Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Is the Pretribulation Rapture Biblical?
Reformedonline.com ^ | Unknown | Brian M. Schwertley

Posted on 04/02/2007 8:40:21 AM PDT by topcat54

Conclusion

Although the pretribulation rapture theory is very popular today, given arguments that are offered in support of this doctrine we must declare Pretribulationalism to be contrary to the clear teachings of Scripture. Simply put, there is not one shred of evidence that can be found in the Bible to support the pretribulation rapture. The typical Pretribulational arguments offered reveal a pattern: of imposing one’s presuppositions onto a text without any exegetical justification whatsoever; of finding subtle meaning between words and/or phrases that were never intended by the author; of spiritualizing or ignoring passages that contradict the Pretribulational paradigm; and, of imposing Pretribulationalism upon passages that actually teach the unity of the eschatological complex (i.e., the rapture, second coming, general resurrection, and general judgment all occur on the same day—the day of the Lord). It is our hope and prayer that professing Christians would cast off this escapist fantasy and return to the task of personal sanctification and godly dominion.

(Excerpt) Read more at reformedonline.com ...


TOPICS: Theology
KEYWORDS: eschatology; leftbehind; pretrib; rapture; tribulation
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-150151-200 ... 551-594 next last

1 posted on 04/02/2007 8:40:22 AM PDT by topcat54
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: topcat54
Is the Pretribulation Rapture Biblical?

No.
2 posted on 04/02/2007 8:41:18 AM PDT by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: topcat54

Why do you insist upon false teaching?


3 posted on 04/02/2007 8:43:19 AM PDT by Cvengr
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ItsOurTimeNow; HarleyD; suzyjaruki; nobdysfool; jkl1122; Calvinist_Dark_Lord; Dr. Eckleburg; ...
Reformed Eschatology Ping List (REPL)


4 posted on 04/02/2007 8:44:08 AM PDT by topcat54
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: kawaii

Pretribulation, premillenial is Scriptural.


5 posted on 04/02/2007 8:44:50 AM PDT by Cvengr
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: kawaii

You took the word right out of my mouth! LOL!


6 posted on 04/02/2007 8:45:30 AM PDT by Salvation (" With God all things are possible. ")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Cvengr
Why do you insist upon false teaching?

I'm sure the pharisees asked Jesus a similar question, and the Judaizers inquired as much of Paul.

7 posted on 04/02/2007 8:46:01 AM PDT by topcat54
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

Comment #8 Removed by Moderator

To: Blogger
[Moved to new rapture thread.]

There is nothing in Scripture that states how far in advance of the Tribulation the rapture happens.

Well, this is a new one. So you believe the church could be secretly ratured and the tribulation not happen for another month, hundred years, thousadnd years, ...?

Therefore the "signs" which you apparently seem to think might be happening may be no signs at all, and are, perhaps, inherently untrustworhy, not even worth talking about?

9 posted on 04/02/2007 8:51:27 AM PDT by topcat54
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Cvengr
Pick up a copy of Dwight Pentecost's "Things to Come".

On Pentecost and his technique:

Since dispensationalists understand the basic issue to be hermeneutics, they typically include long discussions of the interpretation of prophecy in their books on eschatology.[3] Dispensational premillennialists argue that amillennialists and postmillennialists use a method of interpretation that forces a non-literal meaning on what is intended by the Bible to be literal. J. Dwight Pentecost goes so far as to say, "The reason a non-literal method of interpretation is adopted is, almost without exception, because of a desire to avoid the obvious interpretation of the passage. The desire to bring the teaching of Scripture into harmony with some predetermined system of doctrine instead of bringing doctrine into harmony with the Scriptures has kept the method alive."[4]

Pentecost's statement reflects the dispensational prejudice that non-dispensationalists use a non-literal and, therefore, dishonest method of interpreting Scripture. But what about dispensationalists? Do they really interpret "literally"? When a well-known dispensational Bible teacher of a previous generation, Louis S. Bauman, named socialism, communism, and fascism as the "three unclean spirits like frogs" of Revelation 16:13, was he interpreting literally?[5] How literal is it to say, as John F. Walvoord cautiously suggests, that the apostle John's description of an army of horsemen in Revelation 9:16-19 refers to modern warfare?[6] A popular premillennial teacher in the early part of this century even announced the year for the beginning of the literal fulfillment of Revelation -- 1925![7] More recently a best-selling book by a dispensational author proved by no less than 88 literal reasons that the rapture must occur in 1988. When the rapture didn't occur, the same author then proved that the rapture would occur in 1989.[8] (Don't hold your breath for his next best-selling book!) Dispensational commentary on prophecy abounds with examples of non-literal and, too often, non-sensical interpretation. The point is dispensationalists do not really practice "literal" interpretation.

