Posted on 05/06/2007 11:58:17 AM PDT by NYer
Are works a requirement or are they the result?
But closer to my alleged point: can I still be said to have saving faith if I don't understand your question or disagree with, say, Calvin's answer to it?
Yes, you can. Your motivation to do works is something between you & God. Men can be fooled by works, but God isn't.
MY motivation for everything I do is always lousy — invariably. These days I just hope and pray that God can somehow use what I do for His will despite my own personal crappy motivation. I can’t do anything right. HE, however, does stuff that makes the silk purse — sow’s ear trick look easy.
I’ve no idea why you wanna bring yourself that much misery, any more than I know why I sometimes do the same. Maybe my ex is right & I beat my head against walls, cuz it feels soooo good when I stop.
Oh, I don’t worry about it. I note it and move on. “Hey! Look at that dead person pretending to be alive! Weird.”
You can’t remove an anathema issued by an infallible council.
Yer hopeless. LOL
I like the entire quote."However, in January, at the suggestion of a dear friend, I began reading the Early Church Fathers as well as some of the more sophisticated works on justification by Catholic authors. I became convinced that the Early Church is more Catholic than Protestant and that the Catholic view of justification, correctly understood, is biblically and historically defensible. Even though I also believe that the Reformed view is biblically and historically defensible,
I did not know the "early church Fathers" were infallible . It seems to me that that period of time was time of the birth of heresies. Even many of the most quoted say things that contradict themselves and each other.
I do not know the author of this piece, his title does not impress me. All I would say to him is faith is not intellectual reasoning .
Well then let us reason with your c church fathers
- Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3.1.1
"They [heretics] gather their views from other sources than the Scriptures...We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith"
"I beg of you, my dear brother, to live among these books [scripture], to meditate upon them, to know nothing else, to seek nothing else."
- Jerome (Letter 53:10)
"For how can we adopt those things which we do not find in the holy Scriptures?"
- Ambrose (On the Duties of the Clergy, 1:23:102)
If you decide to sleep in Sunday and not go to mass you have committed a mortal sin and are hell bound if you do not rush to confession and do YOUR penance .
That is law keeping and a work
I’m sure that can be explained away by some “tradition” or another.
The relevant "tradition" would be Hebrews 10:25-31.
I didn't earn my salvation; it was given to me. It doesn't follow from that that I cannot throw it away.
Who, exactly, is this “doctor”; and why should I care about his “return” to any church?
So then you agree that you do not have a salvation of grace and mercy but one you earn by your works and law keeping
You have a salvation of merit not grace or mercy.
Sure...Churches split all the time...Often over some pretty minor things...But it does not constitute a new denomination when a split takes place...
Not at all.
If I give you a new Cadillac, and you don't change the oil, don't put air in the tires, and then wrap it around a tree at 80 mph, you don't have a new Cadillac anymore, but a pile of junk.
Only in the upside-down world of Protestant illogic does that make that new Cadillac anything other than a gift.
Catholics understand salvation as divine adoption. You can't earn adoption into a human family, much less into a divine one. That doesn't change the fact adopted sons are expected to comport themselves as sons.
But why am I arguing with you? It's God's inspired word in Hebrews 10 that you reject.
"They [heretics] gather their views from other sources than the Scriptures...We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith"
"I beg of you, my dear brother, to live among these books [scripture], to meditate upon them, to know nothing else, to seek nothing else." - Jerome (Letter 53:10)
"For how can we adopt those things which we do not find in the holy Scriptures?"
- Ambrose (On the Duties of the Clergy, 1:23:102)
Isn't it odd that a Catholic never posts this kind of information...Sometimes it looks as tho the church 'Fathers' rejected the Catholic religion as much as some of us do...Could be they were all Protestants...
Funny, nobody noticed that he hadn't met the quota until he became a Catholic.
Sometimes it looks as tho the church 'Fathers' rejected the Catholic religion as much as some of us do...Could be they were all Protestants...
If you can find Protestants who pray to the Virgin Mary (like Ambrose and Augustine), think that Christ's flesh and blood are truly present in the Blessed Sacrament (like Ignatius, Justin Martyr, and everyone else), and say that all churches must maintain apostolic unity with Rome (like Irenaeus did) ...
... then, yeah, sure they're Protestants.
Last I looked I had to pay someone to change my oil and rotate my tires because IT IS WORK
Now a better example would be you give me a new car and then YOU pick it up and change my oil and rotate my tires for me, and if I smash it up YOU pay the cost of repair for me..that is grace and that is mercy !
That is what Christ did for me !
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