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Posted on 04/03/2007 2:32:00 AM PDT by NYer
ROME, APRIL 2, 2007 (Zenit.org).- Adolf Hitler's No. 1 enemy was the Vatican's secretary of state, Eugenio Pacelli, future Pope Pius XII, according to documents recently found in Europe.
In an article published last Thursday by La Repubblica, reporter Marco Ansaldo announced that he has a dossier on Pius XII that complements documentation found in the Vatican Archives.
According to the newly discovered documents, Pius XII was considered an enemy of the Third Reich. Memos and letters unearthed at a depot used by the Stasi, the East German secret police, show that Nazi spies within the Vatican were concerned at the Pope's efforts to help displaced Poles and Jews.
One document from the head of Berlin's police force tells Joachim von Ribbentrop, the Third Reich's foreign minister, that the Catholic Church was providing assistance to Jews "both in terms of people and financially."
Russia's motives
In a commentary on the new documents, Sister Margherita Marchione, author and expert on Pius XII, explains the campaign against the Pope was the work of the Soviets.
"Russia's plans were to control Europe after the war. The only outspoken obstacle to Russia's plan in Europe was the Catholic Church," Sister Marchione wrote.
"The first attacks claiming that the Church had endorsed silently the atrocities of the Nazis came from Communist Russia," she explained. "Soon to control Poland, and other vast areas in Eastern Europe, Russia saw the need to break the loyalty to the Pope of Catholic majorities in those countries.
"The plan was a simple one: convince everyone that the Pope supported the hated Nazis during the war and, therefore, neither he nor the Church could be trusted after the war. The destruction of the Church would leave the field wide open for Russian influence and control."
The evidence continues to mount.
Roosha plotting Marxists—Surprise!!
Wow --- these will probably rival the infamously fraudulent Isidorian Decretals and the Donation of Constantine in credibility.
And those quotes from Sister Marchione --- like she's going to be some kind of objective credible source.
Pope Pius XII brought Hitler to power with the Concordat that he negotiated for the RCC and all your attempts to try to rewrite history are useless exercises in futility.
BTW Just what did he do to stop the massacre of 800,000 Serbs during the War by that Catholic Ustasha and their Vatican facilitators?
And those Rat Lines of Nazi war criminals after the war ran right through Pius XII's Vatican. He certainly wasn't an enemy of these Third Reich criminals, was he??? Get Real.
You're the one rewriting history.
Pope Pius XII enjoyed an excellent reputation for helping the Jews both during and after the war. It wasn't until the communist-inspired play, "The Deputy," was released in the early '60s that the smear campaign against him began.
"Being a lover of freedom, when the revolution came in Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but, no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks...Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler's campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly.
Albert Einstein
Time Magazine, 12/23/40**************************************
The charity and work of Pope Pius XII during World War II so impressed the Chief Rabbi of Rome, Israel Zolli, that in 1944 he was open to the grace of God which led him into the Catholic faith. As his baptismal name, he took the same one Pius had, Eugenio, as his own. Later Israel Eugenio Zolli wrote a book entitled, Why I Became a Catholic.
**************************************
"The voice of Pius XII is a lonely voice in the silence and darkness enveloping Europe this Christmas... he is about the only ruler left on the Continent of Europe who dares to raise his voice at all... the Pope put himself squarely against Hitlerism... he left no doubt that the Nazi aims are also irreconcilable with his own conception of a Christian peace."
The New York Times editorial
12/25/41 (Late Day edition, p. 24)**************************************
"This Christmas more than ever he is a lonely voice crying out of the silence of a continent... Pope Pius expresses as passionately as any leader on our side the war aims of the struggle for freedom when he says that those who aim at building a new world must fight for free choice of government and religious order. They must refuse that the state should make of individuals a herd of whom the state disposes as if they were lifeless things."
The New York Times editorial
12/25/42 (Late Day edition, p. 16)
You've bought into the slanders created out of whole cloth by the Soviets and by Hochhuth, son of an SS officer and a dedicated communist himself. This reminds me of the Sacco and Vanzetti supporters who continued to "believe" against all evidence, or those who just couldn't believe that Casement's "Black Diaries" were real and therefore took refuge in the claim that they were forgeries. More "true believers" from the anarchist and anti-capitalist crowds.
The truth is finally coming to light, despite the best efforts of the Marxists to slander the Catholic church.
Before jumping into condemnation of the failings of the Catholic Church, I would like to first hear about what other Christian Churches did about Hitler, his persecution of the Jews, and Mein Kampf. I’m particularly interested in the actions taken by your church and its leaders, Uncle Chip.