Taken from Interpreting Prophecy

Pentecost is a product of his system and associated presuppositions.
10 posted on 04/02/2007 8:59:53 AM PDT by topcat54
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: topcat54
Well, the whole concept of a Rapture is a priori evidence of the collective egoic mind that infests the modern church: "We all are better than you all, and God's going to take us home first."
11 posted on 04/02/2007 9:06:05 AM PDT by Mr. Jeeves ("Wise men don't need to debate; men who need to debate are not wise." -- Tao Te Ching)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: topcat54

The Doctrine of pretrib rapture did not become popular until the publication of the Scofield Reference Bible. Scofield was influenced by Darby a member of the Plymouth Bretheren who had been a priest in the Anglican church.
Darby was a believer in the Dispensationalism which has been rejected by both Catholic and reformed Protestant teachings and doctrine.

What I find most troublesome about the doctrine is the assumption that Christians will be taken up before the tribulation therefore avoiding suffering. The Bible clearly does not exempt Christians from having to suffer for their faith. Rather it says that we will suffer for it.

It also forgets that the 2nd coming of Christ will be a rather spectacular event. There is no reason to believe in a secret/hey where did everybody go? whisking away of the faithful.

In any event no man know's the hour of His coming so we must be ready in and out of season. And at death we will all have to face the Lord, may we do so with a humble and contrite heart.


12 posted on 04/02/2007 9:13:18 AM PDT by lastchance
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: topcat54
There is nothing in Scripture that states how far in advance of the Tribulation the rapture happens. It could be 100 years. It could be a month. -- Blogger

(Moved from another thread.)

Yes there is. Those who are alive do not precede those who have died. The resurrection of the righteous is stated, by Jesus, to be on the last day.

13 posted on 04/02/2007 9:25:06 AM PDT by Lee N. Field
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: topcat54
Is the Pretribulation Rapture Biblical?

NO.

Matthew 24 (KJV)
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Notice that in verse 39, the wicked who perished in the flood are described as being taken away. The wicked are taken first, not the righteous. Next, it tells us that it shall be exactly the same at the arrival of Messiah. In the days of Noah, those taken first perished, and so it will be again at the arrival of Messiah. The answer given by Yehoshua refers to the vultures gathering over the bodies of the wicked, those taken first, which are all slain as the Messiah arrives.

Now, let's look at the tares and wheat:

Matthew 13 (KJV)
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Yehoshua then explains the parable in detail to His disciples:

Matthew 13
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Notice the timing of events described, and how it compares with those taken first in Matthew 24:39-42. At the end of the world, when the time for the harvest of humanity has come, it is not the righteous who are gathered first, it is the wicked! The wicked are taken and dealt with first, while the people of YHWH are still among them.

Now, read Luke 17:26-30.

Luke 17 (KJV)
26   And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27   They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28   Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29   But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30   Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Sudden destruction comes upon the wicked at the arrival of Messiah. They will all perish.

Revelation 3 (all the following are from the KJV)
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Revelation 3
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Revelation 16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Revelation 22
7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Revelation 22
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Revelation 22
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

You can't surprise the wicked if you take away the righteous first. Messiah is supposed to come quickly, like a thief in the night, so people are to repent, live righteously and be watchful, lest they be caught by surprise. If you remove the righteous first, the wicked are going to notice and not be surprised.

Revelation 16 shows the last seven plagues being poured out on the unrepentant wicked of the earth. Through verse 12 the first six of the plagues are poured out, and then in verse 15-

Revelation 16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Messiah has not come yet at the time of the sixth plague! Notice that the seventh plague then falls in verse 17-

Revelation 16 (KJV)
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

At the time the seventh plague is announcing the time for earth has come to an end, and the arrival of Messiah follows. So, Messiah does not come to earth until after all seven plagues have been poured out on the wicked. The faithful are not removed at any point prior to these plagues, they have endured them without fear of being affected by them.

Psalm 91 (JPS)
5 Thou shalt not be afraid of the terror by night, nor of the arrow that flieth by day;
6 Of the pestilence that walketh in darkness, nor of the destruction that wasteth at noonday.
7 A thousand may fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; it shall not come nigh thee.
8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold, and see the recompense of the wicked.
9 For thou hast made YHWH who is my refuge, even the Most High, thy habitation.
10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy tent.
11 For He will give His angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.

