Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

“Hail Goddess full of grace”
California Catholic Daily ^ | April 24, 2007

Posted on 04/25/2007 6:54:31 AM PDT by NYer

“WOW -- coming from RC tradition I thought I’d never return to the Rosary. But here it is and here SHE IS. Blessed be, Mairly.”

The “here” in this message, found on herchurch.org, is Ebenezer Lutheran Church in San Francisco. But the SHE is not the Mother of God. SHE is “God/dess.”

On Wednesdays at 7 p.m., Ebenezer opens its sanctuary for the “Christian Goddess Rosary.” The church says it offers “Goddess Rosary Beads” and that “prayers and suggested meditations will be on hand as well as incense, candles and bells.”

“The Goddess rosary is grounded in traditions of the Christian Church and the proclamation of the gospel which is a vision of release from bondage for a new creation,” says the church’s web site.

The Goddess Rosary page on herchurch.org says that though “God as Father plays an important role” in Christian tradition, its “exclusive emphasis... contributes to a limited understanding of God, an understanding that supports a domination structure that oppresses and subordinates women.” Jesus used “Abba” as a “revolutionary deconstruction of domination structures of his day in both religious and social institutions.” The modern task is to do the same with “Goddess.”

Ebenezer, however, does not want to eradicate masculine images of God but to balance them with feminine images to “confront the biblical texts, products of their day and cultures, for the blatant patriarchal biases and misogynist attitudes.” And herchurch.org cites three Catholic theologians in support this confrontation: Harvard’s Elizabeth Schüssler Fiorenza, Fordham University’s Sister Elizabeth Johnson, and Rosemary Radford Ruether (who will lecture students in the course, “The History of God in Feminist Theological Discourse,” at LA’s Mount St. Mary’s College this spring.) Ruether calls the exclusive use of male imagery for God “idolatry.”

Herchurch.org offers a “Hail Goddess” prayer by feminist theologian Carol Christ, formerly of Harvard Divinity School but now director of the Ariadne Institute for Myth and Ritual in Greece. The prayer goes: “Hail Goddess full of grace. Blessed are you and blessed are all the fruits of your womb. For you are the MOTHER of us all. Hear us now and in all our needs. O blessed be, O blessed be. Amen.”

“I felt that I had stepped into a Presence, like a mother’s warm embrace,” wrote Dalyn Cook of Ebenezer’s Goddess Rosary. “The attendees were few in number, yet there was a sense of fullness in this welcoming space. I inhaled deeply the earthy scent of the incense, sending up delicate tendrils of smoke which curled around the altar in a nimbus visible against the warm rays of the evening sun filtering through the stained-glass windows....

“From the basket of rosaries, I took into my hand a strand of vibrantly-colored beads with a silver goddess icon in place of the traditional cross. The goddesses came in a variety of shapes and sizes, celebrating the beauty of the feminine form; I found reflections of my own figure in the full hips and Rubenesque curves of my goddess,” Cook wrote.


TOPICS: Catholic; Mainline Protestant; Prayer; Worship
KEYWORDS: elca; goddess; hailmary; lillyendowment; lutheran; maryworship; rosary; sanfranciscovalues
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-50 ... 251-300301-350351-400 ... 601-634 next last
To: ladyinred
Thanks kosta for directing me to those posts.

You are most welcome. I hope that clarified my brevity.

301 posted on 04/27/2007 6:13:21 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 297 | View Replies]

To: Iscool; Quix; Salvation; Claud; GoLightly; ladyinred; kosta50; Pyro7480; Marysecretary; rrc; ...
That's the problem with proof-texting... you take it out of context...

Heb 4:11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, that no one fall by the same sort of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And before him no creature is hidden, but all are open and laid bare to the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we have not a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Again, the Word is a person--Jesus Christ--not just a book.

The Protestant Gospel is one of contradictions and legalism. You say that what Christ did on the Cross was complete and sufficient and there is nothing that we are to add to it. Yet in the next breath you say that we are to believe. I'm sorry, but that is adding something to what Christ did on the Cross--your faith. If the Cross was wholly sufficient on its own, we are all saved regardless of our faith because God and man are reconciled. I know you will deny this contradiction, it is after all central to your point of view, but you can argue with St Paul who said...

Col 1:19 For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. 21 And you, who once were estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, 23 provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister. 24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the divine office which was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, 26 the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now made manifest to his saints. 27 To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 28 Him we proclaim, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man mature in Christ.

Paul isn't saying that Christ didn't suffer long enough--that if He'd just held on an hour or two longer we wouldn't need to suffer. No. He's recognizing a central truth that St Augustine recognized, that what happens to the head of the body, must be reproduced in the members of the body. So what Christ suffered on the Cross in His Own Body, He then completes in applying that suffering to His Mystical Body, The Church. It isn't that Christ's suffering wasn't sufficient, it's that it was so sufficient it can be reproduced effectively in us. Just as Peter acknowledges; 1 Peter 1:17 And if you invoke as Father him who judges each one impartially according to his deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile.

Just as we don't delight in the accomplishments of the neighbor kids, our works were as nothing to God before our reconciliation. And just as the neighbor kids can't make themselves part of my family--I have to adopt them--we couldn't reconcile ourselves to God. Now, God does delight and reward our deeds done in His Name. Christ merited for us the ability to merit from God.