So all of those who fought against the Third Reich that had been brought to power with the assistance of Pope Pius XII were all Marxists???
Contemporary accounts make it clear that Pope Pius and the Church fought harder against Naziism than any other organization in Europe. Perhaps they could have prevailed if more other churches had helped them, instead of hanging pictures of Schickelgruber in the place of honor in their sanctuaries.
No other church signed that Concordat that brought Hitler to power —— just the Vatican.
No dear -— I stand with the truth and those who are willing to admit it -— painful as it may be. Are you saying that anyone who tells the truth about the Vatican is a Marxist??? Even Catholic historians admit that Pope John XXIII had Marxist leanings. You can’t hide behind that cloak forever.
The facts are against your position, and more facts are coming out daily at this point. It's like the Venona papers turning a lot of parlor pinks' ideas on their heads. As East German Stasi materials continue to be examined, more of the covert operations against the Church can be expected to come out. It will make the manufactured fiction that Pope Pius collaborated with the Nazis harder and harder to believe, but I'm sure you'll stick to your guns to the bitter end.
Did he stop beating his wife?
Rather than address the testimony of the pope's contemporaries, like that of the NY Times, Einstein and the chief rabbi of Rome, you've decided to drop a non-sequitur. Nevertheless, I'll address it.
The Index wasn't meant to be an infallible list of every book containing anti-Christian ideologies. It's a fairly short list, and it wasn't even kept by the pope. The job of maintaining the list was the job of the office of the Inquisition, as far as I know. Regardless, the Index was pretty much defunct by WWII, as the last non-fiction entry is Satre in 1948, at least according to this site.
Marx isn't listed in the Index either, but that doesn't mean communism was approved by the Church. Marxism (and all forms of Socialism - like Nazism) was denounced many times in papal encyclicals, such as the Syllabus of Errors, On Atheistic Communism, and On the Doctrines of the Modernists.
Wrong. Hitler was already in power.
The Concordat was the Holy See's attempt to get some sort of guarantee for the rights of Catholics in return for peacefully dismantling the Catholic political party, as required by the Nazis (peacefully, or otherwise).
Does your "Christianity" support slandering an innocent man? Because that's exactly what you're doing ...
Hitler became chancellor January 31, 1933.
The concordat was signed July 20, 1933.
Try to tell the truth, even if you can't get mileage against Rome from it.
No, they didn't sign the Catholic condordat which protected the right of Catholics to practice their faith in Germany. The Protestants signed their own agreements.
Now, instead of dodging, please tell us what your church did to save the Jews?
That should read:
Now, instead of dodging, please tell us what your church and its leaders did to save the Jews?
The Nazi-inspired 'German Christian' movement
There was no comparable perversion of Christianity in the Catholic Church in Germany; the bishops wouldn't permit it.
Your mind is obviously totally closed on this subject so this is not an attempt to bring light to your own tortured universe. Rather, it's for the benefit of any lurkers who may be taken in by this swill. This is Cornwell's hypothesis as published in his book "Hitler's Pope".
The Concordat between the Holy See and the German Reich was concluded in July 1933, while Hilter was appointed Chancellor in January 1933. January 30, to be exact. This completed his rise to power which had been occurring for some considerable time previously.
It was no coincidence that Hitler's appointment preceded the Concordat for the Vatican foresaw possible difficulties ahead and wished to secure the rights of Catholics to freely practice their religion. A practice which continues to this day, for the Vatican attempts, as far as is possible, to maintain cordial relations with all countries for precisely this purpose.
Intemperate outbursts like yours really only serve to spend any capital you may have regarding credibility and good sense.
The media only goes after these Pope claims to cover up the ideaologies that truly promoted and enabled Hitler;Darwinism and Islam.
Actually if you’d bother to read I was defending the Pope...
Brother, would you mind rephrasing #24. I’ve read it several times, and I’m really not sure what it means.
On the other hand, evading a counter-argument by other means - such as filing abuse reports (which didn't happen here) asking for counter-arguments to be removed - or by starting a new, clean thread to prosecute the very same argument also can incite flame wars or cause resentments.
So please pick a thread and make your case and then leave it alone unless a third party brings it up again. That way everyone has clean hands.
Post clarified: The Pope had nothing to do with Hitler’s rise to power nor the actions of the Nazis. The media loves to harp on these aledged connections so as to distract from the fact that Hitler got most of his ideas from Darwinism, and collaborated extensively with Muslims to advance his goals. Thus they invent connections with the Vatican so as to distract from the true associations between Nazism and the media darlings; Islam and Darwinism.