Proverbs 10:30   The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.

From what I read, there is no foundation for a pre-trib rapture or removal of the righteous at all.

I think the tribulation is the judgement. No one escapes the judgement.

Matthew 16
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Rewards aren't given prior, they are given after.

Psalm 37 (JPS)
9 For evil-doers shall be cut off; but those that wait for YHWH, they shall inherit the land.
20 For the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of YHWH shall be as the fat of lambs -- they shall pass away in smoke, they shall pass away.
22 For such as are blessed of Him shall inherit the land; and they that are cursed of Him shall be cut off.
23 It is of YHWH that a man's goings are established; and He delighted in his way.
24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down; for YHWH upholdeth his hand.
27 Depart from evil, and do good; and dwell for evermore.
28 For YHWH loveth justice, and forsaketh not His saints; they are preserved for ever; but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
29 The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.
32 The wicked watcheth the righteous, and seeketh to slay him.
33 YHWH will not leave him in his hand, nor suffer him to be condemned when he is judged.
34 Wait for YHWH, and keep His way, and He will exalt thee to inherit the land; when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.
38 But transgressors shall be destroyed together; the future of the wicked shall be cut off.
39 But the salvation of the righteous is of YHWH; He is their stronghold in the time of trouble.
40 And YHWH helpeth them, and delivereth them; He delivereth them from the wicked, and saveth them, because they have taken refuge in Him.

YHWH is the deliverer, and the saviour.
Isaiah 47:4 - Our Redeemer, YHWH of hosts is His name, The Holy One of Israel.

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Alive and remain. This indicates that some are dead and gone already. (The wicked)

It might be that during this period of being caught up in the air, is when the new earth and heaven are created.



14 posted on 04/02/2007 9:31:25 AM PDT by ET(end tyranny) (John 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a MAN that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God:)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Lee N. Field; topcat54
"The resurrection of the righteous is stated, by Jesus, to be on the last day."

I think that timing is off by 1,000 years.

Revelation 20:4-6 (First resurrection.)

Revelation 20:11-15 (Second resurrection/Final Judgment.)

15 posted on 04/02/2007 9:52:21 AM PDT by Enosh ()
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: kawaii

"Is the Pretribulation Rapture Biblical?

No."


Oh yes it is!


16 posted on 04/02/2007 9:56:21 AM PDT by swmobuffalo (The only good terrorist is a dead terrorist.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: topcat54; Cvengr; 1000 silverlings; TomSmedley; Lee N. Field; ladyinred

Wow. I was just going to link to this excellent essay to answer Cvengr's question to me on another thread as to why the Rapture is fiction...and recent fiction, at that.


17 posted on 04/02/2007 10:12:37 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Enosh; Lee N. Field
I think that timing is off by 1,000 years. Revelation 20:4-6 (First resurrection.) Revelation 20:11-15 (Second resurrection/Final Judgment.)
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
This second resurrection is obviously the general physical resurrection of all men at the end of the age. The "sea" and "death and Hades" gave up all the dead. ("Hades" corresponds to OT Sheol, the abode of the dead. Hades and the lake of fire are not the same. But you probably know that.)

The judgment and separation of the righteous from the unrighteous is found in v. 15, "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire". The unrighteous, pictured as those who names are not in the book of life, are cast into the lake of fire. (Cf. Matthew 25:31ff.)

Beginning in verse 16 (you do have a verse 16) and continuing on we have the final blessing of those who names are written in the book of life.

The thousand years is spiritual, and represents the entire period of time between Christ's two advents. The first resurrection, of which the believers have a part, is Christ's resurrection of the firstfruits, "Then comes the end, ..." (cf. 1 Cor. 15:23,24). "The end" from 1 Cor. 15:24 corresponds to Rev. 20:11 and following.

There is no thousands years magically inserted between 1 Cor. 15 verses 23 and 24.

See how simple it is without all the dispensational mumbo jumbo.

Don't mean to steal Lee's thunder.

18 posted on 04/02/2007 10:27:08 AM PDT by topcat54
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: topcat54
Don't mean to steal Lee's thunder.

[shrug]. So I decided I'd rather eat lunch than compose a reasoned response that would get ignored anyway. Thunder away.

