Skip to comments.The God Debate (Sam Harris vs. Rick Warren)
Posted on 04/02/2007 8:52:50 AM PDT by Terriergal
April 9, 2007 issue - Rick Warren is as big as a bear, with a booming voice and easygoing charm. Sam Harris is compact, reserved and, despite the polemical tone of his books, friendly and mild. Warren, one of the best-known pastors in the world, started Saddleback in 1980; now 25,000 people attend the church each Sunday. Harris is softer-spoken; paragraphs pour out of him, complex and fact-filledas befits a Ph.D. student in neuroscience. At NEWSWEEK's invitation, they met in Warren's office recently and chatted, mostly amiably, for four hours. Jon Meacham moderated. Excerpts follow.
(Excerpt) Read more at msnbc.msn.com ...
Thanks. Will check it out.
The picture presented as representing Rick Warren at the beginning of the article shows someone else. Does this get more accurate at some point, or is Newswreck just as made up throughout the posted interview?
Warren's BIG problem in this article is he still has his fix on the Earth, rather than on the Heavenlies, as directed by Scripture. He was easily boxed into talking about earthly things for most of the "4 hour interview" - because that's where his focus is.
Warren says "One of the greatest evidences of God is answered prayer." Yet the Scripture says that God's miracles were His way of making Himself known throughout history.
Warren is a post-modern man, making arguments that - for the most part - can be blown off with the post-modern attitude of "I'm glad that your truth."
He would be better off quoting Romans 1 (NOT from the Message) than talking about how God answered a prayer. Lost folk are not going to be debated into believing in Jesus. Scripture will pierce hearts, man's wisdom will not.
Nice find Gal!
I'm not very impressed, it seems that Warren was back on his heels the whole time, but when this was said:
Rick, let's be blunt. Is Sam's soul in jeopardy, in your view, because he has rejected Jesus?
WARREN: The politically incorrect answer is yes.
HARRIS: Is that the honest answer?
WARREN: The truth is, religion is mutually exclusive. The person who says, "Oh, I just believe them all," is an idiot because the religions flat-out contradict each other. You cannot believe in reincarnation and heaven at the same time.
.....my opinion of Warren went up a notch.
But then again, Warren didn't point the reader to the truth by saying Christ is the only way. Still, he didn't deny him like Osteen...
Here's the picture from the top of the article. Although he's lost the glasses, the hawaiin shirt, and the double chin, and is sporting a new haircut (either a toupee or a bad combover, plus he's dyed it), it's def. Warren on the left. Did you not recognize him?
NW: Sam, what are the secular sources of an acceptable moral code?
JO: Surprised NW would come up with such a great question / sarc.
WARREN: Sam makes the statement in his book that religion is bad for the world, but far more people have been killed through atheists than through all the religious wars put together. Thousands died in the Inquisition; millions died under Mao, and under Stalin and Pol Pot. There is a home for atheists in the world todayit's called North Korea. I don't know any atheists who want to go there. I'd much rather live under Tony Blair, or even George Bush. The bottom line is that atheists, who accuse Christians of being intolerant, are as intolerant
JO: Warren scores a big one!
HARRIS: Religion is the only sphere of discourse where dogma is actually a good word, where it is considered ennobling to believe something strongly based on faith.
JO: No. My faith is the assurance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. I base my belief in the Bible on it's historical accuracy - TRUTH.
WARREN: For years, atheists have said there is no God, but they want to live like God exists. They want to live like their lives have meaning.
HARRIS: Many, many other prophets and gurus have said that (they are the truth).
WARREN: Here's the difference. Jesus says, "I am the only way to God. I am the way to the Father." He is either lying or he's not.
JO: Good job, Warren!!!
HARRIS: ...there is no good reason, certainly not a supernatural good reason, for the fact that I have so much and my neighbor has so little.
JO: This is telling. Gives liberals license to steal from hard working tax payers. Wealth distribution. No workee. No Eatee. (that's in the Bible)
WARREN: You'd much rather have somebodyan atheistfeeding the hungry than a person who believes in God? All of the great movements forward in Western civilization were by believers. It was pastors who led the abolition of slavery. It was pastors who led the woman's right to vote. It was pastors who led the civil-rights movement. Not atheists.
JO: Another score for Warren.
WARREN: If death is the end, shoot, I'm not going to waste another minute being altruistic.
JO: So much for the religion of Harris, Doing good for goodness sake. Heck. Where does goodness come from?
WARREN: God is not just a God of love. He is a God of justice. (snip) even if there were no such thing as heaven, I would put my trust in Christ because I have found it a meaningful, satisfactory, significant way to live.
WARREN: The person who says, "Oh, I just believe them all," is an idiot because the religions flat-out contradict each other. You cannot believe in reincarnation and heaven at the same time.
JO: One of my most used evangelism points.
HARRIS: I wouldn't put it in those stark terms, because I don't have a rigid view how someone should spend their life so as not to waste it.
JO: Really? But you just said there's no good reason why some people have more than others. You ARE judging people.
WARREN: You're more spiritual than you think. You just don't want a boss. You don't want a God who tells you what to do.
WARREN: We're both betting. He's betting his life that he's right. I'm betting my life that Jesus was not a liar. When we die, if he's right, I've lost nothing. If I'm right, he's lost everything. I'm not willing to make that gamble.
That was impressive. Considering the short amount of time, Warren hit most of the major points. He could have explored the creation and God's laws of science and nature more, but that would have taken much longer.
G.K. Chesterton vs George Bernard Shaw
"Socialism, Family & Religious Faith"
Walter Martin and Ray Comfort
He did an EXCELLENT job. Just nailed Harris on
all points. I believe it was a "Stephen" moment.
Truly God was speaking through Warren.
Also no glasses. Refractive surgery?
Warren got stuck in the earthlies?
Huh? Where else are you going to find common ground when
debating an athiest? They don't believe in heaven. Duh!
Good analysis, thought I take exception with the following:
Warren: snip/even if there were no such thing as heaven, I would put my trust in Christ because I have found it a meaningful, satisfactory, significant way to live.
That is a twist on the old witnessing line "if I live like a Christian and there is nothing, at least I have lived a better life."
Scripture teaches that "If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied." 1 Corinthians 15:19
WARREN: Jesus says, "I am the only way to God. I am the way to the Father." (John 14:6 paraphrased)
A man dead in his sins (Ephesians 2) cannot understand spiritual things. It is useless to debate such with them. There is NO common ground with a lost person on these matters - how can one find it?
As Paul demonstrated on Mars Hill, we who are in Christ must declare Him to the lost world - not discuss ethereal issues of whether heathens can hold moral opinions.
Overall, I think Warren did much better than I've ever seen or heard him in the past.
Just as we read Scripture in context, go back and
reread Warren's "heaven" comment in context. You'll
I agree. Overall, Warren did much better than expected.
Some people aren't into works to score Spiritual
points (heaven offsets). Some people score Spiritual
points by picking gnats out of their teeth.
- Jo Nuvark -
Common Ground - being "all things to all men".
For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found
an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD.
Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I
unto you. (Acts 17:23)
To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I
have become all things to all men, so that I may by all
means save some. (1Corinthians 9:22)
NO WORKEE. NO EATEE.
For even when we were with you, we used to give
you this order: if anyone is not willing to work,
then he is not to eat, either. (2Thessalonians 3:10)
INDEED. RW has always believed and taught that.