My post on this thread had nothing to do with posts on any other threads. It’s not realated at all, and I’m hardly following anybody.
Thank you, sir. Well said.
Part of the reason this forum exists is the MSM’s allergy to the truth.
On the other hand, evading a counter-argument by other means - such as filing abuse reports (which didn't happen here) asking for counter-arguments to be removed - or by starting a new, clean thread to prosecute the very same argument also can incite flame wars or cause resentments.
Good and wise advice. Please knock me over the head with this (again), should I ever need it.
No --- he was tenuously in power at that time and in dire need of a Concordat to keep him there. And Pacelli's Vatican was only too willing to oblige by making their deal with the devil that guaranteed great financial benefits for the Vatican's prelates. And they enjoyed those benefits throughout the war without interruption.
Pacelli's Vatican was willing to secure the devil in power as long as it feathered their own nests at the same time. And this is Christianity to you???? Is this what you think that Christianity is all about???
Does your "Christianity" support slandering an innocent man?
Obviously your "Catholicism" is unable to discern the difference between innocence and guilt. How many Nazi war criminals escaped to South America through Pius XII's Vatican?
Did Pius XII ever either during the war or afterwards excommunicate those monsigneurs, cardinals, archbishops, priests who were collaborating with the Nazis? or did he reward them with a promotions for their service during the war, like Aloysius Stepinac, the Archbishop of the Ustasha, to whom he gave a cardinals hat after his long service to the Ustasha?
How far are you willing to go to try to resurrect his reputation?
The Concordat was signed in July of 1933. That is after Hitler's appointment by Hindenburg (1/30/33), after the Reichstag Fire (2/27/33), and after the Ermächtigungsgesetz (enabling legislation) that gave Hitler dictatorial powers. Hitler had also already arrested opposition delegates. And Britain, France and Italy had already agreed to the Four-Power Pact with Germany in June.
That is not "tenuously in power".
Moreover, the concordat guaranteed freedom of religion to Catholics in Germany, including the Nazis not shutting down the parochial schools, in exchange for an agreement that Catholic clergy would refrain from politics and the dissolution of a Catholic political party. The so-called "great financial benefits"? -- the right to keep collecting the church tithes. Wow.
Of course the Nazis violated it almost before the ink was dry.
It sent soldiers to fight against the Third Reich, not blessings to its prelates who collaborated with it. It sought justice for Nazi war criminals rather than helping them to escape from justice into South America through Pius XII's Vatican Rat Lines.
That's false.
Regarding your tagline:
TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.
And you can't FIND it.
That sounds like what the government did. I was asking about the specific action of your specific church and its specific church leaders. What did they do? Or is the government your church?
The Concordat didn’t bring Hitler to power.
And that guarantee was at whose expense??? At the expense of other people's religion, their freedom and their lives??? Your prelates were willing to sell others down the pike so that they could continue on unmolested??? And you think that God was pleased with this sell-out???
Can you explain ‘just war’ and justice from a New Testament standpoint with footnotes please?
By July 1933, all other political parties in Germany had been banned and the Enabling Act (the Ermächtigungsgesetz) had been approved by the rump Reichstag, giving Hitler dictatorial powers.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
The devil Corporal already held all the power...all that remained was the death of Hindenberg, and the Gleischaltung. Indeed, by July 1933 the brownshirts had been deputized as law enforcement officers.
And running rat lines for Nazi war criminals: Was that the calling of the Roman Catholic Church or just a special dispensation in Pius XII’s Vatican?
Your understanding of the period is demonstrably deficient (to be polite). You have no credibility on this topic.
One document from the head of Berlin's police force tells Joachim von Ribbentrop, the Third Reich's foreign minister, that the Catholic Church was providing assistance to Jews "both in terms of people and financially."
*************
It makes perfect sense.
The signing of the Concordat was a mere formality of a deal that had been made earlier. But you know that.
No one.
At the expense of other people's religion, their freedom and their lives???
No.
Your prelates were willing to sell others down the pike so that they could continue on unmolested???
No.
And you think that God was pleased with this sell-out???
There was no sell out.
Oh, and Pius XII saved 860,000 Jews from the Holocaust.
It did not bring Hitler to power, but you knew that.
Can you post a list of websites that document the atrocities of the Vatican-supported Ustasha against the Serbs during World War II, and then I'll get busy on it.
You suggested that there was a plan to bring some people to justice, do you care to back up that claim with scripture, or are you fine to abandon Christianity for this thread?
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