Worth pointing out that the first and second deaths are in parallel (I think that's what they call chiastic parallel, but don't hold me to that) with the first and second resurrections. The first death is the one all flesh is subject to, if the Lord tarries. The second is distinct in kind, being not a death of the body but the torment of the resurrected sinner in the lake of fire.

There is a similar distinction in kind (not simply in temporal order) between the first and second resurrections. The first is spiritual, either conversion ("he has passed from death to life") or the passing of the soul of the believer to the presence of God upon death. Only believers get this one. The second, is the resurrection of the body, that everyone gets.

For those who have experience the first ressurection, the second death has no power. The ressurection of the body comes, as Jesus said, on the last day.

19 posted on 04/02/2007 10:42:19 AM PDT by Lee N. Field
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: topcat54; Lee N. Field
Revelation 20:4-6

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

20 posted on 04/02/2007 10:45:07 AM PDT by Enosh ()
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: Lee N. Field
Amen. Excellent observation. Spiritual death requires a spiritual resurrection. Physical death requires a physical resurrection. Only one of each.

Same parallel in John 5:

25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
The first resurrection in v. 25 is spiritual and limited, "and hour is coming and now is ... and those who hear will live." Only those with spiritual ears are able to hear the voice of the Master and be born again and raised spiritually from the dead (cf. Eph. 2:5,6).

The second resurrection is physical, "from the grace", and are judged, "those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

A general resurrection followed immediately by a general judgment are what's in store.

21 posted on 04/02/2007 10:51:05 AM PDT by topcat54
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: Enosh; Lee N. Field

OK. I'm quite familiar with the passage. Now tell me something I don't know.


22 posted on 04/02/2007 10:52:21 AM PDT by topcat54
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: topcat54; Lee N. Field

You don't think Christ's Millennial Reign will literally take place?


23 posted on 04/02/2007 10:59:38 AM PDT by Enosh ()
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: Enosh
You don't think Christ's Millennial Reign will literally take place?

"Seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus". "My kingdom is not of this world."

Present reality.

24 posted on 04/02/2007 11:06:54 AM PDT by Lee N. Field
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: topcat54
I see a lot of posts on this thread about two resurrections. Two resurrections are soundly scriptural. But according to Dispensationalism, there are three:

1.) A resurrection of the righteous immediately prior to the Tribulation;
2.) A resurrection of the Tribulation Saints prior to the Millenium, and;
3.) A resurrection of the wicked prior to Judgement.

Lahaye (for instance) specifically refers to THREE resurrections and TWO Judgements in his Revelation commentary (a well-intentioned Baptismal gift). I suppose the second Judgement Day was required to reconcile the timeline after finessing the extra resurrection into the text. It's all very confusing.

25 posted on 04/02/2007 11:07:48 AM PDT by jboot (If I can't get a Josiah, I'll settle for a Jehu)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: topcat54; Enosh; Lee N. Field

"The judgment and separation of the righteous from the unrighteous is found in v. 15, "

"12 ...And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 ....up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works."

Well, now isn't that swell. Now it looks like believers are not alive and present with God, but dead, waiting to find out if they are in the Book of Life and to be judged on their works, like unbelievers. Where in the scriptures are believers referred to as "the dead"?


26 posted on 04/02/2007 11:15:15 AM PDT by blue-duncan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: jboot
It's all very confusing.

Occam's razor, man, Occam's razor.

27 posted on 04/02/2007 11:17:18 AM PDT by Lee N. Field
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: Enosh; Lee N. Field; Dr. Eckleburg; TomSmedley; 1000 silverlings
You don't think Christ's Millennial Reign will literally take place?

It is literally taking place.

Christ is in heaven reigning on the throne of David exercising rule over the nations with a rod of iron (Luke 1:33; Acts 2:31ff; Rom. 15:12; 1 Cor. 15:25; Heb. 1:8; Rev. 2:27). He has been given all authority in heaven and on earth and the gospel is having success over the nations (Matt. 28:18-20). The kingdom is being established because Satan, the strong man, has been cast out of heaven (Luke 10:18) and bound (Matt. 12:28,29; Rev. 20:2,3). Christ's saints are being spiritually resurrected daily and are reigning with Him as the royal priesthood and holy nation (Eph. 2:5,6; 1 Peter 2:9).

That's about as literal as it gets.

28 posted on 04/02/2007 11:19:24 AM PDT by topcat54
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Lee N. Field
"Occam's razor, man, Occam's razor."

