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Lutheran Wife has questions before joining Catholic Church

Posted on 05/01/2007 9:13:13 AM PDT by Rocky Mountain Wild Turkey

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To: Rocky Mountain Wild Turkey

In that case as I believe has been stated by magesterium you would need a dispensation to have your marriage regarded as valid. It has nothing to do with your wife being non Catholic but with the fact that you a Catholic, were not married in the Church before a priest and at least two witnesses. Once you are validly married you will able to join in the full sacramental life of the Church.

The graces that will pour into your marriage and family from this will strengthen the bond you have with each other and with Christ. What a blessing for you both.

As for your wife being concerned that this means the marriage never happened I don’t think this is the Church’s view. It is a legal marriage just not a sacramental one.


101 posted on 05/01/2007 1:45:08 PM PDT by lastchance (Hug your babies.)
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To: Straight Vermonter

So what would be the thinking on an Episcopalian husband and wife married in the Catholic Church, she raised Roman Catholic, and both lookin to Rome in light of the Episcopalians having gone nuts. Any special dispensations, recognition of original marriage, extent of RCIA program? Clergy responses welcome in advance of any local initiative to pursue this idea?


102 posted on 05/01/2007 2:23:32 PM PDT by yetidog
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To: PAR35

PAR35 -

You may be right that my practice of the Catholic faith has been shaky. However, I am trying to correct that the best way I can.

And, yes, I do talk to my wife about my thoughts about the RCC and Lutheran church. Hopefully, it is not perceived as pressure. We have been members of a ELCA church in the past, but I feel there so much missing from my RC background. I don’t know what it is; I just feel it (.. not to sound too Jedi!)

Actually, it seems that I would never have to ‘convert’ to be a member of any Lutheran church. Is there a procedure in the Lutheran church, similar to the RCIA?


103 posted on 05/01/2007 2:26:23 PM PDT by Rocky Mountain Wild Turkey
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To: Charles Henrickson
Is the big thing about the Sacraments what *we* (priest, pre-Vatican II; people, post-Vatican II) are doing for God (i.e., Law)

It's not at all the Catholic understanding that the Sacraments are something "we" do for God. Not even remotely.

They're 101%, a gift from God to us.

104 posted on 05/01/2007 2:32:27 PM PDT by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: Rocky Mountain Wild Turkey

Congratulations.

>> Why is the RCIA program so long (September to Easter Vigil) for someone who is not a ‘non-Christian’ and with so much Christian schooling already (Lutheran MS School - K-8)? <<

Please don’t take this the wrong way: It takes a lot longer to rebuild a highway, then to build a new one. Many Protestants have very strongly ingrained, counter-scriptural, historically anti-Catholic notions of what they think they know of Christian doctrine. Lutherans, of course, are much closer to Catholics on many doctrinal issues than most other Protestants, but, of course, the program is intended to be fairly universal.

>> Why is she considered a ‘convert’? She is still Christian, willing to accept a fuller understanding way of the church and way of practicing the Christian faith. <<

I believe the term “convert” is used for anyone who must receive one or more of the sacraments of initiation (Baptism, First Communion, Confirmation). The Catholic Church does recognize the Baptism of Lutherans, but not the Communion or Confirmation.

>> The Catholic Church does say we are married, but we have to apply for a “dispensation” and have another marriage ceremony. If the RCC accepts her baptism, why not our marriage (two baptized Christians who exchanged rings “In the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit”)? This makes her feel like our wedding in 1998 “didn’t happen.” <<

The wedding did happen, but it was not witnessed by the Catholic Community. In Catholic doctrine, sex is the sacrament (!): two people marry each other in the intimacy of their own home; the wedding is just the declaration that this is occuring. That’s why unconsumated marriages can be annulled fairly easily; no sex, no marriage! (In cases where sex isn’t possible, the consummation can be merely spiritual.) I didn’t realize that you’d need a second marriage ceremony, but look at it as proclaiming your love to the Catholic community.

>> — She didn’t really know this one: Why do Lutherans only have 3 sacraments (baptism, holy communion and reconciliation), as opposed to 7 in the RCC? <<

The sacraments make all things holy. For all things that God ordains should happen, there is a sacrament that expresses that such an ordination is God’s will.

The “other” sacraments:

Confirmation. The bible recognizes two types of baptism: by water, and by a laying-on of hands. In fact, in certain instances in Acts, these happened seperately. A water baptism establishes a regeneration in Christ, but a hands baptism embued one with the Holy Spirit, and Christian authority. For pagan or Jewish converts, these were given simultaneously, but babies were given water baptisms so that they did not go to Hell when they died. Nonetheless, before anyone was given Christian authority, they needed to confirm their faith by public confession. Therefore, baptism by hands was given seperately, when one reached the age of reason.

Last Rites: Keep in mind, Catholics believe in purgatory, so, therefore, believe that a soul can suffer temporal effects of sin. Last rites, therefore, are a final cleansing of the soul before death to prevent undue suffering. Since such a cleansing is in general helpful, the Church has recently permitted Last Rites to be offered even when a prognosis is quite good, so that the administration of Last Rites would not be seen as pessimistic. Therefore, the rites are often simply called, “anointing of the sick,” even though this has led to some confusion with anointing which is occasionally done simply to ask God to heal the sick.

Holy Orders or Marriage. Lastly, each Catholic consecrates the service of his life to God, whether he is called to material procreation (marriage) or spiritual procreation (holy orders). Either way, the vocation is ordained by God, and, thus, a sacrament is made.

For something really wild to consider: The Christian seeks the triumph of the spirit over the dictates of the flesh. In a sense, through the sacraments, each bodily function is shown to represent a prefiguring of a spiritual function, and, thus, be accorded holiness as a means to sanctification. The sacraments of baptism, communion, confession, confirmation, last rites, marriage and holy orders correspond with the life functions of birth, injestion, excretion, respiration, death, sex and toil.


105 posted on 05/01/2007 3:10:46 PM PDT by dangus
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To: bigcat32
Sometimes tough love is the best love.

That ain't love you're spouting.

106 posted on 05/01/2007 3:15:25 PM PDT by Petronski (Fred.)
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To: Rocky Mountain Wild Turkey
If you feel as though you are shaky in your Faith, it may not be a bad idea to go to the RCIA classes with your wife. That would allow you to learn some of the things that you may have missed, and would probably help her to be more comfortable with going for such a long time. One of the professors at my college did that when his wife converted and he re-verted after something like 20 years.

As others have mentioned, the Coming Home Network is also a great resource. Don't worry about it being a difficult path; others have traversed it as well to find it was worthwhile.

107 posted on 05/01/2007 3:18:45 PM PDT by GCC Catholic
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To: bigcat32
I’m not fighting.

Of course you are, and you're being very rude about it.

108 posted on 05/01/2007 3:19:32 PM PDT by Petronski (Fred.)
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To: Rocky Mountain Wild Turkey
This is harder for me than I imagined.

And for me, so was physics and calculus. But, it's worthwhile and beautiful once you grasp it. The benefits are eternal.

109 posted on 05/01/2007 4:19:20 PM PDT by Barnacle (Hunter, Thompson, Gingrich, Tancredo, whoever. Just vote Conservative.)
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To: Rocky Mountain Wild Turkey
I know that your questions have probably all been answered for you by now but I will give it a try as a Luthern-baptised Catholic convert and a former RCIA instructor.

- Why is the RCIA program so long (September to Easter Vigil) for someone who is not a 'non-Christian' and with so much Christian schooling already (Lutheran MS School - K-8)?

I know that it seems long but try to enjoy the process. I would buy a copy of the Cathecism of the Catholic Church and the compendium (question and answer version), but I probably wouldn't bother with the new USCCB "American" version. My personal experience is that we former protestants often take longer than our non-Christian RCIA classmates since we have to do "unlearning" in addition to learning. A good instructor makes a big difference.

-- Why is she considered a 'convert'? She is still Christian, willing to accept a fuller understanding way of the church and way of practicing the Christian faith.

I remember the shock I had when I was first called a "convert". I felt like a pygmy in some tropical jungle! Please try to ignore any feelings of Catholic condescension. You may soon take great pride in the label.

-- The Catholic Church does say we are married, but we have to apply for a "dispensation" and have another marriage ceremony. If the RCC accepts her baptism, why not our marriage (two baptized Christians who exchanged rings "In the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit")? This makes her feel like our wedding in 1998 "didn't happen."

You are definitely already married, but probably just naturally and not sacramentally since the Lutheran Church doesn't view it in the same way as the Catholic Church. Think on the blessing of your marital union as making it permanent (divorce thereafter is off the table!).

-- She didn't really know this one: Why do Lutherans only have 3 sacraments (baptism, holy communion and reconciliation), as opposed to 7 in the RCC?

Sacraments are outward signs of inward grace, instituted by Christ himself. I had thought that MS, WELS, and ELS Lutherans only had two. Sadly much of the faith was lost during the separation.

I hope this is helpful and please feel to Freepmail me if you or your wife have more questions or start to get discouraged. Good luck and welcome to the Church Christ founded!

110 posted on 05/01/2007 4:20:34 PM PDT by Ronaldus Magnus
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To: adiaireton8

**As for the length of RCIA, my recommendation is to be humble, and admit the possibility that there is still much that you/she need to know.**

This could also apply to some here on this thread in my opinion.

Thanks for your great and wise comments.


111 posted on 05/01/2007 4:35:48 PM PDT by Salvation (" With God all things are possible. ")
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To: Hydroshock

**I was ELCA lutheran but joined hte Catholic church in 2006, It is worth it.**

Congratulations! Welcome home. I sense that there will be many more converts to Catholicism, just as there have been from the Anglican/Episcopal Church.


112 posted on 05/01/2007 4:37:21 PM PDT by Salvation (" With God all things are possible. ")
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To: bigcat32
Actually I just read that verse this morning!

Perhaps it's a divine clue... worthy of reflection.

113 posted on 05/01/2007 4:37:22 PM PDT by Barnacle (Hunter, Thompson, Gingrich, Tancredo, whoever. Just vote Conservative.)
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To: siunevada

**It could be more disconcerting, in my diocese the bishop has RCIA going for a full calendar year.**

As soon as Easter is over and there have been about a month of meetings for the neophytes, a new RCIA class starts at our church. There have been several interviews that I know of.


114 posted on 05/01/2007 4:39:28 PM PDT by Salvation (" With God all things are possible. ")
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To: stfassisi

Great quotes and focus!


115 posted on 05/01/2007 4:40:16 PM PDT by Salvation (" With God all things are possible. ")
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To: redgolum
The Sacraments

Lesson 15: AN INTRODUCTION TO THE SACRAMENTS

Restored Order of the Sacraments of Initiation? Confirmation and First Eucharist together? (Vanity)

"Virtual" Sacraments Ruled Out

Are Sacraments Narrow? (Imparting Grace through the Sacraments)

Catholic Caucus: Regarding Sinful priests, and Validity of Mass/Sacraments

The Early Church Fathers on The Real Presence - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus

The Early Church Fathers on Confession / Reconciliation - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus

The Early Church Fathers on Baptism - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus

116 posted on 05/01/2007 4:46:14 PM PDT by Salvation (" With God all things are possible. ")
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To: yetidog

Again I’ll say I am not an expert but if they were married in the Catholic Church then the marriage is of course valid. If she was confirmed as a Catholic then she would need no RCIA. He would need only a brief RCIA to cover the points he needs to know about Catholicism.

The problem might come about because many parishes have a one size fits all RCIA program. I am a cradle Catholic and I attended the full RCIA program a few years ago just as a “refresher”. Doing the whole program would be worthwhile.


117 posted on 05/01/2007 5:46:49 PM PDT by Straight Vermonter (Posting from deep behind the Maple Curtain)
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To: Salvation

I know of several.


118 posted on 05/01/2007 6:56:25 PM PDT by Hydroshock (Duncan Hunter For President, checkout gohunter08.com.)
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To: Charles Henrickson
Holy Absolution often is counted as the third sacrament, since it is indeed instituted by Christ himself and, by definition, delivers the forgiveness of sins. The only question with Absolution is whether or not there is a visible element. Is the person and voice of the pastor as the spokesman of Christ--is that considered the "visible element"? It can be looked at in that way.

Likewise with Holy Ordination. It can be counted as a sacrament in a sense, not for the benefit of the ordinand himself but for the benefit of those he will serve.

Very well stated...the profs at Gettysburg in the early late 1980's consistently affirmed "three or three and a half Sacraments" with precisely that logic.

I often cite this as an example of the veracity of the late Rev. Dr. Franklin Clark Fry's observation that "Lutherans are a bridge church; not quite Catholic but not really Protestant".

119 posted on 05/01/2007 8:22:06 PM PDT by lightman (If false accusation was rare it wouldn't be in the Ten Commandments!)
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To: Rocky Mountain Wild Turkey

They serve donuts after Mass on Sundays which I think is pretty cool and they’re free. Yahoo!


120 posted on 05/01/2007 8:25:45 PM PDT by Saundra Duffy (Mitt Romney for President !!!)
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