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The Selfish Nature of Man means he will only choose God for reward or avoidence of punishment.
Jeremiah Project ^ | 4/22/07 | Rhadaghast

Posted on 04/22/2007 7:20:02 AM PDT by Rhadaghast

I need to desrcibe succinctly several different philosopies of the nature of man. I will also need to support this with citations.

I believe that man is inheirently selfish, prone to promote self above all else. His natural bent will be self gratification devolving into ever lower levels of depravity. Without the tempering influence of the Holy Spirit, or the presence of the conscience there is no hope that man will attempt to do good. The good that he does attempt without these influences or after 'quenching the spirit' or 'searing the conscience' all his efforts result from the basic drive of self gratification; either avoiding pain or persuing pleasure. Even when that action appears to be altruistic it is simply amilerating a sense of guilt or obligation.

Therefore many may choose God simply out of fear of damnation or hope of eternal reward rather than the desire to please God.

Please feel free to present other ideas of man, but be brief.

Thanks.


TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: depravity; freewill; natureofman; postedinwrongforum
I believe this is supported in scripture under verious verses, but one specifically would be Genesis 6:5
1 posted on 04/22/2007 7:20:04 AM PDT by Rhadaghast
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To: Rhadaghast

Not so, as usual with such blanket philosophical statements.

They refuse to see the uniqueness of man and what individual man can choose. I do believe Paul mentions this in Romans.


2 posted on 04/22/2007 7:23:36 AM PDT by padre35 (we are surrounded that simplifies things-Chesty Puller)
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To: Rhadaghast

a curious bump for later reading.


3 posted on 04/22/2007 7:26:12 AM PDT by thiscouldbemoreconfusing
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To: Rhadaghast
Therefore many may choose God simply out of fear of damnation or hope of eternal reward rather than the desire to please God. ...then 'they' won't have many gems in their crowns once they get to heaven, will they? We are told to 'become' Christ-like, to give of ourselves literally and completely, trusting fully in His Will for us, even when we don't understand...if someone only 'loves' God out of fear or greed, then they truly aren't loving God the way they should.
4 posted on 04/22/2007 7:27:38 AM PDT by pillut48 (CJ in TX --Bible Thumper and Proud! RUN, FRED, RUN!!!)
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To: Rhadaghast

Because of our depraved nature, we can’t even choose God unless He graciously allows us to. And He desires that we would all choose Him because of Who He is, not what He can do for us.


5 posted on 04/22/2007 7:29:09 AM PDT by liege
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To: Rhadaghast

Eternal communion with God is the reward I’m looking for. Everyone who goes to Hell will chose it freely. Why would anyone choose Hell? That is a mystery.


6 posted on 04/22/2007 7:30:34 AM PDT by DManA
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To: DManA

Could it be................SATAN?!?!?!

(sorry, I couldn’t resist. ;-)


7 posted on 04/22/2007 7:32:22 AM PDT by pillut48 (CJ in TX --Bible Thumper and Proud! RUN, FRED, RUN!!!)
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To: Rhadaghast

It is grace of man that turns man to God. Selfishness turns man to evil, and thus away from God.

It is Love that man worships when he worships God. There is no selfishness in Love only forgiveness.

Evil is a choice. Love is inherent.


8 posted on 04/22/2007 7:34:09 AM PDT by Porterville (All hail the Prophet Gore, an ass dressed in a lion's skin)
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To: pillut48

The Lord is akin to our Father, now if we can deduce from the natural the spiritual, who loves their Father only because they are afraid that He will punish them? Who loves their Father only because they hope to “get something nice from him”?


9 posted on 04/22/2007 7:37:09 AM PDT by padre35 (we are surrounded that simplifies things-Chesty Puller)
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To: Rhadaghast

Interesting site and a great exposition of the various dead ends which result from separation theology. Thanks.


10 posted on 04/22/2007 7:42:24 AM PDT by AustinBill (consequence is what makes our choices real)
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To: Rhadaghast

I believe that the idea of heaven and hell are really irrelevant to the idea of good and evil-the concept of an eternal reward/punishment makes right no more virtuous and and evil no less reprehensible. I’m a Catholic, and I do my best to live up to the standards of my Savior, as that is the domain of man, but I’m going to let God decide what happens I die, as that is His domain.


11 posted on 04/22/2007 7:43:16 AM PDT by Spok
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To: Rhadaghast

Romans 3:10-12 - As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no not one.

Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 8:14 - For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Commentary: Well, God created us with a brain and feelings that logically SHOULD seek to escape eternal punishment for our sins in the way that He provides; but what most of us really are crying out for is to really know God through the Holy Spirit in the inner man, and He is also crying out to each one of us to just ask Him in. All the religious arguments fall by the wayside with the indwelling Holy Spirit.


12 posted on 04/22/2007 8:43:56 AM PDT by Twinkie (Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God . . .)
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To: Admin Moderator

Would you please post this under the “Religion” category? It’s also a vanity post. Thank you!


13 posted on 04/22/2007 9:35:12 AM PDT by Rhadaghast (Yeshua haMashiach hu Adonai Tsidkenu)
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To: padre35
Not so, as usual with such blanket philosophical statements. They refuse to see the uniqueness of man and what individual man can choose. I do believe Paul mentions this in Romans.