Where can I get blade refills? ;-)

29 posted on 04/02/2007 11:23:53 AM PDT by jboot (If I can't get a Josiah, I'll settle for a Jehu)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: topcat54; Lee N. Field; Dr. Eckleburg; TomSmedley; 1000 silverlings
"It is literally taking place."

There's one small problem with this interpretation; the number 2,007 is larger than the number 1,000.

30 posted on 04/02/2007 11:25:01 AM PDT by Enosh ()
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: Dr. Eckleburg

"... as to why the Rapture is fiction."

Remember good Doctor, precision counts.

The "Rapture" is not "fictional".

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Certain theories about it's exact timing may be.


31 posted on 04/02/2007 11:27:41 AM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: Mr. Jeeves; Kolokotronis
Well, the whole concept of a Rapture is a priori evidence of the collective egoic mind that infests the modern church: "We all are better than you all, and God's going to take us home first."

It also shows that the American Evangelical church really doesn't know how to handle death. It is seen as something to be feared, so the gospel is "Jesus coming back to take us before we die."

It's pathetic, because both Biblically and historically, the Church always recognized that Christ defeated death, and not merely cheated it. Death was something to be embraced (though not too quickly!), and martyrs to be revered. It was not something to be escaped through some secretive snatching.

Hell was in an uproar because it was done away with.
It was in an uproar because it is mocked.
It was in an uproar, for it is destroyed.
It is in an uproar, for it is annihilated.
It is in an uproar, for it is now made captive.
Hell took a body, and discovered God.
It took earth, and encountered Heaven.
It took what it saw, and was overcome by what it did not see.
O death, where is thy sting?
O Hades, where is thy victory?

Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!
Christ is Risen, and the evil ones are cast down!
Christ is Risen, and the angels rejoice!
Christ is Risen, and life is liberated!
Christ is Risen, and the tomb is emptied of its dead;
for Christ having risen from the dead,
is become the first-fruits of those who have fallen asleep.
To Him be Glory and Power forever and ever. Amen!

(Thanks to Kolokotronis for introducing me to Chrysostom's Easter Sermon.)
32 posted on 04/02/2007 11:30:43 AM PDT by jude24 (Giuliani 2008 - because the War on Terror and the War in Iraq are what really matter.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: topcat54

No.


33 posted on 04/02/2007 11:31:07 AM PDT by highlander_UW (I don't know what my future holds, but I know Who holds my future)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: blue-duncan; Enosh; Lee N. Field
Well, now isn't that swell. Now it looks like believers are not alive and present with God, but dead,

Physically dead but spiritually live. That what's going on right now. Those who have gone onto glory are spiritually in the presence of God, but await the final resurrection of their bodies. They are disembodied spirits in Hades, the place of the dead. (No, it's not on any map.) And then someday they will be like him.

Those of us believers on earth are spiritually alive but still face the possibility of physical death. "Death and Hades" have not yet been cast into the lake of fire.

Where in the scriptures are believers referred to as "the dead"?

"But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, ..." (Matt. 22:31)

"But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord 'the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.'" (Luke 20:37)

"Then Jesus said to them plainly, 'Lazarus is dead.'" (John 11:14)

Who was Jesus talking about? Only unbelievers? Is that your theory?

You must discern between those spiritually dead (cf. Luke 9:60), and the physically dead.

34 posted on 04/02/2007 11:31:30 AM PDT by topcat54
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Lee N. Field; Enosh

"Seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus". "My kingdom is not of this world."


Your quoted verses do not represent the entire witness of Scripture...

Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


35 posted on 04/02/2007 11:33:02 AM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: Enosh; Lee N. Field; Dr. Eckleburg; TomSmedley; 1000 silverlings
There's one small problem with this interpretation; the number 2,007 is larger than the number 1,000.

Which only means you needs eyes to see:

"For every beast of the forest is Mine, And the cattle on a thousand hills." (Ps. 50:10)

Does God's ownership of the cattle stop at Hill #1001?

All the numbers in the book of Revelation are symbolic, the larger ones being multiples of other significant numbers. 1000 = 10 X 10 X 10. 144,000 = 12 X 12 X 1000, The city dimensions in Rev. 21 contain similar numbers like 12,000 furlongs and 144 cubits.

Of course if you read the opening line it would help you figure this out.

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants--things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John," (Rev. 1:1)

Or perhaps you mean "literally" in some way other than how God expects us to understand His word?

The phrsae "thousand years" is a symbol found in a book full of symbols (do you really expect there to be a "literal" beast with seven heads and the ten horns someday?).

