I believe you will find answers to some (if not all) of your questions at Marcus Grodi's excellent web site:
I am also pinging the Catholic List for their feedback. God bless you both!
Posted on 05/01/2007 9:13:13 AM PDT by Rocky Mountain Wild Turkey
Hello Brothers & Sisters --
We want to join a Catholic Church here in Michigan. I was raised Catholic, my wife was raised Lutheran - MS.
We were not married at a Catholic or Lutheran church.
She (as do I) have some questions. We would appreciate any answers or comments:
-- Why is the RCIA program so long (September to Easter Vigil) for someone who is not a 'non-Christian' and with so much Christian schooling already (Lutheran MS School - K-8)?
-- Why is she considered a 'convert'? She is still Christian, willing to accept a fuller understanding way of the church and way of practicing the Christian faith.
-- The Catholic Church does say we are married, but we have to apply for a "dispensation" and have another marriage ceremony. If the RCC accepts her baptism, why not our marriage (two baptized Christians who exchanged rings "In the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit")? This makes her feel like our wedding in 1998 "didn't happen."
-- She didn't really know this one: Why do Lutherans only have 3 sacraments (baptism, holy communion and reconciliation), as opposed to 7 in the RCC?
Thank you for any and all your thoughts.
This is harder for me than I imagined.
Peace.
I believe you will find answers to some (if not all) of your questions at Marcus Grodi's excellent web site:
I am also pinging the Catholic List for their feedback. God bless you both!
First, no Catholic bashing at all!!! I am just asking questions. Sorry if it seems like I was do any “bashing.”
Second, thank you all for your comments. Keep them coming.
Lastly, PLEASE do not start ‘virtual’ fights on this thread. If someone wants to give ME initial advice not to join the Catholic/Lutheran church at all, that’s fine.
However, please keep the focus on the questions I asked to help my wife and I. By all means, send a ‘Private Reply’ to anyone else if you feel you need to.
Dona nobis pacem ... yes?
I’m not bashing the people but I do have an opinion on the system of extensive regulations that seems to easily distract poeple from the path to salvation.
A lot of the things you mentioned depend on the parish and the priest who you are talking to. RCIA varies in length; some well-instructed people are not required to do the whole thing, but if it is done in a class, everybody moves at the same pace and it may be slow, depending on the other members. However, you will get to make friends there, and that can help.
As for your marriage, a marriage outside the Church is valid, but perhaps they just want you to have it blessed. I can’t imagine there’d be any reason you’d need a dispensation (unless you’re going for the priesthood!), although if there are serious irregularities (earlier marriages not annulled, etc) you might need an annulment. Ask the pastor to explain this to you better.
I hope you are in a good parish where they use good teaching materials for their RCIA program. You have a lot of questions, and all of these will be answered during the program, if it’s a good one.
Best wishes!
Then find out more about the Church he founded and the instructions he gave on how we are to live. For if you attack his Church you attack Him.
Actually I just read that verse this morning! I kid you not. Sometimes tough love is the best love. I have many close friends who are Catholic, some believe in the resurrection and others are on shaky ground with their beliefs.
>>Lastly, PLEASE do not start ‘virtual’ fights on this thread. If someone wants to give ME initial advice not to join the Catholic/Lutheran church at all, that’s fine.<<
Here, Here!
>>If I speak in the tongues of men and angels, but have not love, I have become a sounding brass or a tinkling symbol. And if I have prophecy and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. —1 Corinthians 13<<
Seems to me that the only people who do not have Love on this thread are the ones who seem to be saying that Catholics don’t.
“Then find out more about the Church he founded”
I have and it’s probably a different interpretation as your interpretation. There are many people who attend Catholic Church who are part of the Church he founded. I don’t deny that.
The term 'convert' as used in this context does not mean "from paganism to Christianity", but from non-Catholic to Catholic. If you know how the term is being used, then you won't find the term insulting or off-putting when used in this way.
In Catholicism, marriage is a sacrament. One of the conditions for the sacramental validity of marriage is that it not be "impeded by any natural or ecclesiastical law" (CCC #1625). In the case of mixed marriages (where one party is Catholic, and the other is a baptized non-Catholic), "a mixed marriage needs for liceity the express permission of ecclesiastical authority" (CCC #1635) Therefore, for the *sacramental* validity of your marriage (from the time of your wedding to the time of your wife's conversion to Catholicism), you will need the "dispension" that you mention.
Why do Lutherans only have three sacraments? Because Luther got rid of the ones he couldn't find sufficiently spelled out as sacraments in Scripture. He was trying to use 'sola scriptura' as a guide, but 'sola scriptura' itself is nowhere in Scripture.
-A8
I was ELCA lutheran but joined hte Catholic church in 2006, It is worth it.
Your marriage was/is and always has been a true marriage but when your marriage is blessed it becomes sacramental, something very Holy. Now, I know, you'll both say that in was already a Holy union but now the Church recognizes it as Holy and so will you. We didn't have to do that because neither of us were Catholic and we joined together.
Understanding the Eucharist as much as humanly possible, is one goal of Catechizing. It is a very profound thing and when you have come from another Christian faith which has taught it as a remembrance, you have to adjust your thinking.
Learning about and understanding confession/reconciliation is also a very important thing along with all that Catholicism encompasses.
A Church with 2000 yrs of history has much wisdom to impart, from Scripture study to the early church fathers. You won't be unhappy that you attended, believe me.
I think some people are going to be really surprised on Judgement Day who made it and who didn’t. It might well be something like this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RMzA82H-Qo
The Catholic initiation typically involves several people and consists of stages, first inquiry and then catechumenate. We also like to welcome the newly coming to communion at Easter. It is possible that your wife will not need as much attention as someone less familiar with the Church, but the schedule is one for all. Now, if there is an emergency in this, then by all means ask that the process be accelerated for you.
Nearly always, the conversion of the heart precedes the formal initiation, and the catechumen has a great hunger for the Eucharist. My advice is, value that hunger and do not seek to cut it short. This is her personal Advent and a necessary part of her journey. Incidentally, the observance of seasons is an important part of the authentic Catholicity. Consider that the Jewish nation hungered for thousands of years for her Savior. The schedule belongs to God.
“Convert” is the simplest term, and you will hear it often. Naturally, it covers a broad spectrum of personal circumstance; in the case of your wife, she is definitely considered a Christian by virtue of her baptism.
The sacraments of the Church are dealt with great precision by the Canon Law. It would be a good idea to inquire about the distinctions between baptism and marriage, and between marriage outside of the Church and Catholic marriage. It is a broad subject, at times technical. Likewise, it is necessary for your wife to learn about the other sacraments of the Church, their meaning, history, and their canonical form. One can write a dissertation about any one of them. I, and others, will be happy to deal with specific questions to the extent that we can (I have no special qualifications though), but it is precisely because it is not a simple one-lesson doctrine that the inquiry process is there for your wife.
Unless your last question is about the Lutherans rather than about the Catholics. The short answer is, — Because Luther decided to drop 4 sacraments when he split off his community of faith, — but I am sure a Lutheran might have a more complete answer.
Please extend to your wife my warmest wishes. She will not be traveling alone.
It could be more disconcerting, in my diocese the bishop has RCIA going for a full calendar year.
As far as ‘convert’, that’s not really the language anyone in the process should be using. If they are, keep your guard up! There’s more to RCIA than instruction, intruction might be the least important aspect of the process for a Christian. Here’s something from yet another diocese’s website:
Those adults who were baptized as infants either as Roman Catholics or as members of another Christian community but did not receive further catechetical formation, nor, consequently, the Sacraments of Confirmation and Eucharist are also included in the RCIA process. They are referred to as Candidates - a candidate for the Roman Catholic Sacrament of Confirmation and a candidate preparing to receive Holy Communion in the Catholic Church and thus become a full member of the Catholic Church.
As in the case of catechumens, the preparation of candidates requires an extended time. Most often, a program of training, catechesis suited to the Candidate’s needs, contact with the community of the faithful, and participation in certain liturgical rites are needed in order to strengthen them in the Christian life.(RCIA 401) For the most part the plan of catechesis corresponds to the one laid down for catechumens. The differences in the process are tailored by the candidate in conjunction with the RCIA Director and the Church-provided Sponsor.
Since candidates are already baptized, the liturgical rites that mark the steps of the formation process are different from those of catechumens. There is the Rites of Welcoming The Candidates, the Rite of Calling The Candidate To Continuing Conversion and a Penitential Rite. Reception Of Baptized Christians Into The Full Communion Of The Catholic Church is the liturgical rite by which a person born and baptized in another Christian Community is received into the full communion of the Catholic Church.
Oh yeah, as far as having to wait, it is a wonderful wait and when you are officially Catholic at the Easter Vigil you will know that you have finally found home.
No other Church but the Catholic and Orthodox can give you His Body and Blood in His True Presence!
Listen to the hearts of the Saints in their writings on the Eucharist.
“Recognize in this bread what hung on the cross, and in this chalice what flowed from His side... whatever was in many and varied ways announced beforehand in the sacrifices of the Old Testament pertains to this one sacrifice which is revealed in the New Testament.”
- from the writings of St. Augustine, Sermon 3, 2; circa A.D. 410 {original translation}
“O Lord, we cannot go to the pool of Siloe to which you sent the blind man. But we have the chalice of Your Precious Blood, filled with life and light. The purer we are, the more we receive.”