There is one place in the Bible (at least a Bible not edited by Martin Luther) where you can find "faith" and "alone" together. It is in James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. The Protestant perspective can't deal with this Biblical reality... so it tends to ignore it.

Martin Luther said that justification is a legal act of juridical imputation whereby a criminal is acquitted.

Yes, we're acquitted... but what for and how? We are acquitted for life in the Family of God. How? We are made part of God's Holy Family through the New Covenant sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross. He was at once priest, sacrifice and Bridegroom. He is mediator of the New Covenant... the one who forged the bond between God and man. What He did was sufficient and complete--we are reconciled to God--but it was the beginning. Just as birth is the beginning of our Earthly lives, Baptism in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is the beginning of our life in Christ. It is not the culmination from which there is no more to be done, it is the beginning from which all else is possible. We're not just sinners being saved, we're sons and daughters being restored to God's Family.

I will tell you the Catholic Gospel in its full simplicity: The Church is the Bride of Christ.

That's it. Nothing more. From this comes the wealth of the faith for understanding our Bridegroom, His Holy Family, the Sacraments and His sacrificial offering that is His wedding feast--but the simplicity of the message is resoundingly clear throughout the Bible for those who will see it.

We know we are members of God's Family the same way our own children know they are members of our families: they share your name, take your discipline, eat at your table, grow to adulthood in your home and are sent to the world in a vocation. When they are sick, you will comfort them and when they are dying, you will be there (if you can be). The same is true of God’s Family here on Earth: we take on His Name in Baptism, we are disciplined and shown mercy in Reconciliation, we eat at His Table in the Eucharist, we grow to our adulthood in Confirmation and are sent to the world in our vocations of Matrimony or Holy Orders. When we are sick or dying, we are attended to by the Church with Extreme Unction. We are the Family of God.

Your challenge of the proof-text from Ephesians is sad really. If you had read the rest of the chapter in context, you might have understood better the Catholic perspective:

Ephesians 6:4 Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord. 5 Slaves, be obedient to those who are your earthly masters, with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as to Christ; 6 not in the way of eye-service, as men-pleasers, but as servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, 7 rendering service with a good will as to the Lord and not to men, 8 knowing that whatever good any one does, he will receive the same again from the Lord, whether he is a slave or free. 9 Masters, do the same to them, and forbear threatening, knowing that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and that there is no partiality with him. 10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having girded your loins with truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the equipment of the gospel of peace; 16 besides all these, taking the shield of faith, with which you can quench all the flaming darts of the evil one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18 Pray at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, 19 and also for me, that utterance may be given me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains; that I may declare it boldly, as I ought to speak.

From you: Well good...You know who the Word of God is...Obviously, you don't hold any reverence for the 'word' of God...

Hardly.

302 posted on 04/27/2007 7:48:45 AM PDT by pgyanke (RUDY GIULIANI 2008 - BECAUSE IF YOU'RE GOING TO COMPROMISE YOUR PRINCIPLES ANYWAY... WHY WAIT?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 300 | View Replies]

Comment #303 Removed by Moderator

To: NYer
The goddess of the New Age Religion. Actually, Old Age Satanism.
304 posted on 04/27/2007 9:03:52 AM PDT by jonrick46
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: pgyanke

Yes, works are important, after faith in Christ. He says faith without works is dead and works without faith is dead. Our faith in Christ is the lynchpin but we ARE commanded to do good works in His name. How can you NOT do them.

Our church most definitely believes that we are part of the Bride of Christ. I know I am! Yes, the Word is Jesus Christ and is living. No argument on either one of these points.

I think you misunderstand a lot of protestant (read non-catholic) beliefs. We’re on the same page on most things,at least those that are scriptural. Blessings, Maryxxx


305 posted on 04/27/2007 9:26:06 AM PDT by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 302 | View Replies]

To: pgyanke
The Protestant Gospel is one of contradictions and legalism. You say that what Christ did on the Cross was complete and sufficient and there is nothing that we are to add to it. Yet in the next breath you say that we are to believe. I'm sorry, but that is adding something to what Christ did on the Cross--your faith.

That's quite a stretch...Believing God and bringing your own righteousness to God are a far cry from being the same thing...You can believe they are the same if you'd like...I won't...

If the Cross was wholly sufficient on its own, we are all saved regardless of our faith because God and man are reconciled. I know you will deny this contradiction, it is after all central to your point of view, but you can argue with St Paul who said...

Col 1:19 For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. 21 And you, who once were estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, 23 provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister. 24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,

Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

Here's the verse in the KJV...Quite a little twist from what your version says...The verse says that Paul welcomes more suffering since although Christ provided a thorn in Paul's flesh, he desired more suffering...Says nothing about Jesus not suffering enough...

So what Christ suffered on the Cross in His Own Body, He then completes in applying that suffering to His Mystical Body, The Church.

Where do you get that the church is a mystical body??? And whatever does that mean???

The formation of the church was a mystery, until it presence was revealed by Paul...

It isn't that Christ's suffering wasn't sufficient, it's that it was so sufficient it can be reproduced effectively in us.

That's not scriptural...Unless you are talking spiritually as in the Spiritual baptism whereby we die, are buried and raised again in baptism...

Just as we don't delight in the accomplishments of the neighbor kids, our works were as nothing to God before our reconciliation. And just as the neighbor kids can't make themselves part of my family--I have to adopt them--we couldn't reconcile ourselves to God. Now, God does delight and reward our deeds done in His Name. Christ merited for us the ability to merit from God.