The actual length of the "thousand years" is entirely determined by the characteristics of the "thousands years". Satan is bound and the saints are reigning with Christ. That's how the Bible describes today.

36 posted on 04/02/2007 11:44:31 AM PDT by topcat54
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: PetroniusMaximus; Lee N. Field; Enosh
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Is this not the same thing that Paul describes in 1 Cor. 15:

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet
.
26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.
28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
Christ is presently reigning and accomplishing kingdom expansion by the power of the gospel over the nations.
37 posted on 04/02/2007 11:52:01 AM PDT by topcat54
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: topcat54
"Which only means you needs eyes to see:"

You are correct in that some of Revelation is as viewed from Heaven and some as from Earth.

The thousand year bit is viewed as from Earth, making it literally one thousand years, IMO.
(Rev 20:1 - "And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven,..."

You disagree and that's fine.

"Satan is bound and the saints are reigning with Christ. That's how the Bible describes today."

Oh yeah? Explain Nancy Pelosi. (Hehee...)

38 posted on 04/02/2007 11:56:06 AM PDT by Enosh ()
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: topcat54; Enosh; Lee N. Field

"Who was Jesus talking about? Only unbelievers? Is that your theory?"

That is who John is talking about in Rev. 20. Believers have already been judged at Calvary and on physical death their works are judged. That's why Paul can say a crown of righteousness awaits him or to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. There is no holding one's breath to see if he gets a prize sometime in the future for the believer; he is in the presence where all is manifest before the One with whom we have to do.

When the Great White Throne judgment takes place the marriage supper has already taken place and the believers are already clothed. They have nothing to fear from Him who sits on the throne. They are not disembodied spirits for they are clothed. This judgment is for the unbelievers of all ages and it is a judgment for works that determines the severity of their eternal punishment (Matt. 11:21-22, "Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you").

"15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." Is just a statement where the eternal punishment is to take place. The unbelieving dead already know their names are not written in the Book of Life for where they are the presence of God is not.


39 posted on 04/02/2007 11:58:41 AM PDT by blue-duncan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: blue-duncan; Enosh; Lee N. Field
That is who John is talking about in Rev. 20. Believers have already been judged at Calvary and on physical death their works are judged. That's why Paul can say a crown of righteousness awaits him or to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. There is no holding one's breath to see if he gets a prize sometime in the future for the believer; he is in the presence where all is manifest before the One with whom we have to do.

Interesting theory. I've seen it before in dispensationalism. Another "rightly dividing" disconnect. I've have to see the proof from specific verses to take it seriously.

They are not disembodied spirits for they are clothed.

What do they put their clothes on if their bodies are still in the grave? You've not spiritualizing the condition of the saints, are you?

You haven't mentioned Matthew 25:31ff; the judgment of the sheep and goats. One judgment or two. Believers and unbelievers, or no? These sheep are not believing sheep but some other set of sheep. "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. ... and I know My sheep, and am known by My own."

Simple reading of the text, or dispensationally/unnecessarily complex?

40 posted on 04/02/2007 12:26:28 PM PDT by topcat54
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: Cvengr
This is only the beginning of the false teaching that will come down the pike as the return of Christ draws near.

Did you hear about the gay "pastor" (Church of England) who declared the other day that Christ did not die for sin and the Easter message was "repulsive"?

Satan must twist Scripture and lie about it to keep people away from Christ and out of heaven. Look for more and more of this as the days go on.

41 posted on 04/02/2007 12:31:13 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: PetroniusMaximus; topcat54
As was explained on another thread, the term "rapture" has been twisted out of all recognition and certainly for nearly 1900 years never meant what dispensationalists, a minority among Chrsitians, believe.

Here's topcat's excellent reply...

"For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep." (1 Thess 4:15)

Now, for almost 1900 years every Christian has read this passage and understood the phrase "until the coming of the Lord" to be a reference to the second coming, and so this passage was in reference to that even, with the resurrection of the dead and judgment day. They saw 1 Cor. 15 as the parallel in Paul's thought.

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--

52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

55 "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?"

56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

At Christ's return not only are we all changed – corruption putting on incorruption – but death is finally conquered. There is clearly no place in this passage for a thousands years separating our resurrection and the conquering of sin and death.

But in the slice and dice world of dispensationalism, Paul has confused us by compressing several second comings and several resurrections and a thousand years of actual history all into what seems like one event. Elsewhere I pointed out a similar problem (according to the dispensationalist) with a "plain reading" of Paul earlier in the chapter.