Can you be more specific about the reference please, and do you have a different view of man?

14 posted on 04/22/2007 9:36:34 AM PDT by Rhadaghast (Yeshua haMashiach hu Adonai Tsidkenu)
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To: pillut48
then 'they' won't have many gems in their crowns once they get to heaven, will they?

Jesus pointed out the motivation of people in many instances, specifically when asked what was the greatest commandment. That definitely pointed to movitation and underlying repsonse. Man can still join a church to get fire insurance and now he can join a church for future and current reward, but the motivation as described in I Corinthians means his selfish nature is creating hay, wood and stubble, not gems in a crown. Are you saying you have a different view of man and if so, what is it?

15 posted on 04/22/2007 9:39:10 AM PDT by Rhadaghast (Yeshua haMashiach hu Adonai Tsidkenu)
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To: Rhadaghast
Are you saying you have a different view of man and if so, what is it? Huh? I stated my opinion on this. What are you asking?
16 posted on 04/22/2007 9:41:01 AM PDT by pillut48 (CJ in TX --Bible Thumper and Proud! RUN, FRED, RUN!!!)
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To: liege

It seems you have a strange mix of Armenian and Calvin-istic views here. If we can’t even choose God (Calvinism) then that doesn’t change the selfishness presupposition of my original argument. But if we can choose God for who He is versus what He has done for us, are you excluding Salvation as an act of Christ?


17 posted on 04/22/2007 9:41:07 AM PDT by Rhadaghast (Yeshua haMashiach hu Adonai Tsidkenu)
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To: Rhadaghast

Starting with breakfast.Green eggs and ham.


18 posted on 04/22/2007 10:01:03 AM PDT by hschliemann
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To: hschliemann

Wrong thread moron!


19 posted on 04/22/2007 10:02:48 AM PDT by hschliemann
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To: Rhadaghast

Can you be more specific about the reference please, and do you have a different view of man?

I have a similar view of man in general, but not of individuals specifically, in Romans 4.9 Paul is explaining why Abraham was righteous before God, not out of fear of punishment, nor of hope of reward, but because Abraham believed God, he was considered righteous.

To follow your initial statement would require the elimination of Abraham’s acceptance by God just based on belief.


20 posted on 04/22/2007 10:28:38 AM PDT by padre35 (we are surrounded that simplifies things-Chesty Puller)
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To: Rhadaghast

Interesting topic. Will ping the list later.

But after approaching God with ulterior selfish motives, a person ideally will become less selfish and ultimately develop a loving relationship entirely free of any taint of self interest. This is the goal, and it is possible. Not only possible, it is the only real happiness of the soul (the real self).


21 posted on 04/22/2007 10:53:41 AM PDT by little jeremiah (Only those who thirst for truth can know truth.)
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To: Rhadaghast

Selfishness, fear?

Speak for yourself.
I figure God knows something I don’t. So, in my life, I try to get as near to Right as I can by my God.

“Projection” look it up in Psy. handbook.


22 posted on 04/22/2007 11:49:17 AM PDT by TalBlack
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To: little jeremiah
But after approaching God with ulterior selfish motives, a person ideally will become less selfish and ultimately develop a loving relationship entirely free of any taint of self interest. This is the goal, and it is possible. Not only possible, it is the only real happiness of the soul (the real self).

I agree...People call on the Lord due to many reasons...I didn't asked Jesus to save me because I wanted to please Him...I called on Him because I needed some rest from my desperation...And He was my last choice...

Now once you're saved and filled with the Holy Spirit, it's a different ball game...

I'm sure many people have different stories to tell on how and why they allowed Jesus to rescue them from any number of circumstances...

23 posted on 04/22/2007 12:22:27 PM PDT by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailer park...)
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To: Rhadaghast

While everyone is flawed with sin, and interested in self-promotion, I do believe that there are actually many very good Christians who love God and particularly the second person of the Trinity, Jesus Christ, so much that their good works and holy life style is purely for the love of Him. Also, there is in the heart of a true believer the personal relationship with Jesus, which is not to hurt or cause pain to a beloved one. So, in that respect, I think the above writing has flaws.


24 posted on 04/22/2007 12:32:31 PM PDT by Gumdrop
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To: Rhadaghast
The Selfish Nature of Man means he will only choose God for reward or avoidence of punishment.

What motivation could a rational being have other than to receive a reward or to avoid punishment?

Some might say that we should choose God only to please him, without expectation of reward. However, it would make no sense to please God if the result were eternal punishment.

Of course, a just and righteous God would not punish those who choose to please him. And in fact, the Bible is replete with promises of reward to the faithful (Hebrews 11:6; Matthew 5:12; Revelation 22:12; etc.). Jesus promises that those who give up worldly things for him will receive much more in return, including everlasting life:

And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. (Matt. 19:29)
All things are promised to those who overcome the world:
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. (Rev. 21:7)
I believe that these promises are included in the scriptures because God wants us to seek his rewards. Indeed, Jesus commands us to do so:
19 ¶ Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. (Matthew 6:19–21)


25 posted on 04/22/2007 8:35:45 PM PDT by Logophile
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To: Rhadaghast

Agree with what you have written 100%.


26 posted on 04/23/2007 8:40:43 AM PDT by Kitty Mittens
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