Good analogy, for my position...Salvation takes place when the child agrees to be adopted...You don't give back adopted children...You do however, reward good kids just as Jesus will reward good Christians...

There is one place in the Bible (at least a Bible not edited by Martin Luther) where you can find "faith" and "alone" together. It is in James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. The Protestant perspective can't deal with this Biblical reality... so it tends to ignore it.

I can't defend Protestants who chose not to believe the word of God...But because they don't believe all of the bible doesn't make your interpretation correct either...You'll notice Paul taught the church that Faith without works is what was attributed to Abraham...Regardless of what James said...

Rom 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

So we can't be justified by works and faith in one place and jusfified by faith only in another place...And you can't run them together...

Rom 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

2Co 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;) Gal 1:2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Phm 1:1 Paul, a prisoner of Jesus Christ, and Timothy our brother, unto Philemon our dearly beloved, and fellow laborer, Phm 1:2 And to our beloved Apphia, and Archippus our fellow soldier, and to the church in thy house:

Jam 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Where's the church??? Where's the beloved??? They're not here...Where are the Getiles Paul was commissioed to preach to??? Gone...This is a different group of people...These are all Jews...

The church was taught faith without works...The twelve tribes of Israel are taught faith AND works...

Until people get this, the bible will be mystical to them...

306 posted on 04/27/2007 9:31:07 AM PDT by Iscool (I'm Back...Now what were your other two wishes???)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 302 | View Replies]

To: pgyanke; Iscool; Quix
John 6:29

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

You are confusing the fruits of the Spirit which come with regeneration, to man's wilfull behavior. No matter what you do on your own initiative, you can't please God.

When an unsaved person gives alms to the poor,and pats himself on the back and says "I am a good person" he has his reward.

307 posted on 04/27/2007 9:37:56 AM PDT by 1000 silverlings ("The Bible is the rock on which our Republic rests." Andrew Jackson, President of U.S.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 302 | View Replies]

To: 1000 silverlings

Amen to that...


308 posted on 04/27/2007 10:09:14 AM PDT by Iscool (I'm Back...Now what were your other two wishes???)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 307 | View Replies]

To: Iscool
Here's the verse in the KJV...Quite a little twist from what your version says...

Well, if we can't even agree on a Bible translation and will throw quotes at one another of the same passage... we're not going to get far. I would ask you, though, to tell me what it means to you to "fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ." Just looking for a plain English translation.

The formation of the church was a mystery, until it presence was revealed by Paul...

So you believe that the rest of Apostles didn't know about the Church until Paul came along after years of persecution to educate them? Didn't they receive the same Spirit?

Salvation takes place when the child agrees to be adopted...

Indeed... and Paul just couldn't wait for the churches he taught to be adopted...Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. (KJV... in your honor)

So we can't be justified by works and faith in one place and jusfified by faith only in another place...And you can't run them together...

Truly, that is a big contradiction... if you don't understand it. Paul was, in most places, not talking about works of charity and mercy... as James was. In nearly all places he references "works", he is talking about the Law. There is no contradiction, only a difference in subject matter. That you see contradiction, should tell you to seek another answer...You'll notice Paul taught the church that Faith without works is what was attributed to Abraham...Regardless of what James said... So now you propose to disprove James?! Talk about arrogance! You may disagree with the Church's interpretation but at least we read the whole Bible.

The church was taught faith without works...The twelve tribes of Israel are taught faith AND works...

I can only pray that the Lord would open the eyes of those who will not see. Amen.

309 posted on 04/27/2007 11:18:58 AM PDT by pgyanke (RUDY GIULIANI 2008 - BECAUSE IF YOU'RE GOING TO COMPROMISE YOUR PRINCIPLES ANYWAY... WHY WAIT?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 306 | View Replies]

To: Iscool
And when you claim that your church is the one, true church, we'll swing that Sword again and draw blood...

Where are you finding instructions for us to use the Sword against one another if & when we disagree?

310 posted on 04/27/2007 11:28:00 AM PDT by GoLightly
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 300 | View Replies]

To: 1000 silverlings
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

What does it mean to "believe" in your interpretation? Most Protestants seem to take the passive approach that belief is of the mind and heart. I would say the Church adds the physical approach such that it isn't enough to confess that you believe... you have to obey. 1 Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing: but the observance of the commandments of God. We are called to obedience. But not the obedience of slaves and servants, the obedience of sons. We reap not the wages of laborers but the inheritance of family.

Abraham followed God from Ur and had a personal relationship with Him for decades before his flesh was marked. Even so, he was commanded to sacrifice his only son to God. He wasn't stopped by the angel at the point of agreement, he was stopped in the attempt. At this, God made His Covenant with Abraham which He fulfilled in Christ.

When we tell our children to get up and go to school it isn't enough that they look at us and "believe" and agree that that would be a good thing--they have to obey! What then are we to do in our belief? These are the works of charity and mercy and we have been given the Sacraments to strengthen us in our labors. When Christ said, "Do this in remembrance of me", we do just as He did and it is made real at the power of His Word as it was when He first accomplished it. This is what "remembrance" meant to the Jews at Passover. It wasn't just a memory they were recalling, they were reliving and making the event real in their homes and hearts. We do the same in the Eucharist and Christ is really and truly present in His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity as He was at the Last Supper.