I had the pleasure (of sorts) of listening to John MacArthur this morning on the ride to work. His topic is the second coming. His text was 1 Cor. 15:20-28). I really like Johnny Mac. I listen to him almost every morning. He is generally a very straightforward sort of preacher. When he gets on a roll about God's sovereign election in the salvation of His people, as he did recently at the Ligioner Conference, he can be very good.

But what struck about his message today was the convoluted, uncharacteristically obtuse way he approached the passage. He took a plain, simple passage about Christ and the resurrection, and how there are but two (His and ours; "But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming") and twisted into an unrecognizable mess, all because of this tortured eschatology. Amazingly he was able to turn the two resurrections of the text into four!

Here was what some folks have called the best modern preacher in America, if not the entire world, reduced to a twisted mess of illogical expression.

I know it's not your place to defend Johnny Mac or any other dispensationalist, but the fact is MacArthur is the most inarticulate when he is talking about future things. And why is that? Because he is forced to deviate from the plain straightforward text of Scripture and insert all his dispensationally contrived theories.

The Gospel will continue to be preached among all nations and races, benefiting all who hear it with ears given by God for His glory.

Then at a time of God's choosing and unknown to man, Christ will come again to judge the quick and the death. At that exact moment, all history will end. The condemned will be cast aside for all eternity. Those acquitted by Christ's redemption will join Him in heaven forever.

That is Scriptural. That is truthful. That is simple and straightforward and that is what God intends for us to know and live by.

Most everything else is "vain imaginings."

From Charles Spurgeon, "THE PARACLETE" No. 1074. (John 14:16)

"Take care never to impute the vain imaginings of your fancy to the Holy Spirit. I have seen the Spirit of God shamefully dishonored by people -- I hope they were insane -- who have said that they have had this and that revealed to them.

There has not for some years passed over my head a single week in which I have not been pestered with the 'revelations' of hypocrites or maniacs. Semi-lunatics are very fond of coming with messages from the Lord to me, and it may save them some trouble if I tell them once for all that I will have none of their stupid messages. When my Lord and Master has any message to me he knows where I am, and he will send it to me direct, and not by madmen.

Never dream that events are revealed to you by heaven, or you may come to be like those idiots who dare impute their blatant follies to the Holy Spirit.

If you feel your tongue itch to talk nonsense, trace it to the devil, not to the Spirit of God.

Whatever is to be revealed by the Spirit to any of us is in the word of God already -- he adds nothing to the Bible, and never will. Let persons who have revelations of this, that, and the other, go to bed and wakeup in their senses. I only wish they would follow the advice, and no longer insult the Holy Spirit by laying their nonsense at his door."


42 posted on 04/02/2007 12:39:10 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: topcat54

The Bible says that no one knows the day or the hour of the Lord's return - right? So if there is a pre trib rapture then all one need to do is count 7 years from this rapture and one will know when the Lord is coming but the Bible says no one will know. Thus the idea of a pre trib rapture can not be true!


43 posted on 04/02/2007 12:39:12 PM PDT by Macoraba
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Blogger; Dr. Eckleburg
[I know you wanted to move this topic, so I brought it here.]

But there are non-dispensationalists who believe in a pre-trib rapture.

Who are these people (please be specific) and why would they need to believe in a pre-trib rapture if they are not dispensational on the relationship between Israel and the Church?

The only reason for inventing or believing in a pre-trib rapture is to get rid of the Church (His chosen heavenly people) so that God can begin dealing once again with Israel after the flesh (His chosen earthly people).

44 posted on 04/02/2007 12:40:20 PM PDT by topcat54
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Macoraba
Thus the idea of a pre trib rapture can not be true!

"So simple even a caveman can do it." :-) (no offense)

45 posted on 04/02/2007 12:41:28 PM PDT by topcat54
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: topcat54
The only reason for inventing or believing in a pre-trib rapture is to get rid of the Church (His chosen heavenly people) so that God can begin dealing once again with Israel after the flesh

Can't talk about just one thing. And we're back to the root error, from which all else springs: dispensationalism's absolute distinction between Israel and the church.

46 posted on 04/02/2007 12:51:02 PM PDT by Lee N. Field
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: topcat54; TomSmedley; Lee N. Field; 1000 silverlings; Quix
It is literally taking place.

