Posted on 05/01/2007 9:13:13 AM PDT by Rocky Mountain Wild Turkey
Hello Brothers & Sisters --
We want to join a Catholic Church here in Michigan. I was raised Catholic, my wife was raised Lutheran - MS.
We were not married at a Catholic or Lutheran church.
She (as do I) have some questions. We would appreciate any answers or comments:
-- Why is the RCIA program so long (September to Easter Vigil) for someone who is not a 'non-Christian' and with so much Christian schooling already (Lutheran MS School - K-8)?
-- Why is she considered a 'convert'? She is still Christian, willing to accept a fuller understanding way of the church and way of practicing the Christian faith.
-- The Catholic Church does say we are married, but we have to apply for a "dispensation" and have another marriage ceremony. If the RCC accepts her baptism, why not our marriage (two baptized Christians who exchanged rings "In the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit")? This makes her feel like our wedding in 1998 "didn't happen."
-- She didn't really know this one: Why do Lutherans only have 3 sacraments (baptism, holy communion and reconciliation), as opposed to 7 in the RCC?
Thank you for any and all your thoughts.
This is harder for me than I imagined.
Peace.
Even if the OP asked that challenges not be allowed?
Not everyone knows about the “Catholic Caucus” label.
Later, this evening.
A "convert" is an informal term for someone entering the church as an adulte. She's technically a "candidate for full communion," not a "catechumen". Catechumens are unbaptized persons; "candidates" are baptized Christians.
Why is the RCIA program so long (September to Easter Vigil) for someone who is not a 'non-Christian' and with so much Christian schooling already (Lutheran MS School - K-8)?
Really, truly, candidates aren't supposed to be required to take RCIA. RCIA is for catechumens. See if your parish, or another parish nearby, can give you an abbreviated version. The argument can be made that, as soon as your wife can profess the Catholic faith, she has a right to the sacraments.
The Catholic Church does say we are married, but we have to apply for a "dispensation" and have another marriage ceremony. If the RCC accepts her baptism, why not our marriage (two baptized Christians who exchanged rings "In the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit")? This makes her feel like our wedding in 1998 "didn't happen."
If I understand your post correctly, the problem is that you were a Catholic and married outside the church. Catholics are required to obey the Catholic "form" of marriage and have their marriages witnessed by a priest or deacon. Those requirements can be dispensed from, but if you didn't have the dispensations, they're still in force.
At least, that's my best guess as to what is happening.
She didn't really know this one: Why do Lutherans only have 3 sacraments (baptism, holy communion and reconciliation), as opposed to 7 in the RCC?
Short answer: because Dr. Luther didn't like the other 4.
“This is harder for me than I imagined.”
I am not trying to incur the wrath of honest Christ believing Catholics but your statement that I highlighted is the same statement I had on many occasions. It really isn’t hard, belief in Jesus Christ trumps all. Don’t be afraid to pick up the Bible and read it.
Good luck!
Hi RMWT, welcome back to church. I haven’t read the replies and I’m sure you’ve got great explanations to your questions already. I mean no offense when I say that if neither you nor your wife knows why Luther did away with 4 of the sacraments, you both could use some more catechetical training. It’s not a reflection on your wife’s Lutheran grade school that she doesn’t know the answer. It really is a concept that Catholic kids would be introduced to in high school, perhaps in a Western Civ class, if not a religion class.
Belief in Jesus Christ implies and requires obedience to his words, and to those whom he's placed in authority over his people. When you read your Bible, don't forget the verses that say "Who hears you, hears me" and "Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' but don't follow my commandments?"
I agree 100%.
-- Why is the RCIA program so long (September to Easter Vigil) for someone who is not a 'non-Christian' and with so much Christian schooling already (Lutheran MS School - K-8)?
Entering the Catholic Church is not a matter taken lightly. The Church does not want someone to enter into the faith unless they are ready and willing to accept all her teachings - some which are well-known, others which are less publicized, but equally important. The timespan is designed to give the candidate ample opportunity to reflect on your decision and determine if she is truly ready to enter into communion with the Church. I have been involved in RCIA at my parish for several years, and I can tell you it goes FAST!! Some are more ready than others, but for the sake of those who are doing it just because they want to married in a Catholic Church or one spouse is demanding it of the other, the Church wants there to be full disclosure of what they are entering into. At any rate, depending on the pastor of the parish you intend to join, you could theoretically receive a dispensation from the course, but entry would still be at the Easter vigil.
-- Why is she considered a 'convert'? She is still Christian, willing to accept a fuller understanding way of the church and way of practicing the Christian faith.
Although there is much we have in common with the Lutheran confession, there are some extremely large chasms with regard to transubstantiation, purgatory, and devotion to Mary and the saints. These are not small side-dishes to the main entree of our faith in Christ. They are extremely important matters of liturgy, devotion, and the sacramental life which, I believe, demonstrate a sizable difference between Protestantism and Catholicism. In that respect, the term "convert" is appropriate, even though it is the same Trinity whom we worship.
-- The Catholic Church does say we are married, but we have to apply for a "dispensation" and have another marriage ceremony. If the RCC accepts her baptism, why not our marriage (two baptized Christians who exchanged rings "In the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit")? This makes her feel like our wedding in 1998 "didn't happen."
Because you were raised Catholic, you are required to have your marriage blessed by the Church. You were still a member of the Catholic Church body even when you were no longer practicing. Since, technically, the man and woman are performing as ministers to each other during the wedding, as a Catholic, you cannot simply minister your own wedding outside the Church without a dispensation. If a dispensation was not given, you are still required to have the Church bless your union.
-- She didn't really know this one: Why do Lutherans only have 3 sacraments (baptism, holy communion and reconciliation), as opposed to 7 in the RCC?
Not sure the exact reasons why outside of the lack of Apostolic succession where a bishop is required.
NO WORRIES! There are obviously a few obstacles for you to navigate, but don't let these issues discourage you. Once you get past some of the red tape, you will be eternally grateful you saw it through.
Thanks for playing. Why don’t you take it for a spin instead of judging it from afar?
Check out their archive of radio programs. Search for yourself, or try these programs (when you get to the calendar, click on the program you're interested in):
The Sacraments (January 30)Best wishes, and congratulations on your wife's entry into the Church!
The Sacraments of Healing (January 20)
How to Become Catholic (March 14)
Adult Formation (March 20)
The Sacraments Revealed in the Old Testament (July 14)
The Sacramentality of Marriage (July 31)
A New Standard for RCIA (November 3)
The Meaning of Marriage (March 12)
For most people, the 10 Commandments by itself is too extensive. Religious regulations are certainly nothing new under the sun.
Where I went to RCIA it was one year (9 months) if you were baptized but TWO years if you were not.
That doesn't surprise me. Even today we have to deal with heterodox priests. The faith itself is impenetrable. It's the people commissioned with feeding the flock who have been neglecting their duties for almost 40 years now. To our everlasting shame, many Catholics were not taught their faith, and so, drifted away. I was one who did drift away, but came back of my own volition and decided to re-educate myself in the faith.
Not quite. The short answer is for a Sacrament (as we Lutherans see it), there needs to be three things.
1. A clear case of it in the Bible.
2. The Sacrament is for the remission of sins.
3. There is a visible sign (the water of Baptism, the wine/blood and bread/body of Communion)of that grace.
Which is why Confirmation is considered a rite, but not a sacrament (though the terminology and theology is much like it is for the RCC Confirmation). The Office of the Keys and Confession is sometimes regarded as a Sacrament, but sometimes not as there isn't a visible sign (typically), same with ordination (although that is something that is often hinted at).
When my bride and I got married, we did so in her home church (a RCC church). The priest who did our pre Cana stuff and my pastor at time both said that the marriage was valid either way, but the priest said it would be "irregular" if we got married in my Lutheran Church (the pastor was a close friend). Since it is the right of a woman to be married in her home church were I came from, we got married in her church.
“Religious regulations are certainly nothing new under the sun.”
Very true. The source of the regulations is what concerns me most.
— Why is the RCIA program so long (September to Easter Vigil) for someone who is not a ‘non-Christian’ and with so much Christian schooling already (Lutheran MS School - K-8)?