We obey His commands.

311 posted on 04/27/2007 11:28:39 AM PDT by pgyanke (RUDY GIULIANI 2008 - BECAUSE IF YOU'RE GOING TO COMPROMISE YOUR PRINCIPLES ANYWAY... WHY WAIT?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 307 | View Replies]

To: Marysecretary
I think you misunderstand a lot of protestant (read non-catholic) beliefs.

No, I don't. It's just that so many protestants don't agree with each other. See Iscool's posts and see if you agree with him...

Thank you for your rational conversation.

312 posted on 04/27/2007 11:42:28 AM PDT by pgyanke (RUDY GIULIANI 2008 - BECAUSE IF YOU'RE GOING TO COMPROMISE YOUR PRINCIPLES ANYWAY... WHY WAIT?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 305 | View Replies]

To: romanesq
You have nailed it. The submission of Mary is a story of selflessness. By giving herself to the will of God as his “handmaiden,” she was blessed in her life. This is an example to all people of the world. It is one example that Rosemary Radford Ruether fails to understand because of her feminism which is rooted in pride. Such means that one submit to God in a relationship, that has been facilitated by Jesus Christ; by giving up ones human understanding, one accepts in faith God’s will. Without such understanding that only comes from faith, will those like her fail to achieve the promise of Christianity.
313 posted on 04/27/2007 12:08:23 PM PDT by jonrick46
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: pgyanke; Iscool
Most Protestants seem to take the passive approach that belief is of the mind and heart,

We believe, and the bible tells us, that faith is a gift of God, and doesn't come from us. There is where you stumble

314 posted on 04/27/2007 12:08:40 PM PDT by 1000 silverlings ("The Bible is the rock on which our Republic rests." Andrew Jackson, President of U.S.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 311 | View Replies]

To: pgyanke; Iscool
It's just that so many protestants don't agree with each other.

Our divisions are something which makes the hardness of our hearts public. See Christ's teaching on divorce. Only He has the power to create full unity. Pretending there is unity where there is none doesn't cut it for us. We need Him & awaite His coming to set things to right.

See Iscool's posts and see if you agree with him...

It is proper to ping someone to a post if you talk about them.

315 posted on 04/27/2007 12:08:42 PM PDT by GoLightly
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 312 | View Replies]

To: GoLightly
It is proper to ping someone to a post if you talk about them.

No offense meant just noting a perceived disconnect.

316 posted on 04/27/2007 12:15:41 PM PDT by pgyanke (RUDY GIULIANI 2008 - BECAUSE IF YOU'RE GOING TO COMPROMISE YOUR PRINCIPLES ANYWAY... WHY WAIT?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 315 | View Replies]

To: 1000 silverlings
There is where you stumble

So you say... but you didn't address the issue.

317 posted on 04/27/2007 12:17:54 PM PDT by pgyanke (RUDY GIULIANI 2008 - BECAUSE IF YOU'RE GOING TO COMPROMISE YOUR PRINCIPLES ANYWAY... WHY WAIT?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 314 | View Replies]

To: rrc
anyone of you non catholics out there, especially anti catholics, i can recall over the years as a catholic apologist, i was always told we ‘worshipped mary’ and made her a co-equal to Christ, blah, blah, blah....and it was and is made abundantly clear that we dont...

yet... here is a protestant church, now using a goddess in their worship(?!).....

the very same thing they have always accused Christ’s true church in rome of promulgating...

unbelievable....

Over the years? You just joined in January.

318 posted on 04/27/2007 12:23:06 PM PDT by subterfuge (Today, Tolerance =greatest virtue;Hypocrisy=worst character defect; Discrimination =worst atrocity)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: pgyanke
I didn’t mean to be a scold. To your point... I’ve yet to come across anyone I agree with 100% about everything. I haven’t seen any evidence that we are called upon to all think alike, but instead there is a lot of instruction about how we are to treat those we find ourselves in disagreement with.
319 posted on 04/27/2007 12:23:48 PM PDT by GoLightly
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 316 | View Replies]

To: GoLightly
I’ve yet to come across anyone I agree with 100% about everything.

I don't think we will ever find anyone with whom we will agree 100% on everything. However, on matters of the Church, I don't believe the Apostles would have written the Epistles if they weren't looking to conform the churches to objective truth.

There are still great mysteries to be unraveled and a continuing revelation unfolding--much for us to discuss and discern... but upon the foundations of Christendom, we should be in agreement. It's sad that, in truth, the Reformation split the Church doctrinally when Martin Luther's disagreements were more about ecclesiastical practices. Back to the topic of the thread, Martin Luther had a very strong devotion to Mary. I'm not saying that she is to be elevated as this thread is noting, just that many here have called Catholics to the carpet for our devotions and said they are the sine qua non from which this elevation occurs. I merely point out that if veneration of Mary as the Theotokos were the issue of the Reformation, there wouldn't be protestants today.

320 posted on 04/27/2007 12:31:44 PM PDT by pgyanke (RUDY GIULIANI 2008 - BECAUSE IF YOU'RE GOING TO COMPROMISE YOUR PRINCIPLES ANYWAY... WHY WAIT?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 319 | View Replies]

To: pgyanke
I don't think we will ever find anyone with whom we will agree 100% on everything. However, on matters of the Church, I don't believe the Apostles would have written the Epistles if they weren't looking to conform the churches to objective truth.