- St. Ephraem
“When you have received Him, stir up your heart to do Him homage; speak to Him about your spiritual life, gazing upon Him in your soul where He is present for your happiness; welcome Him as warmly as possible, and behave outwardly in such a way that your actions may give proof to all of His Presence.”
- St. Francis de Sales
“What wonderful majesty! What stupendous condescension! O sublime humility! That the Lord of the whole universe, God and the Son of God, should humble Himself like this under the form of a little bread, for our salvation”
“...In this world I cannot see the Most High Son of God with my own eyes, except for His Most Holy Body and Blood.”
- St. Francis of Assisi
I hunger for the bread of God, the flesh of Jesus Christ ...; I long to drink of his blood, the gift of unending love.
- St. Ignatius of Antioch
“How many of you say: I should like to see His face, His garments, His shoes. You do see Him, you touch Him, you eat Him. He gives Himself to you, not only that you may see Him, but also to be your food and nourishment.”
- St. John Chrysostom
“THOUGHT FROM FATHER FABER - St. Joseph worshiped Jesus as no saint before had done. From his deep, calm soul he poured out a very ocean of love - tenderest love, humblest love, love shrinking from being like the Father’s love, yet also daring to be like it as Mary’s had been like the conjoined loves of Father and of Spirit, as she was Mother and Spouse conjoined. No angel might love Jesus as Joseph loved Him, as Joseph was bound to love Him. No temporal love but Mary’s could be more like an eternal love than the love of Joseph for the Child, because of its likeness to the love of the everlasting Father. Aside from the Blessed Virgin, Saint Joseph was the first and most perfect adorer of Our Lord.”
- St. Peter Julian Eymard
“The celebration of the Holy Mass
is as valuable as the death of Jesus on the Cross.”
~ St. Thomas Aquinas
“Man should tremble, the world should vibrate,
all Heaven should be deeply moved
when the Son of God appears on the alter in the hands of the priest.”
~ St. Francis of Assisi
“It would be easier for the earth
to carry on without the sun
than without the Holy Mass.”
~ Blessed Padre Pio
This is what You,re gaining by becoming a Catholic.
Just Keep focused on the Eucharist and go to Him in Adoration as often as you can.
I wish you a Blessed Day!
Because there is a lot to learn and understand so that your wife (and you) can fully understand what it is you are entering. Catholic and Lutheran beliefs on a wide variety of topics vary greatly, that's kind of why they had a bit of a parting of the ways 500 years ago. Frankly, Lutheran school doesn't prepare you to be a Catholic any more than studying automotive mechanics prepares you to be an aircraft mechanic.
-- Why is she considered a 'convert'? She is still Christian, willing to accept a fuller understanding way of the church and way of practicing the Christian faith.
She is still "converting" from a Protestant faith to the Catholic faith. If it makes her feel better, consider that non-Christians (the unbaptised) are called "catechumens" during RCIA, while those who have been validly baptised are called "candidates." So a distinction is recognized.
-- The Catholic Church does say we are married, but we have to apply for a "dispensation" and have another marriage ceremony. If the RCC accepts her baptism, why not our marriage (two baptized Christians who exchanged rings "In the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit")? This makes her feel like our wedding in 1998 "didn't happen."
As a Catholic you had the responsibility to either get married in the Church or to obtain permission from the bishop to get married outside of the Church.
It seems you did neither.
Let me put it this way: If you wanted your marriage anulled, it would be quite easy because you failed to get married with the proper "form." A Catholic, as I said already, is obliged to follow Church rules about such things.
That said, even if you were both Protestant, you would still need to have your marriage regularized by the Church.
-- She didn't really know this one: Why do Lutherans only have 3 sacraments (baptism, holy communion and reconciliation), as opposed to 7 in the RCC?
You'll have to ask Luther. :-)
Some Lutherans only recognize 2 sacraments, baptism & holy communion. The difference has to do with a very different understanding about church/Church authority. Lutherans believe that all of God's instructions to us are to be found in Scripture, while Catholics believe the only way to reach a full understanding goes through the church.
As to your marriage... I have to wonder at your failure to follow your Church's teachings when it was made. Sacraments are through the Church or they are not. If your wife is going to convert, I think it would be helpful for you to get a refresher on your church's teachings. If you went through catechism with her, you could help each other & grow together.
I was raised Lutheran (I didn't convert) & my ex-husband was raised Roman Catholic. Before we were married in a Roman Catholic church my ex-husband had to vow he would raise our (future) children in his faith & I had to vow not to interfere with him doing so. I'm sure both of you will be expected to do something similar before your marriage is blessed.
In hindsight, one of us should have converted. A shared faith could have been something we shared, as opposed to something that occasionally raised moments of contention.
This is not a closed caucus thread, therefore challenges are allowed.
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