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John MacArthur's Prophetic Confusion
American Vision ^ | 4/24/2007 | Gary DeMar

Posted on 04/26/2007 8:07:01 AM PDT by topcat54

I just received a book notice from Moody Press for a new commentary on Revelation by John MacArthur with the title Because the Time is Near. At this time I will forego a critique of MacArthur’s use of “near” to describe an event he believes is “near” while the use of “near” by New Testament writers (e.g., James 5:8; Rev. 1:3) did not mean “near” when they used the same word.

For years, I have been dealing with issues related to the last days. I got involved in this topic because Christians were using last-days theology as a way to explain the state of the world and why Christians can’t do anything to reverse present trends. MacArthur is representative of this view when he writes, “‘Reclaiming’ the culture is a pointless, futile exercise. I am convinced,” he writes, “we are living in a post-Christian society—a civilization that exists under God’s judgment.”1 A good case could be made that the people in Europe in the fifteenth century were living under a similar “post-Christian society.” Here’s how Samuel Eliot Morison opens his 1942 biography on Christopher Columbus:

At the end of the year 1492 most men in Western Europe felt exceedingly gloomy about the future. Christian civilization appeared to be shrinking in area and dividing into hostile units as its sphere contracted. For over a century there had been no important advance in natural science, and registration in the universities dwindled as the instruction they offered became increasingly jejune [immature] and lifeless. Institution s were decaying, well-meaning people were growing cynical or desperate, and many intelligent men, for want of something better to do, were endeavoring to escape the present through the study of the pagan past.

Islam was now expanding at the expense of Christendom. . . . The Ottoman Turks, after snuffing out all that remained of the Byzantine Empire, had overrun most of Greece, Albania and Serbia; presently they would be hammering at the gates of Vienna.2

Sound familiar? Change 1492 to any modern date, and the above description of the world of Columbus would fit just as well today. All the major characters and signs are once again in place, or so it seems.

Prophecy pundits in the fifteenth century were sure that the end was near, just as those five hundred years before them knew it was near, and five hundred years before them.

The end of the world: the idea was taken quite seriously by Europe of the late fifteenth century—not as a mere conceit, not as a metaphor or theological trope, but as a somber, ter rifying prediction based solidly on the divine wisdom of biblical prophecy and the felt experience of daily life. . . .[I]n the words of Joseph Grünpeck, the official historian to the Hapsburg emperor Frederick III, “When you perceive the miserable corrupt ion of the whole of Christendom, of all praiseworthy customs, rules and laws, the wretchedness of all classes, the many pestilences, the changes in this epoch and all the strange happenings, you know that the End of the World is near. And the waters of aff liction will flow over the whole of Christendom.”3

As history attests, it was the end of the world, the end of a stagnant worldview that left people without any future hope. But a mere 25 years later, history took a dramatic change in direction. Through a single act, Martin Luther reclaimed the Bible, the gospel, and culture when he confronted a corrupt church. The rest, as they say, is history.

What makes today’s speculations about the end any more reliable? Why are today’s prophecy writers any more trustworthy? They aren’t. Prophetic texts that applied to the generation of Jesus’ day (Matt. 24:34) are being misapplied to our generation. This is a huge mistake that has significant implications theologically and culturally. Prophecy books like those of Mac Arthur are only adding to the confusion.


1. John F. MacArthur, The Vanishing Conscience: Drawing the Line in a No-Fault, Guilt-Free World (Dallas, TX: Word, 1994), 12.

2. Samuel Eliot Morison, Admiral of the Ocean Sea: A Life of Christopher Columbus (Boston: Little, Brown and Company, 1942), 3.

3. Kirkpatrick Sale, The Conquest of Paradise: Christopher Columbus and the Columbian Legacy (New York: Alfred F. Knopf, 1990), 29–30.


Gary DeMar is president of American Vision and the author of more than 20 books. His latest is Whoever Controls the Schools Rules the World.
Permission to reprint granted by American Vision P.O. Box 220, Powder Springs, GA 30127, 800-628-9460.


TOPICS: Current Events; General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: dispensationalism; eschatology; jesusallprophecy
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1 posted on 04/26/2007 8:07:03 AM PDT by topcat54
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To: ItsOurTimeNow; HarleyD; suzyjaruki; nobdysfool; jkl1122; Calvinist_Dark_Lord; Dr. Eckleburg; ...
Reformed Eschatology Ping List (REPL)

"For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." (Luke 21:22)

2 posted on 04/26/2007 8:08:38 AM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: topcat54

Sorry, Mr DeMar, I will go with Dr MacArthur. His position is biblical...yours is not. I have known Dr MacArthur since my seminary days in the late 1970’s. His track record is far more reliable than yours.


3 posted on 04/26/2007 8:45:53 AM PDT by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: topcat54
"MacArthur....writes, “‘Reclaiming’ the culture is a pointless, futile exercise."

I would disagree with MacArthur here, (as would Paul the Apostle).
"Fight the good fight" and "run the race" do not exactly conjure up a vision of defeatism.
We are to be "salt and light", not just throw our hands up and say: "why bother - Christ will be here soon anyway".

We are disciples of Christ.
Our past is redeemed, our present makes sense and our future is secure.
We will not flinch in the face of sacrifice, hesitate in the presence of adversity, or negotiate with the enemy.
We will give until we drop, preach all we know and work until He comes. (And when He comes to get His own, He will have no problem recognizing us.)

"I am not ashamed of the Gospel". Romans 1:16

4 posted on 04/26/2007 8:59:50 AM PDT by Psalm 73 ("Gentlemen, you can't fight in here - this is the War Room".)
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To: LiteKeeper
His track record is far more reliable than yours.

Track record on what?

5 posted on 04/26/2007 9:11:46 AM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: topcat54
“‘Reclaiming’ the culture is a pointless, futile exercise. I am convinced,” he writes, “we are living in a post-Christian society—a civilization that exists under God’s judgment.”

And thus the Dispensationalist reveals his schizophrenia towards the Blood of Christ.

Those of us approaching this from the POV of Postmillennialism and the Reformation would say the blood of Christ is capable of redeeming everything affected by the Fall. As Christ's blood flows outward via the repentant/obedient soul, as it is compounded by an increasing number of repentant/obedient souls, His redemption will effect a progressive change in culture and politics and art and everything produced by man. It is never too late to repent, never to late to be redeemed, never to late to see positive change in both one's personal life and in society and culture, as the story of Jonah and Ninevah demonstrate for us.

But others (not all) approach this from other POVs, especially Scofield-flavored Dispensational Premillennialism, and they would say no, the Rapture-era culture will not (cannot?) be redeemed by anything - including a wholesale repentance and conversion of the population - other than by the physical return of Christ. If you extrapolate backwards from this position, you discover that living one's life for Christ in any era doesn't add up to jack squat statistically or sociologically, whereas living one's life for Satan has a statistically measurable, progressively successful effect on society in every era.

How effective do you think the Dispensationalist's sales pitch is re winning men and women for Christ, once the prospective convert discovers this a priori pessimism towards the efficacy of Christ's blood?


I'm a victor in Christ!

6 posted on 04/26/2007 9:24:24 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
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To: topcat54
Biblical exposition and interpretation.

800+ MacArthur sermons

His radio ministry

Blog site

7 posted on 04/26/2007 9:31:22 AM PDT by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: Alex Murphy
Dispensationalism fits quite well with the fundamentalist (MacArthur is really a fundamentalist) view that Christianity is essentially a personal religion. That is, the Christian faith is essentially personal fire insurance to keep us from the terrible things that will happen in the future, like the Great Tribulation here on earth, or the lake of fire in the sweet bye and bye.

The irony here is the Christian Zionist subculture within the dispensationalist/fundamentalist group, which has a high regard for Israel as a political entity, a nation which is seen as capable of transforming itself based on a (highly flawed) interpretation of God’s Holy Word.

IOW, God’s earthly chosen people are able to affect their political and cultural surroundings while God’s heavenly chosen people are not.

Further, they admit that it is this carnal people who are superior to the spiritual. After all, in the futurist scheme of things it is not until Jesus physically returns to earth to carnally rule over the nations with a literal rod of iron from a literal throne in literal old Jerusalem that there is real gospel success. Christ is really incapable of “making disciples of all nations” until the futurist millennium.

I hear you knockin'
But you can't come in
I hear you knockin'
Go back where you've been

8 posted on 04/26/2007 9:42:45 AM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: LiteKeeper
"Sorry, Mr DeMar, ... His track record is far more reliable than yours."

Quantity does not equate to reliability. And on this subject his "track record" is merely speculative since he does not know if any of these thing will happen as he suggests.

9 posted on 04/26/2007 9:46:20 AM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: topcat54
He makes some rather firm statements, and criticizes MacArthur,...based on his speculation?

MacArthur does careful exegesis of the Book of the Revelation, and others (i.e., Daniel, etc)...and makes firm statements based on that careful study. My choice is to go with John...and I don't expect anyone else to follow me. That's just my choice.

10 posted on 04/26/2007 2:39:42 PM PDT by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: topcat54

Thanks for the ping. I too love Pastor John and have learned much from his Biblical exposition. However, I must part with him in the matter of Eschatology. I pray the Lord will open his eyes.

I was 23 years old before I became aware that Scofield’s notes were not “verbally inspired.” I now believe that “dispensationalism” is one of the worse heresies ever visited upon the Church. Praise God that today there are many rising up to refute this heresy.

The Church Militant will become, by God’s Grace, The Church Triumphant!!!!


11 posted on 04/26/2007 4:17:52 PM PDT by sola gracia (Living in Victory because of the Cross)
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To: topcat54; Alex Murphy; LiteKeeper
While I enjoy MacArthur writings and credit him with steering me towards the Reformed belief, I think he might be a bit over the top on this one. Christians, no matter what society shows around them, are victorious. When Elijah bemoaned the fact that he along was left, God told him to pull himself together. However, today isn't any better or worst than it was in Rome or the Middle Ages as far as God's movement goes (at least we have indoor plumbing). Christians have such a defeatest attitude.

No man knows the day or time. I happen to agree that the time is short but not based upon my surroundings or some prophetic writings strung together. I have my own personal heretical beliefs on this subject. But it doesn't matter what I believe. God is working out his will and when the time is right-that's all folks.

I'll have to email MacArthur. I'm disappointed he has this view. He needs to lighten up.

BTW-I wonder if Litekeeper would be so keen on MacArthur's view of election.

12 posted on 04/26/2007 5:27:59 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD

I adhere 100% to his teaching position of election.


13 posted on 04/26/2007 5:45:44 PM PDT by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: HarleyD
I'll have to email MacArthur. I'm disappointed he has this view. He needs to lighten up.

I can assure you his position comes from diligent study of the Word, to which he devotes massive amounts of time and prayer. And it comes from 30+ years of studying and teaching the Word. He does not come by his positions lightly. He is one of the most diligent students of the Word that I know of...and it is always bathed in prayer.

14 posted on 04/26/2007 5:49:01 PM PDT by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: LiteKeeper; Alex Murphy; HarleyD

MacArthur seems to have been born an independent fundamentalist dispensationalist who later adopted Calvinistic soteriology and modified his dispensationalism a bit. He still holds membership in the Independent Fundamental Churches of America (IFCA) even though his soteriology seems to be at odds what that group’s position.

He just hasn’t gone far enough in his studies and chucked dispensationalism entirely.


15 posted on 04/26/2007 6:12:48 PM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: LiteKeeper; Alex Murphy; HarleyD
MacArthur does careful exegesis of the Book of the Revelation, and ...

I've listen to quite a bit of MacArthur. I heard him speak at the recent Ligioner Conference. He does a very good job exegeting the Scripture when the topic is soteriology. When he gets into eschatology, I find his exegesis very forced and less confident. I recently heard a sermon on 1 Cor. 15 and his forced explanation of four resurrections when the text only identifies two (Christ's and His people) was painful to listen to.

I get the impression that he is not very comfortable with his position.

16 posted on 04/26/2007 6:19:10 PM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: LiteKeeper
I can assure you his position comes from diligent study of the Word, to which he devotes massive amounts of time and prayer.

Many people of many persuasions can make the same claims and come to different conclusions. It is Gnostic thinking to simply read the Bible and believe something pop into our heads. This view was never the church's view for over 1900 years. One should raise questions.

I think people get caught up in all sorts of issues regardless of age. David and Solomon both committed their greatest errors after years of walking with the Lord. And if you'll recall, Job and his friends were chastised by their younger friend. Age is a poor gauge of spirituality.

17 posted on 04/27/2007 2:23:22 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: topcat54; LiteKeeper; Alex Murphy
He does a very good job exegeting the Scripture when the topic is soteriology. When he gets into eschatology, I find his exegesis very forced and less confident.

I agree. I actually like John MacArthur very much. I have a number of his books, his commentaries and we support his ministry. I just think he gets carried away at times (like his Lordship Salvation issue).

For the record, I believe the doctrine of election is far more critical to understand than eschatology. One is the milk; the other the meat.

18 posted on 04/27/2007 4:21:17 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: topcat54
MacArthur seems to have been born an independent fundamentalist dispensationalist who later adopted Calvinistic soteriology and modified his dispensationalism a bit.  He still holds membership in the Independent Fundamental Churches of America (IFCA) even though his soteriology seems to be at odds what that group’s position.

      ???  My own experience with the IFCA has been that they are solidly Calvinist, as is MacArthur.  Where is he at odds with the IFCA on salvation?

19 posted on 04/27/2007 9:13:55 AM PDT by Celtman (It's never right to do wrong to do right.)
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To: LiteKeeper

I wasn’t aware of MacArthur being adispensationalist. I have never read anything that shows he supports it, have you? Since he associates with many pastors who are, perhaps he just has not tackled it.


20 posted on 04/27/2007 9:22:24 AM PDT by 1000 silverlings ("The Bible is the rock on which our Republic rests." Andrew Jackson, President of U.S.)
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To: Celtman
My understanding from the IFCA website and other contacts is they do not endorse the Calvinist concept of definite atonement.

"We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ died on the cross for all mankind as a representative, vicarious, substitutionary sacrifice, " (Articles (3)b) (It appears that an earlier version of their articles may have supported definite atonement with the phrase "We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ accomplished our redemption through His death on the cross ...".) The current version appears to support universal atonement.

At best they are four-pointers. They only one they seem definite on (pardon the pun) is total depravity.

MacArthur is five, no?

21 posted on 04/27/2007 9:42:23 AM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: Celtman
??? My own experience with the IFCA has been that they are solidly Calvinist, as is MacArthur.

Is there anything in their Articles of Faith that would prevent an Arminian from being a member in good conscience?

22 posted on 04/27/2007 9:45:48 AM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: 1000 silverlings
I have heard him refer to himself as a "leaky dispensationalist"

Check this "dispensationalism"

23 posted on 04/27/2007 9:48:40 AM PDT by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: LiteKeeper; topcat54; Dr. Eckleburg; Quix
Thanks LK. I admire JA very much and consider him the real deal. He studies constantly and sometimes he comes into conflict with others, but he supports his positions biblically. I never thought I would disagree with him, but I think there is but one Israel, spiritual Israel, One God, one church. When the Shema says that God is One, it means that God and Israel are One. There is no distinction. Christ is our God, but that's the rub.
24 posted on 04/27/2007 9:57:57 AM PDT by 1000 silverlings ("The Bible is the rock on which our Republic rests." Andrew Jackson, President of U.S.)
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To: 1000 silverlings

That is definitely not John’s position. And the linked article points that out very clearly. In fact, that is the crux of his position: there is a future for Israel...as part of the everlasting covenant.


25 posted on 04/27/2007 10:34:53 AM PDT by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: 1000 silverlings; topcat54; Lee N. Field; Alex Murphy
Amen.

Sadly, MacArthur is a dispensationalist, even according to his own words here...

CAN YOU EXPLAIN DISPENSATIONALSIM?

"Dispensationalism, by the way, is simply a title for theology that recognizes a literal nation Israel to be restored in the future. And recognizes a literal kingdom, and a literal tribulation, and a literal return, and a literal rapture, and that is dispensational. The other perspective is what's called non-dispensational or covenant theology, which has no place for Israel, no kingdom in the future, and spiritualizes everything rather than making it literal..."

When dispensationalism infiltrates Arminian churches, it's no surprise. But when it finds its decidedly political way into ostensibly reformed churches, people react. Here's Gary DeMar's take...

DEFENDING THE INDEFENSIBLE

26 posted on 04/27/2007 10:50:23 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Alex Murphy

no, the Rapture-era culture will not (cannot?) be redeemed by anything - including a wholesale repentance and conversion of the population - other than by the physical return of Christ. If you extrapolate backwards from this position, you discover that living one’s life for Christ in any era doesn’t add up to jack squat statistically or sociologically, whereas living one’s life for Satan has a statistically measurable, progressively successful effect on society in every era.

= = =

Hmmmmm, Bro, . . . uhhhh . . . not quite . . .

Christ said, AS IN THE DAYS OF NOAH . . . which, BTW, included rampant fallen nephiliam copulating with human women . . . evidently we have both directions today with both sexes . . . anyway . . . GOD HIMSELF determined that, except for Noah and sons and wives, it was a lost cause fit only for destruction. Evidently Christ thought/knew it would be more or less equally that bad.

And, I wholesale disagree that living for Christ doesn’t do squat sociologically etc. Statistics have shown since, I think, the founding of our country and certainly the last 100 years . . . that when church attendance goes up, alcoholism, theft, murders etc. go don in a geographic area.

Also, I think we will see much more of what happened in Sri Lanka with the big Tsunami as a native Sri Lankan was relating in my dad’s church this last Sunday. Just prior to the Tsunami—the plan was scheduled to take effect either that day or the next few days—that all the Christians would be murdered. The Tsumi wiped out the would be genocidal murderers.

I believe we will be seeing much more of that.

When congregations in an area are led of Holy Spirit and work together at least in prayer, worship and evangelism as well as caring for the poor—then I believe God will bless that area and give them extra protection from the descending evil forces of the looming global government.

Otherwise, they will be exterminated or co-opted into the globalists’ agenda and structure.


27 posted on 04/27/2007 10:56:39 AM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD!)
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To: Alex Murphy

How effective do you think the Dispensationalist’s sales pitch is re winning men and women for Christ, once the prospective convert discovers this a priori pessimism towards the efficacy of Christ’s blood?

= = =

The Pentecostal/Charismatic dispensationalists I know have the utmost respect for and belief in the maximum efficacy of THE BLOOD OF CHRIST. We sing NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD with great gusto.


28 posted on 04/27/2007 11:00:04 AM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD!)
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To: LiteKeeper; 1000 silverlings; Lee N. Field; Alex Murphy; Dr. Eckleburg
there is a future for Israel...as part of the everlasting covenant.

Let's just be clear here. Most non-dispensationalists believe there is a "future for Israel".

“I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not!” (Rom. 11:1)

“And so all Israel will be saved,” (Rom. 11:26)

The only difference, and it is a big one, is how that future for Israel will work itself out. The dispensationalist invents a radical distinction between the people of God in the Old Testament and the people of God in the New Testament as their solution. It is the hallmark of their theology. Some even went so far with this extreme view to suggest Israel under the law could actually be saved by the keeping of the law.

The non-dispensationalist does not see the biblical need for this radical distinction, in fact, they see the Bible as teaching the basic unity among God’s people in all ages. And so Peter could assign all the titles of Israel to the Church because one was the continuation and expansion of the other.

For the non-dispensationalist the future for Israel is today. The Church is the God-honoring climax to the Abrahamic promises given to the Seed, Jesus Christ. Jesus proved His Messiahship by tearing down the middle wall of partition that separated Jews and gentiles for so long. In Christ there is true racial healing for the nations.

It is too bad that folks like MacArthur see a day when racial distinctions (resulting in a world-side holocaust, btw) are again important in order to prove “there is a future for Israel”.

29 posted on 04/27/2007 11:18:47 AM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: LiteKeeper; Dr. Eckleburg; Quix; P-Marlowe

I am the densest person around, for for the life of me I can’t see how the secular Israel that exists today with its policies has fulfilled anything positive. I can’t believe it is of God, but of man. The Messiah was spiritual. They thought he was literal. The land is spiritual. Same mistake.


30 posted on 04/27/2007 11:45:05 AM PDT by 1000 silverlings ("The Bible is the rock on which our Republic rests." Andrew Jackson, President of U.S.)
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To: topcat54

Yes, totally agree


31 posted on 04/27/2007 11:46:27 AM PDT by 1000 silverlings ("The Bible is the rock on which our Republic rests." Andrew Jackson, President of U.S.)
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To: 1000 silverlings

In significant respects, it has NOTHING to do with the Israelies.

It has to do with God’s PROMISE to HIS BUDDY, HIS FRIEND, ABRAHAM.

AND

It has to do with setting the world and all creation up for God to DISPLAY HIS GLORY REDEEMING HIS CHOSEN CHARACTERS very dramatically amidst the most dramatic of all times—the END TIMES.

Israelies were always yoyo’s in terms of following God. Thankfully, He declares that He is going to write His law on the hearts of all believers including the Children of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

There is a subtle to not so subtle proof in The Sermon on The Mount that God has serious plans yet to be fulfilled for the blood Israelies.

This, in addition to many others . . . amongst them,

the 12 Patriarchs on their thrones in Heaven. That’s far more than ‘merely’ spiritual. They at least speak of tangible authority.

I don’t know specifically WHY God chose a kind of two track relationship with Him. It is clear that Israelies will have to accept Christ. It’s not clear the particular timing of their wholesale Conversion—though it has to occur in the END TIMES.

There is a lot of annecdotal puzzle pieces from here and there that when Christians join together with Jewish folks in doing Biblical good deeds—such as with the poor; or with Messianic Jews such as worship and praise . . . very powerful things can happen.


32 posted on 04/27/2007 12:05:49 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD!)
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To: Quix

They’d all be better off in America. It’s the last Christian stronghold.


33 posted on 04/27/2007 12:17:07 PM PDT by 1000 silverlings ("The Bible is the rock on which our Republic rests." Andrew Jackson, President of U.S.)
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To: 1000 silverlings

I don’t think so.

I used to think so.

Now, I know that being where God has you is the safest place.

And, I think that the puppet masters have decided to trash the USA as a way to make it easier to set up the global government.

I think that China and some other places may well end up being the last Christian strongholds in the END TIMES. What a paradox that would be!

What END TIMES prophecies yet to occur—WHEN they do occur, might convine you that your eschatology needed some adjustment? Sorry, I don’t have a firm image of a summary of yours. Just don’t store posts that way.


34 posted on 04/27/2007 12:26:28 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD!)
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To: Quix
China? Never happen.

When Israel lives once again with God as their ruler, then they will be "back in the land", no matter in what physical place they find themselves. There are many of them today, all over the earth trying to do this. These are those who have been blinded until the gospel has been preached to the utmost ends of the earth. That is a prophecy coming true. Jesus appearing in the clouds is what I look for and hope for.

35 posted on 04/27/2007 1:15:03 PM PDT by 1000 silverlings ("The Bible is the rock on which our Republic rests." Andrew Jackson, President of U.S.)
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To: 1000 silverlings

Some credible estimates put more Born Again believers in China than currently in the USA.


36 posted on 04/27/2007 1:48:34 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD!)
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To: 1000 silverlings; Dr. Eckleburg; Quix; xzins; blue-duncan
I am the densest person around, for for the life of me I can’t see how the secular Israel that exists today with its policies has fulfilled anything positive.

Perhaps then you can show us somewhere where the "religious" Israel in the Old Testament ever fulfilled anything "positive". The history of "religious" Israel is a history of a people who constantly turned their backs on God and worshiped idols and violated the commandments and covenants of God. Yet they were still God's "chosen people", weren't they?

I can’t believe it is of God, but of man.

Israel has always played the harlot. Yet, Israel was in the hand of God. Still is.

The Messiah was spiritual. They thought he was literal.

Sorry, but the promised Messiah was and is a literal Messiah.

The land is spiritual. Same mistake.

The land is literal. Christ will come down literally and plant his foot on the Mount of Olives. To say that the land is spiritual is to gnosticize the whole bible. If the land is spiritual and not literal, then Christ was spiritual and not literal and the resurrection was spiritual and not literal.

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. (2 Peter 1:16 KJV)

Literal.

37 posted on 04/27/2007 4:55:15 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: Quix
Some credible estimates put more Born Again believers in China than currently in the USA.

Excellent news. That's a trend, and that's postmillennialism! 8~)

38 posted on 04/27/2007 6:46:39 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: P-Marlowe; 1000 silverlings; Lee N. Field; topcat54
Sorry, but the promised Messiah was and is a literal Messiah.

But He is not leading us in a physical battle, but a spiritual battle. And He is spiritually discerned. The Jews got it wrong, and they continue in their error, looking for a warrior and more bloody sacrifice when the Lamb has already been accepted by God.

We, unlike Thomas and the Jews and the Greeks, do not seek a sign or earthly wisdom or high body counts or fortified national boundaries. We believe by God-given faith.

"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ." -- 1 Corinthians 2:12-16


39 posted on 04/27/2007 6:58:29 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: P-Marlowe; 1000 silverlings; Dr. Eckleburg; Quix; xzins

“The land is spiritual. Same mistake.”

Amos 9:11-15, “In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old: That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this. Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt. And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.”

This was quoted by James in Acts 15:14-17 as something to be fulfilled in the future, “Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.”


40 posted on 04/27/2007 7:06:58 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: P-Marlowe

The land is literal. Christ will come down literally and plant his foot on the Mount of Olives. To say that the land is spiritual is to gnosticize the whole bible. If the land is spiritual and not literal, then Christ was spiritual and not literal and the resurrection was spiritual and not literal.

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. (2 Peter 1:16 KJV)

Literal.

= = =

INDEED! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!


41 posted on 04/27/2007 7:35:52 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD!)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

It’s a trend in China, South America and Africa and Eastern Europe.

I do not believe it’s postmillenial, at all.


42 posted on 04/27/2007 7:36:54 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD!)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

STAY TUNED.

God is the best General there is.


43 posted on 04/27/2007 7:37:31 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD!)
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To: blue-duncan

Yup.

Only fractionally fulfilled and that since 1948.


44 posted on 04/27/2007 7:38:26 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD!)
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To: P-Marlowe; Dr. Eckleburg; topcat54; Quix
God destroyed the disobedient and the unbelievers, saving only a remnant, and a remnant will be saved in the future, per the book of Revelation. They were not all chosen. From the beginning, Judaism has been a belief, not a race. Abraham believed God. Only a believing remnant conquered the land in the first place and were allowed to enter. The rest of the people died.

The believing and obedient remnant was brought back to Israel from Babylon, and they built the second temple. A believing remnant were baptized by John, preparing the way for the Messiah. A believing remnant believed in Christ and thus the church was born. All good and positive things. Doubtless there is a remnant to be saved out of secular Israel, but the nation is just a poor copy of the original. In fact, as your post points out, they probably should be very very worried.

45 posted on 04/27/2007 7:53:47 PM PDT by 1000 silverlings ("The Bible is the rock on which our Republic rests." Andrew Jackson, President of U.S.)
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To: 1000 silverlings; Quix; xzins; blue-duncan
God destroyed the disobedient and the unbelievers, saving only a remnant, and a remnant will be saved in the future, per the book of Revelation. They were not all chosen. From the beginning, Judaism has been a belief, not a race.

Even the disobedient God called "My People".

46 posted on 04/27/2007 8:57:31 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe

YUP!


47 posted on 04/27/2007 8:59:51 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD!)
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To: Alex Murphy
"How effective do you think the Dispensationalist's sales pitch is re winning men and women for Christ, once the prospective convert discovers this a priori pessimism towards the efficacy of Christ's blood?"

What an absurd, baiting comment.

In the last century, have any come to Christ from the effort of non-dispensationalists? I think not.

48 posted on 04/27/2007 9:05:20 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Turning the general election into a second Democrat primary is not a winning strategy.)
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To: editor-surveyor
In the last century, have any come to Christ from the effort of non-dispensationalists?

Conversely, would you say civilization has improved or degraded in the last century?

49 posted on 04/27/2007 9:43:57 PM PDT by Alex Murphy
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To: blue-duncan; 1000 silverlings; P-Marlowe; Dr. Eckleburg; topcat54; Alex Murphy; editor-surveyor
Amos 9:11-15, “In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old: That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this. Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt. And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.”

This was quoted by James in Acts 15:14-17 as something to be fulfilled in the future, “Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.”

It's amazing to me how Sola Scripturists can read these words from the Apostles at the Council of Jerusalem and allegorize [spiritualize] them away. The words speak for themselves and need no deep theological interpretation. The Church was built upon the foundation of apostles and prophets and here are the words of the apostles and prophets together regarding the actual and physical restoration of the kingdom to Israel --- but covenant theologians just don't believe it. They refuse to believe that He is coming in the flesh to this actual earth to perform that which He promised through His prophets and apostles.

50 posted on 04/28/2007 5:59:59 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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