Which do you think is more important, conformity or the interaction between us as we work together to figure it out? I'm not saying there is no objective truth, because I believe there is. The Apostles were men, so why should I concern myself with their desires?

There are still great mysteries to be unraveled and a continuing revelation unfolding--much for us to discuss and discern... but upon the foundations of Christendom, we should be in agreement.

Despite all of the attempts by men to make that happen in the past, "heresies" erupt & it began before the foundations of Christendom were laid.

It's sad that, in truth, the Reformation split the Church doctrinally when Martin Luther's disagreements were more about ecclesiastical practices.

The division was already there. The Reformation brought the hardness of heart out into the light, where it could be seen & the community could begin to work together to try to break it down. Willful children that we are, we cling to our hardness of heart & try to prove that our differences are the other guys fault.

Back to the topic of the thread, Martin Luther had a very strong devotion to Mary. I'm not saying that she is to be elevated as this thread is noting, just that many here have called Catholics to the carpet for our devotions and said they are the sine qua non from which this elevation occurs. I merely point out that if veneration of Mary as the Theotokos were the issue of the Reformation, there wouldn't be protestants today.

I agree.

321 posted on 04/27/2007 1:19:13 PM PDT by GoLightly
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 320 | View Replies]

To: GoLightly
Which do you think is more important, conformity or the interaction between us as we work together to figure it out?

Depends. Conformity in the areas of settled doctrine and dogma. Interaction and working together (in cooperation with the Magisterium of the Church) in areas of unfolding revelation. It's very difficult to call all people to the Truth while acknowledging that no one can agree on what that Truth is. There have to common areas of settled doctrine. Thankfully, we have that with our Protestant brethren on about 95% of doctrine. Where we are not in conformity, we are called to lovingly reprove for the strength of the Church.

We were meant to be one Bride and I pray we will be again soon.

322 posted on 04/27/2007 1:37:01 PM PDT by pgyanke (RUDY GIULIANI 2008 - BECAUSE IF YOU'RE GOING TO COMPROMISE YOUR PRINCIPLES ANYWAY... WHY WAIT?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 321 | View Replies]

To: pgyanke
Depends. Conformity in the areas of settled doctrine and dogma. Interaction and working together (in cooperation with the Magisterium of the Church) in areas of unfolding revelation. It's very difficult to call all people to the Truth while acknowledging that no one can agree on what that Truth is.

Depends? Dotting all of the "i's" & crossing all of the "t's" can sometimes more important than the way we feel about each other? Are we little more than salesmen, trying to make sure we have a worthy product for the market? What if our "product" is more like an invitation to join us in love, to work together with us in trying figuring it all out?

36 Master, which is the greatest commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind. 38 This is the greatest and the first commandment. 39 And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 40 On these two commandments dependeth the whole law and the prophets.

There have to common areas of settled doctrine. Thankfully, we have that with our Protestant brethren on about 95% of doctrine. Where we are not in conformity, we are called to lovingly reprove for the strength of the Church.

Think it's possible that process & product can be one & the same in any way?

We were meant to be one Bride and I pray we will be again soon.

Funny, that statement is within that 5% territory...

323 posted on 04/27/2007 2:10:05 PM PDT by GoLightly
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 322 | View Replies]

To: GoLightly
36 Master, which is the greatest commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind. 38 This is the greatest and the first commandment. 39 And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 40 On these two commandments dependeth the whole law and the prophets.

You have summed up the Catholic Gospel I wrote about in #302 nicely. Again, we are simply the Bride of Christ joined to the Family of God. We are one as He and the Father are One. Therefore, the whole Law and history are summed in loving God before all and loving our neighbors as ourselves--because they are our siblings under a loving Father. Just as you want your children to love one another, so does our Heavenly Father. It doesn't have to be more complicated than that.

Depends? Dotting all of the "i's" & crossing all of the "t's" can sometimes more important than the way we feel about each other?

I'm sorry you feel that way about doctrine and dogma. They illuminate the central reality. It's not about the punctuation, it's about our Life in Christ.

What I mean in pointing out that it's very difficult to call all people to the Truth while acknowledging that no one can agree on what that Truth is is that if we don't offer the Way, the Truth and the Life... what do we offer? There is real, hard and objective Truth. Where Christians can't agree on some of our core tenents hurts our message to the masses. We bicker like children.

324 posted on 04/27/2007 2:22:03 PM PDT by pgyanke (RUDY GIULIANI 2008 - BECAUSE IF YOU'RE GOING TO COMPROMISE YOUR PRINCIPLES ANYWAY... WHY WAIT?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 323 | View Replies]

Comment #325 Removed by Moderator

To: pgyanke

Well, dear one, we will be but we won’t all be catholics. A time is coming, sooner than we may think, when all these differences between us won’t matter one bit. We are heading for some real problems in America and as people of faith, WE have to lead by example, to show Christ’s love and our peace to those who have neither. I pray we’re all up to it. Mxxx


326 posted on 04/27/2007 7:24:45 PM PDT by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 322 | View Replies]

To: pgyanke

All religions and denominations have error and some heresy because HUMANS lead them and populate them. We’re so proud of our opinions and much of it is not even based in scripture. Scripture is the lynchpin. It takes time and effort in reading our Bible to learn about God and what He wants from us. He wants intimacy with us. He loves us so much that nothing else matters to Him but a relationship with us. What a wonderful God!


327 posted on 04/27/2007 7:28:12 PM PDT by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 312 | View Replies]

To: pgyanke
You have summed up the Catholic Gospel I wrote about in #302 nicely.

I certainly can't take the credit for it...

Again, we are simply the Bride of Christ joined to the Family of God. We are one as He and the Father are One. Therefore, the whole Law and history are summed in loving God before all and loving our neighbors as ourselves--because they are our siblings under a loving Father.

Yep!

Just as you want your children to love one another, so does our Heavenly Father. It doesn't have to be more complicated than that.

Exactly right. It doesn't have to be any more complicated than that. I'm sorry you feel that way about doctrine and dogma. They illuminate the central reality. It's not about the punctuation, it's about our Life in Christ.

My point isn't about my "feelings" about doctrine and dogma, except when our striving to come to perfect understanding causes us to miss the message. Helping each other, working together, seeking perfection together should bring us together, not divide us. If it divides us we're doing something wrong. Division reveals hardness in our hearts. We're looking to ourselves, instead of looking to God.

What I mean in pointing out that it's very difficult to call all people to the Truth while acknowledging that no one can agree on what that Truth is is that if we don't offer the Way, the Truth and the Life... what do we offer?

He wants us to pretend that we have figured out all of the answers? We offer everything we are in love!

There is real, hard and objective Truth. Where Christians can't agree on some of our core tenents hurts our message to the masses. We bicker like children.

There is real, hard & objective Truth. Do we seek it together or do we beat each other over the head until people keep their disagreement to themselves, letting it fester & eat away at them.

328 posted on 04/27/2007 9:33:10 PM PDT by GoLightly
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 324 | View Replies]

To: Marysecretary
I've enjoyed our conversation very much and don't want to beat this poor horse more than necessary... but I thought I would make one more point with you...

It takes time and effort in reading our Bible to learn about God and what He wants from us.

Yes... and the Catholic Church has been at it for 2000 years. There is much we admit we don't understand... we're only human... but we follow faithfully despite that and keep learning.

He wants intimacy with us.

Here's where I'm going to blow your mind and lose you altogether... but I'm going to try anyway.

If you've been in conversation with many Catholics on FR, you have probably come to realize that we view the events of Revelation as current history, not just future prophecy. The Wedding Feast of the Lamb occurred in real time when Jesus hung on the Cross as the New Covenant sacrifice (sacrifice has always been the central element to covenant formation). Bear in mind that covenants form families. So that was the Wedding Feast and the New Heaven and New Earth were inaugurated. The old passed away when the Jews rejected Jesus and their world ended in 70 AD... within the lifespan of the generation that crucified Jesus, as He had said it would. When we go to Mass each week, we are present in the Holy Gathering where the Lamb--Who appears as slain--offers Himself to God for our sins along with all believers, living and passed on to glory.

So you know that we see the Mass as the Wedding Feast real and present before us. However, when is a marriage consummated? It certainly isn't when the wedding is performed... at least not at the weddings I've attended... it's when the two who are joined become one flesh in love. We, the Body of Christ that is the Church, receive the essence of our Bridegroom when we receive His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Holy Eucharist.

Jesus wants a personal relationship with us, yes. But not the personal relationship we have with our neighbor or our barber--He wants the relationship of a Husband to his Bride. You want intimacy in Christ... THAT'S intimacy.

Once again, the Catholic Gospel in its simplicity is that the Church is the Bride of Christ... from there all other mysteries begin to make sense.

329 posted on 04/28/2007 6:20:47 AM PDT by pgyanke (RUDY GIULIANI 2008 - BECAUSE IF YOU'RE GOING TO COMPROMISE YOUR PRINCIPLES ANYWAY... WHY WAIT?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 327 | View Replies]

To: GoLightly
If it divides us we're doing something wrong.

Not necessarily.

Luke 12:51 "Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division; 52 for henceforth in one house there will be five divided, three against two and two against three; 53 they will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against her mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law."

It could mean we're doing something right. God bless you and have a good weekend!

330 posted on 04/28/2007 6:25:08 AM PDT by pgyanke (RUDY GIULIANI 2008 - BECAUSE IF YOU'RE GOING TO COMPROMISE YOUR PRINCIPLES ANYWAY... WHY WAIT?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 328 | View Replies]

To: pgyanke

We’re acting true to our natures, but that doesn’t make us right.


331 posted on 04/28/2007 7:14:19 AM PDT by GoLightly
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 330 | View Replies]

To: pgyanke

I know the eucharist is very important in the Catholic faith. Protestants do not believe that the eucharist is the body of Christ. We take communion in remembrance of Him. I believe God DOES want us to have intimacy with Him as we would a beloved friend as well as the husband and wife relationship. I have no problem with that at all. He loves us as His very own child and He is all things to all of us, including husband, friend, brother, sister, etc. I don’t think we can separate that.

I also don’t believe that most Catholics have been encouraged to read their own bibles but to have a priest interpret it during sermons, etc. I hope that’s changed but it certainly never used to be the case. My husband and his best friend, who was our pastor for 25 years, were both brought up in the Catholic church and many of my friends were Catholic when I was growing up. They were not encouraged to read scripture for themselves at that time. I do hope that’s different now.

There is much that is similar in both Catholic and Protestant denominations and we should never lose sight of that. We get separated when we insist on doctrinal differences. The time will come when those things won’t matter because we’ll be fighting for our very lives and God will be in the midst of it with us.


332 posted on 04/28/2007 7:29:25 AM PDT by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 329 | View Replies]

To: GoLightly; Kolokotronis; Agrarian; kawaii; FormerLib; The_Reader_David
Sorry for a late response, I took a 48-hour "sabbatical" from the FR, just to remind myself there is life elsewhere. :)

Intent? You know what people have in their hearts?

No, that is known but to them and God. We know when our intent in ungodly. If we presume otherwise, then we should all go to heaven.

We seem to be pretty good at that, creating problems Our favorite past time.

Pray for them [people prostrating for Mary but not for Holy Trinity)?

No! If a priest were to pray for them, he would have already judged them. Their intent is not to offend God.

but wouldn't know where to begin in doing the same with any of the Orthodox churches in my area

Ask any of the above pinged people, or me, if you so choose. They are all wonderful orthodox Christians (I am more like Leo Tolstoy, you might say, somewhat pigheaded).

I was married in a Roman Catholic church, back when a marriage included a full Mass

Imagine that! Good news is, we Orthodox still do. Our Catholic brothers and sisters used to be Orthodox too, and many are rediscovering the beauty of being Orthodox again, after so many centuries. :)

I'll never forget the looks of shocked horror at my questioning my exclusion from partaking in the Eucharist. That which is a spiritual hospital to you comes with some rather high immovable barriers for me

Well, they did the right thing. The Eucharist is not a means to achieving, but an expression of theological union. Since the Eastern Orthodox Churches still have several rather serious theological disagreements with the Church in Rome, neither can we nor can the Latins partake of each others Eucharist.

Pope Benedict XVI was received at the Orthodox Ecumenical Patriarchy in Istanbul, Turkey, as primus inter pares (first among equals), but because he doesn't teach orthodox doctrine, neither did he nor did any of his entourage partake in the Eucharist, and they knew not to ask for it.

333 posted on 04/28/2007 5:03:32 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 299 | View Replies]

To: Quix
I can’t help but see the short link from worshiping Mary to worshiping a goddess. And please don’t tell me Mary isn’t worshiped. She’s prayed to, sung to, feasted, adored, festooned with flowers, etc. What is that if not worship?

Here is how I have always seen it: I believe in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. I believe in life beyond this world because of God's redemptive plan of salvation. Therefore heaven is a communion of people who are alive. That includes the Blessed Virgin.

Now, God taught us to pray and it is considered a moral good to pray for each other. I pray for you and you pray for me. Why not ask prayer from the people who have made it? Those who have fought the fight and finished the race? Mary was at the foot of the Cross. Why would I not want her to pray for me and intercede for me? Who is closer to Jesus than her?

If you look at any authentic Roman Catholic prayer you will see that it is one of intercession and not worship. There is an abundance of evidence of this from the CCC to a simple prayer books. Check it out.

334 posted on 04/28/2007 5:16:34 PM PDT by fidèle
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 180 | View Replies]

To: fidèle; Dr. Eckleburg; fortheDeclaration; HarleyD; Alex Murphy; Blogger; Marysecretary

Why not ask prayer from the people who have made it?
= = =

BECAUSE

NO WHERE

IN THE NEW TESTAMENT

DID CHRIST, THE LIVING WORD, unequivocally so instruct His followers.

AND

There are several points in the NT where The Father seems to go to extra lengths to insist that HIS SON ALONE IS WORTHY; HIS SON ALONE IS SUPREME INTERCESSOR.

And going to lessers WHEN GOD ALMIGHTY INSTRUCTS US CLEARLY TO GO TO THE SUPREME INTERCESSOR

IS MUCH MORE

than a little

CHEEKY.

It COULD be construed as insulting or even rebellion or blasphemy.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

You have an only child—a son. The apple of your eye.

He grows up very obediently. He goes to college and performs with honors . . . going off to the Navy as an officer where he distinguishes himself in several battles.

He comes home after 6 years ready to join you in the family firm. You make clear to him, being at least 10% as well heeled as Bill Gates, that IF he has any need whatsoever, he is to come to you directly. That it is your delight to serve him and train him directly.

After about 6 months, you are hearing reports from all over that he is going to your secretary; to his uncle; to the janitor; to your personal valet; to your driver; to the gardner; to your wife—his mother; to your sister; to his grandmother; seemingly he’s going to everyone under the sun but to you. But you know your instructions were very clear—that he was to come DIRECTLY TO YOU. THAT IT WAS YOUR DELIGHT TO HEAR HIS REQUESTS AND MEET THEM.

But he seems to want to have none of it.

And your feelings and attitude would be?


335 posted on 04/28/2007 5:41:52 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 334 | View Replies]

To: Quix
because NO WHERE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT DID CHRIST, THE LIVING WORD, unequivocally so instruct His followers. AND There are several points in the NT where The Father seems to go to extra lengths to insist that HIS SON ALONE IS WORTHY; HIS SON ALONE IS SUPREME INTERCESSOR.

Amen.

"That God's word damns your ceremonies it is evident; for the plain and straight commandment of God is, 'Not that thing which appears good in thy eyes shalt thou do to the Lord thy God, but what the Lord thy God has commanded thee; that do thou; add nothing to it; diminish nothing from it.' Now unless you are able to prove that God has commanded your ceremonies, this his former commandment will damn both you and them." -- John Knox (Knox, Works, 1:199. Cf. Calvin, The Necessity of Reforming the Church, in Tracts, 1:128-29.)

336 posted on 04/28/2007 5:49:05 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 335 | View Replies]

To: Quix
And for good measure...

"The Bible is thought of as authoritative on everything of which it speaks.  Moreover, it speaks of everything.  We do not mean that it speaks of football games, of atoms, etc., directly, but we do mean that it speaks of everything either directly or by implication.  It tells us not only of the Christ and his work, but it also tells us who God is and where the universe about us has come from.  It tells us about theism as well as about Christianity.  It gives us a philosophy of history as well as history.  Moreover, the information on these subjects is woven into an inextricable whole.  It is only if you reject the Bible as the word of God that you can separate the so-called religious and moral instructions of the Bible from what it says, e.g., about the physical universe." --  Cornelius Van Til, Christian Apologetics (Phillipsburg, NJ:  Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Co., 1976), p.2.

337 posted on 04/28/2007 5:55:01 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 335 | View Replies]

To: Quix

So you don’t ask friends and loved ones to pray for you? How odd.


338 posted on 04/28/2007 6:32:49 PM PDT by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 335 | View Replies]

To: Quix

By the way, the Orthodox always pray to God as well as asking our friends and loved ones to pray for us as well.

So, you see, your analogy is so off the mark as to be quite silly.


339 posted on 04/28/2007 6:34:48 PM PDT by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 335 | View Replies]

To: FormerLib; Dr. Eckleburg; Alex Murphy; HarleyD; fortheDeclaration

My friends are not graduated from this life when I ask them to pray for me.

Christ spoke of a gulf between the living and the dead.

I believe CHRIST ABOUT THAT GULF. I don’t seek to vainly try and circumvent it with my trumped-up construction on spiritual reality and prayer.


340 posted on 04/28/2007 6:39:59 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 338 | View Replies]

To: FormerLib; Dr. Eckleburg; Alex Murphy; HarleyD; fortheDeclaration

It strikes me as more than a normal straw dog . . . a kind of specially and elaborately constructed straw dog.

Mary is lofted to a pseudo place of very near equality with Christ in a list of ways . . .

such as

FAULTY MARIOLOGY = FAULTY CHRISTOLOGY

YIELDING MARY = CHRIST

QUEEN OF HEAVEN

MOTHER OF US ALL

ASSUMED, PRESUMED, PRETENDED SINLESS

ROBBED OF HER OTHER CHILDREN

yet, claimed as equal to friends living on earth that one asks for prayer.

Which is it?

Is she worthy all this adoration and veneration or is she just one of the gals down the street that one asks for prayer?


341 posted on 04/28/2007 6:43:28 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 338 | View Replies]

To: FormerLib

It matters not that you think the analogy silly.

It matters a LOT if Jesus thinks it quite fitting.


342 posted on 04/28/2007 6:46:50 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 339 | View Replies]

To: FormerLib

I think most of us ask others to pray for us, especially those who are anointed for healing, but we don’t pray TO anyone but God in Jesus’ name.


343 posted on 04/28/2007 6:47:18 PM PDT by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 339 | View Replies]

To: Quix
My friends are not graduated from this life when I ask them to pray for me.

So you believe that none who have left this life are still alive in Christ?

344 posted on 04/28/2007 7:18:09 PM PDT by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 340 | View Replies]

To: Marysecretary
...but we don’t pray TO anyone but God in Jesus’ name.

Neither do we but we do ask the Saints to pray for us.

It is, above all, an affirmation of our faith in Christ's triumph over death.

345 posted on 04/28/2007 7:19:51 PM PDT by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 343 | View Replies]

To: FormerLib

Many are alive in Christ in Heaven.

And abiding by God’s wishes for their lives there and avoiding tampering with the gulf GOD fixed between there and here.

Resisting God’s ways and boundaries is not a good way to win HIS favor.


346 posted on 04/28/2007 7:22:48 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 344 | View Replies]

To: FormerLib

So, tell me . . .

YOU’VE NEVER

heard an RC talk about praying

TO Mary

or

TO Joseph???


347 posted on 04/28/2007 7:24:02 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 345 | View Replies]

To: NYer
Yeah, "herchurch" has been around for awhile now. And the (ELCA)Lutheran hierarchy does absolutely nothing about it even though it is well-known to them. Like so many of the go-alongs in the ECUSA, they simply refuse to deal with evil in their midst. Why I no longer identify myself as a Lutheran.
348 posted on 04/28/2007 7:32:43 PM PDT by hinckley buzzard
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Quix

Amen to your post. 1Tim.2:5, Heb.7:25


349 posted on 04/29/2007 5:51:58 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (For what saith the scripture? (Rom.4:3))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 335 | View Replies]

To: Quix
So, tell me . . . YOU’VE NEVER heard an RC talk about praying TO Mary or TO Joseph???

So, tell me...

You've never actually listened to the prayer where they ask Mary to pray for them?

Why is your heart so hardened toward another Christian asking for a loved one to pray for them?

350 posted on 04/29/2007 6:21:37 AM PDT by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 347 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-50 ... 251-300301-350351-400 ... 601-634 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson