, we have remembered that that deceiver said while yet living, After three days I do rise. Here again scripture verifies that it would be at least 72 Hours.

Now, [Mark 9:31] tells us something else....that it would not be more that 72 hours: for he was teaching his disciples, and he said to them, 'The Son of Man is being delivered to the hands of men, and they shall kill him, and having been killed the third day he shall rise. Being killed the third day says, at least 48 hours....but no more than 72.

And finally we are told in [John 2:19] that is is again something between 48 and 72 hours: Jesus answered and said to them, 'Destroy this sanctuary, and in three days I will raise it up."

So.....as usual, when the word of God says something.... it means just that! Three days and three nights and anything else is conjecture.

Passover 30 A.D.

The Sabbath spoken of in [Leviticus 23:7] is the Sabbath beginning the count of the Omer....(verse 15), not the weekly Sabbath. The First Sabbath of Unleavened Bread fell on Thursday that year so Pentecost would have been fifty days later....on a Friday.

The body was entombed right before sunset [Luke 23:50-54] And lo, a man, by name Joseph, being a counsellor, a man good and righteous, he was not consenting to their counsel and deed -- from Arimathea, a city of the Jews, who also himself was expecting the reign of God, he, having gone near to Pilate, asked the body of Jesus, And having taken it down, he wrapped it in fine linen, and placed it in a tomb hewn out, where no one was yet laid. And the day was a preparation, and sabbath was approaching. The preparation day was the 14th and the Sabbath approaching was the First Sabbath of Unleavened Bread....a Thursday! Note the calendar.

This Sabbath is the same Sabbath spoken of in [Mark 16:1] I'm going to include the entire phrase from [Mark 15:42-47] so you can see how the narrative flows. And now evening having come, seeing it was the preparation, that is, the fore-sabbath, Joseph of Arimathea, an honourable counsellor, who also himself was waiting for the reign of God, came, boldly entered in unto Pilate, and asked the body of Jesus. And Pilate wondered if he were already dead, and having called near the centurion, did question him if he were long deadand having known [it] from the centurion, he granted the body to Joseph. And he, having brought fine linen, and having taken him down, wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre that had been hewn out of a rock, and he rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre,and Mary the Magdalene, and Mary of Joses, were beholding where he is laid. And the sabbath having past, Mary the Magdalene, and Mary of James, and Salome, bought spices, that having come, they may anoint him. The last sentence, of course is [Mark 16:1] and because of traditional chapter and verse (not divinely inspired) many folks have had a misunderstanding that this Sabbath being mentioned here was the Saturday Sabbath. Not True! It is the same Sabbath spoken of in the earlier referenced passage of Luke.

It is also the same Sabbath mentioned by the Apostle John when he says in [John 19:31] The Jews, therefore, that the bodies might not remain on the cross on the sabbath, since it was the preparation, (for that sabbath day was a great one,) asked of Pilate that their legs may be broken, and they taken away. A great Sabbath means an annual Sabbath (Thursday)....not the weekly Saturday Sabbath.

The body, being placed in the tomb right before sunset on a Wednesday would be resurrected right before sunset on Saturday....72 hours later as we have shown from scripture. Matthew confirms this in [Matthew 28:1] And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre. On the eve of the Sabbaths (weekly Sabbath and first Sabbath in the count of the Omer to Pentecost....thus the plural) would be shortly before sundown on the Sabbath. Verse 6 says: [Matthew 28:6] He is not here, for He rose, as He said; come, see the place where the Lord was lying. The angel is telling the women this late on the Sabbath afternoon....72 hours after Our Lord had been entombed on the previous day of preparation, Wednesday.

All scriptures quoted have been from "Young's Literal Translation".

45 posted on 03/31/2007 2:33:19 PM PDT by Diego1618
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To: Knitting A Conundrum
You can't tell me that St. Polycarp, who was raised Christan and knew St. John was busy celebrating a pagan holiday as the resurrection of Jesus.

You're right....he wasn't. Polycrates of Ephesus....disciple of Polycarp

He celebrated the Passover, as did most everyone one else in the early Church.....and he celebrated it on the 14th of Nisan. Christians should all continue celebrating this Holy Feast Day of The Lord.

46 posted on 03/31/2007 2:57:58 PM PDT by Diego1618
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To: Diego1618
Well Said. That's a great link. Too bad it doesn't go back to the BC years. There are a couple dates there I would like to check.

One thing though: the Jews in Jesus' day referred to the day after Passover as a "Sabbath" or a "mega Sabbath", also known as an "extra Sabbath" for that week. However, in truth, according to Leviticus 23, that day was really called a "holy convocation", to distinguish it from the Sabbath or seventh day of the week that came afterward.

Thus the 15th was the "holy convocation" that began the feast of unleavened bread [Thursday]. The 17th was the Sabbath of that week [Saturday]. The feast of first fruits per Leviticus 23:11 was the next day after the Sabbath of that week [Sunday]. And Pentecost was seven sabbaths later ---- on a Sunday not a Friday.

47 posted on 04/01/2007 4:58:59 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Uncle Chip
That's a great link. Too bad it doesn't go back to the BC years. There are a couple dates there I would like to check.

Yeah....you and me both! I understand that the earlier years are in the works....just don't know when they'll be out.

Josephus

Josephus was a Pharisee...as Paul, Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea.... and it was their position that the count of the "Omer" began the day after the first Sabbath of Unleavened. If you refer back to my calendar in post #45 you will see that this Sabbath fell on a Thursday. The second Sabbath of Unleavened fell seven days later on a Wednesday. The Sadducees held that the Sabbath in question was Saturday but as you can see by reading Josephus , Book III, Chapter X, Paragraph 5....that is incorrect: In the month of Xanthicus, which is by us called Nisan, and is the beginning of our year, on the fourteenth day of the lunar month, when the sun is in Aries, (for in this month it was that we were delivered from bondage under the Egyptians,) the law ordained that we should every year slay that sacrifice which I before told you we slew when we came out of Egypt, and which was called the Passover; and so we do celebrate this passover in companies, leaving nothing of what we sacrifice till the day following. The feast of unleavened bread succeeds that of the passover, and falls on the fifteenth day of the month, and continues seven days, wherein they feed on unleavened bread; on every one of which days two bulls are killed, and one ram, and seven lambs. Now these lambs are entirely burnt, besides the kid of the goats which is added to all the rest, for sins; for it is intended as a feast for the priest on every one of those days. But on the second day of unleavened bread, which is the sixteenth day of the month, they first partake of the fruits of the earth, for before that day they do not touch them. And while they suppose it proper to honor God, from whom they obtain this plentiful provision, in the first place, they offer the first-fruits of their barley, and that in the manner following: They take a handful of the ears, and dry them, then beat them small, and purge the barley from the bran; they then bring one tenth deal to the altar, to God; and, casting one handful of it upon the fire, they leave the rest for the use of the priest. And after this it is that they may publicly or privately reap their harvest. They also at this participation of the first-fruits of the earth, sacrifice a lamb, as a burnt-offering to God

By reading [Leviticus 23:4-11] you will see that the Sabbath on which the sheaf is waved is the sixteenth as confirmed by Josephus. Verse 16, in the Hebrew, reads "Weeks" but is sometimes incorrectly referred to as Sabbaths. That is why "Shavuot" (Pentecost) is called the Feast of Weeks. It occurs seven weeks (fifty days) after the first Sabbath of Unleavened. All Hebrew Feast Days were regulated by the Lunar phases and fell on different days of the weekly cycle from year to year.

Another confusing issue in some peoples minds is that "Passover" (the 14th) is itself....not a Sabbath. It is called the day of Preparation. The Sabbaths the year Our Lord died were on the 15th and the 21st, as they fall every year. It later became generally common to call the entire eight day affair....simply....Passover.

[Matthew 23:1-3] Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples. Saying The scribes and the Pharisees, sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

In other words.....they were hypocrites!

48 posted on 04/01/2007 9:53:24 AM PDT by Diego1618
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To: Diego1618; Uncle Chip
By reading [Leviticus 23:4-11] you will see that the Sabbath on which the sheaf is waved is the sixteenth as confirmed by Josephus.

This should say...."The day on which the sheaf is waved"...

49 posted on 04/01/2007 11:48:13 AM PDT by Diego1618
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To: Diego1618
I would love to ask Josephus to read Leviticus 23 and explain why the Jews were not keeping the feasts according to the Leviticus 23 Law of Moses.

For one thing they began the feast of unleavened bread before the Passover which was incorrect [Mark 14;12, Mt 26:17, Luke 22;7]. The day of Preparation was supposed to be the 13th not the 14th. And the Passover lamb was to be killed and eaten on the beginning of the 14th day [at evening] but they were eating theirs at the end of the day of the 14th and beginning of the 15th.

And the first day of unleavened bread was a "miqra" [convocation] not a "sabbath" and the feast of first fruits was supposed to be celebrated the next day after the first sabbath [Saturday] after Passover --- not after the next day after the miqra.

Clearly by their traditions they had made the word of God of no effect as related even to the Passover.

50 posted on 04/01/2007 11:50:19 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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