You should be able to enter into the Church without having to go through an RCIA program designed for catechists and the baptized who have not received any or only minimal instruction. Perhaps a private conference with the RCIA instructor and the parish priest would lead to a course of independent study which is more suited for you and your wife.
-Q.- Why is she considered a ‘convert’? She is still Christian, willing to accept a fuller understanding way of the church and way of practicing the Christian faith.
A. Actually she is not considered a convert. She is regarded as one who is entering into full communion with the Catholic Church. As a Lutheran she was a Christian who was not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church.
-Q- The Catholic Church does say we are married, but we have to apply for a “dispensation” and have another marriage ceremony. If the RCC accepts her baptism, why not our marriage (two baptized Christians who exchanged rings “In the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit”)? This makes her feel like our wedding in 1998 “didn’t happen.”
A. I have never heard of this practice. If neither one of you has ever been married before and you were married in a Christian church you are considered as having a valid sacramental marriage. This is because the couple acts as the ministers of the sacrament in Catholic marriage and the priest serves as a witness. If one of ou was to remain Protestant than the marriage would need to be blessed in the Church. But with both of you being Catholic I do not think this is required. You should be able to receive the sacraments without any sort of dispensation.
-Q- She didn’t really know this one: Why do Lutherans only have 3 sacraments (baptism, holy communion and reconciliation), as opposed to 7 in the RCC?
A. Because Luther believed that the remaining 4 were not directly instituted by Christ but were later developments of the Church.
It seems to roughly line up to where the 30 years war was fought. Which makes since, as even baptismal and birth records of that time are often impossible to find.
Absolutely! But Christ didn't have a body of 12 Apostles just for show. And you'd better believe they had rules to follow. The faith could not have spread without a central Church. The chaos that would have occured from the time of Christ's resurrection to the sacking of Jerusalem to the ultimate end of the Roman Empire would have seen Christianity squashed in its infancy or hopelessly splintered and without direction.
Ironically, the same would go for today. There is but one voice crying in the wilderness over the issues which affect all Christians - the Culture of Death - and that voice belongs to the Pope. Love him or hate him - believe him Christ's vicar or believe him the harlot - without the Church, the forces of evil would have overtaken the world. He is all that stands between a globe which has completely surrendering to Satan, and a tiny remnant of faithful Catholics and Protestants who will fight to the end.
1) The RCIA program is supposed to be shorter for those who have been raised in the various Christian denominations. It is supposed to be the full length for those who have not yet been baptized, and, hence, aren’t yet formally Christian. If the program is a good one, it wouldn’t hurt to undergo the whole thing just as a refresher, but it shouldn’t be mandated.
2) She is considered a convert because she is, in fact, convreting from Lutheranism to Catholicism. “Convert” is used here in a different sense than, say, converting from Buddhism to catholicism, but it is still considered to be a conversion to the “fullness of the Faith.”
3) The Catholic Church acknowledges that you are civilly married, but it doesn’t recognize the marriage as a Christian one for one or (possibly) two reasons. You stated that you were not married in either a Catholic or Lutheran church. If you were married in any venue other than a Christian church, your marriage is sacramentally invalid because you (the Catholic party) cannot under any circumstances marry in a civil ceremony. If the wedding took place in a Christian church other than Catholic or Lutheran, it *could* have been sacramentally valid *if* you (the Catholic party) obtained a dispensation from your bishop to have the wedding there. Otherwise, the marriage suffers from what is called “defect of form,” and is invalid. It’s a simple matter to have your marriage convalidated (”retroactively blessed”), and the problem vanishes.
4) Luther simply didn't recognize the sacramental nature of some of the Sacraments at all. In fact, I was under the impression that, as far as many Lutherans are concerned, there are only two Sacraments, not three.
I hope this helped. Please feel free to post to me privately if you need clarifications. I’ll be able to be more thorough after work.
Sure, but to those who eschew the 10 Commandments (for starters), Moses was nothing but a raving madman with a mob of angry Hebrews to lead through the desert. Face it, even you and I have to take the authority of Moses on faith.
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