Christ is in heaven reigning on the throne of David exercising rule over the nations with a rod of iron (Luke 1:33; Acts 2:31ff; Rom. 15:12; 1 Cor. 15:25; Heb. 1:8; Rev. 2:27). He has been given all authority in heaven and on earth and the gospel is having success over the nations (Matt. 28:18-20). The kingdom is being established because Satan, the strong man, has been cast out of heaven (Luke 10:18) and bound (Matt. 12:28,29; Rev. 20:2,3). Christ's saints are being spiritually resurrected daily and are reigning with Him as the royal priesthood and holy nation (Eph. 2:5,6; 1 Peter 2:9).

That's about as literal as it gets.

AMEN!!! There is no greater truth in history than Christ reigns today "on earth as it is in Heaven."

Wake up, Christians. We are engaged in battle today. And we will win because the Gospel is "sharper than any twoedged sword..."

"Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him." -- Ephesians 3:8-12


47 posted on 04/02/2007 12:55:58 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: Dr. Eckleburg
Dr.E..."the Rapture is fiction...and recent fiction, at that."

Just think, Dr.E, in regards to your spirit, you might just get your wish.

48 posted on 04/02/2007 1:16:12 PM PDT by Cvengr
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: Enosh
Book of Enoch

Chapter 1

1 The words of the blessing of Enoch, wherewith he blessed the elect and righteous, who will be 2 living in the day of tribulation, when all the wicked and godless are to be removed. And he took up his parable and said -Enoch a righteous man, whose eyes were opened by God, saw the vision of the Holy One in the heavens, which the angels showed me, and from them I heard everything, and from them I understood as I saw, but not for this generation, but for a remote one which is 3 for to come. Concerning the elect I said, and took up my parable concerning them:

The Holy Great One will come forth from His dwelling, 4 And the eternal God will tread upon the earth, (even) on Mount Sinai, [And appear from His camp] And appear in the strength of His might from the heaven of heavens.

5 And all shall be smitten with fear And the Watchers shall quake, And great fear and trembling shall seize them unto the ends of the earth.

6 And the high mountains shall be shaken, And the high hills shall be made low, And shall melt like wax before the flame

7 And the earth shall be wholly rent in sunder, And all that is upon the earth shall perish, And there shall be a judgement upon all (men).

8 But with the righteous He will make peace.

And will protect the elect, And mercy shall be upon them.

And they shall all belong to God, And they shall be prospered, And they shall all be blessed.

And He will help them all, And light shall appear unto them, And He will make peace with them'.

9 And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones To execute judgement upon all, And to destroy all the ungodly:

And to convict all flesh Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.

http://wesley.nnu.edu/biblical_studies/noncanon/ot/pseudo/enoch.htm

***

The wicked are to be removed! ‘Thy kingdom come’ But you’ve got to give Jezebel credit for the whopper that is called the rapture.

Malachi 4

1 “For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,” Says the LORD of hosts, “ That will leave them neither root nor branch.

2 But to you who fear My name The Sun of Righteousness shall arise With healing in His wings; And you shall go out And grow fat like stall-fed calves. 3 You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this,” Says the LORD of hosts.

4 “ Remember the Torah of Moses, My servant, Which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel, With the statutes and judgments. 5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.

6 And he will turn The hearts of the fathers to the children, And the hearts of the children to their fathers, Lest I come and strike the earth with a curse.”

49 posted on 04/02/2007 1:17:54 PM PDT by Jeremiah Jr (Saturn is in Leo)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: topcat54

I am thinking people like Benny Hinn (who has more problems than his eschatology). He is for all intents and purposes a pro-Israel dominionist, but believes in the pre-trib rapture. To quote him "there won't be one saint of God raptured out of a wheel chair". He is not one you could plant in the camp of dispensationalism because of his dominionist preaching.

Why would they need to believe in a pre-trib? I have no idea. I'm not one of them. Seems inconsistent to me.

Number one "inventing" is offensive language that I would ask you to refrain from. It is a theological belief we have and you don't. Vitriol doesn't help us have what is turning out for the moment to be a civil discussion.

Second, God's dealing with Israel is one reason for the Rapture. The second is the protect the Church from His wrath. We aren't subject to His wrath because Christ took His wrath for us. Doesn't mean we won't have persecution here and now. But God see's us as pure and justified, and there is no need for us to be subjected to His wrath at all as it is poured out on the earth.


50 posted on 04/02/2007 1:25:14 PM PDT by Blogger
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-150151-200 ... 551-594 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson