The journey back - Dr. Beckwith explains his reasons for returning to the Catholic Church

Open Book ^ | May 6, 2007 | Amy Wellborn

[Iscool]

If you can find Protestants who pray to the Virgin Mary (like Ambrose and Augustine),

You know why we don't pray to Mary??? Because it's not in the scripture to do so or allowed...In fact, the scripture tells us NOT to bow before and pray to a statue of Mary...

But you say Ambrose prayed to Mary...

And what did Ambrose say about it???

"For how can we adopt those things which we do not find in the holy Scriptures?"
- Ambrose (On the Duties of the Clergy, 1:23:102)

And if Ambrose said this, there is no way he prayed to Mary...That's someone's fabrication...

[ears_to_hear]

Isn't it odd that a Catholic never posts this kind of information...Sometimes it looks as tho the church 'Fathers' rejected the Catholic religion as much as some of us do...Could be they were all Protestants...

Just could be :)

[ears_to_hear]

“We use Scripture to answer heresy and preceive that it is power and truth.”
- Basil the Great

Sola Scriptura !

[Campion]

Because it's not in the scripture to do so or allowed

No, you don't find it on the surface of scripture. That doesn't mean it isn't there.

...In fact, the scripture tells us NOT to bow before and pray to a statue of Mary

I didn't say anything about statues, did I?

And if Ambrose said this, there is no way he prayed to Mary...That's someone's fabrication...

I'll withdraw my comment about Ambrose praying to the Virgin, because I don't have hard evidence of it. I do have hard evidence that he considered her to be a Perpetual Virgin, and sinless (or practically so).

There was certainly Marian prayer before Ambrose; notably that of St. Ephrem the Syrian in the early 4th century.

Ambrose's pupil and protege, St. Augustine, wrote the following prayer:

O blessed Virgin Mary, who can worthily repay thee thy just dues of praise and thanksgiving, thou who by the wondrous assent of thy will didst rescue a fallen world? What songs of praise can our weak human nature recite in thy honor, since it is by thy intervention alone that it has found the way to restoration? Accept, then, such poor thanks as we have here to offer, though they be unequal to thy merits; and, receiving our vows, obtain by thy prayers the remission of our offenses. Carry thou our prayers within the sanctuary of the heavenly audience, and bring forth from it the antidote of our reconciliation. May the sins we bring before Almighty God through thee, become pardonable through thee; may what we ask for with sure confidence, through thee be granted. Take our offering, grant us our requests, obtain pardon for what we fear, for thou art the sole hope of sinners. Through thee we hope for the remission of our sins, and in thee, 0 blessed Lady, is our hope of reward. Holy Mary, succour the miserable, help the fainthearted, comfort the sorrowful, pray for thy people, plead for the clergy, intercede for all women consecrated to God; may all who keep thy holy commemoration feel now thy help and protection. Be thou ever ready to assist us when we pray, and bring back to us the answers to our prayers. Make it thy continual care to pray for the people of God, thou who, blessed by God, didst merit to bear the Redeemer of the world, who liveth and reigneth, world without end. Amen.

[Campion]

“We use Scripture to answer heresy and preceive that it is power and truth.” - Basil the Great

Sola Scriptura !

Yes, I think that using Scripture to answer the heresy of sola scriptura is a fine endeavor. 2 Thess 2:15.

However, sola scriptura flunks basic logic, so it can be refuted even without appealing to holy scripture. Who decided which books belonged in the NT?

[ears_to_hear]

The Holy Spirit

[ears_to_hear]

“Neither dare one agree with catholic bishops if by chance they err in anything, but the result that their opinion is against the canonical Scriptures of God.”
- Augustine (354–430) De unitate ecclesiae, 10

[Campion]

The Holy Spirit

And how, exactly, did the Holy Spirit make his will known?

[ears_to_hear]

Could you source that prayer ?

I know that by the time of Augustine the error of praying to Mary was a practice , but i can not source the prayer .

Thanks

[Campion]

“Neither dare one agree with catholic bishops if by chance they err in anything, but the result that their opinion is against the canonical Scriptures of God.”

Of course.

"Where Peter is, there is the Church. And where the Church is, no death is there, but life eternal." -- Ambrose of Milan.

[ears_to_hear]

Just as he did in His authorship, through inspiring men .

When was that canon officially closed Champion ?

[Campion]

I got it here. I've seen it in many places. I'll try to get you a citation back to Augustine's works, but it will have to be later.

I know that by the time of Augustine the error of praying to Mary was a practice

You think the Fathers taught sola scriptura (they didn't), and you want to use that to thrash Catholics, but on the other hand, we know they prayed to Mary, and you call that an "error".

How do you know which is an error and which is not, except to apply your own beliefs and practices and read them back into the Fathers? I have an objective, living standard of teaching and belief. You have the Bible, which is good, but which you must necessarily read through the lens of your own preconceptions and ideas, which is bad.

[Campion]

Campion, not Champion. After St. Edmund Campion, the Jesuit martyr.

Just as he did in His authorship, through inspiring men

You've just violated sola scriptura, because you're appealing to the "inspired" authority of someone other than the inspired authors of scripture.

[OLD REGGIE]

If you can find early Church Fathers who teach the co-equal status of the three-legged stool - Scripture, Tradition, and the Magesterium... then, yeah sure they’re Catholics.

[Campion]

They call themselves Catholics beginning in AD 110.

Ever heard of St. Vincent of Lerins?

[Campion]

the co-equal status of the three-legged stool - Scripture, Tradition, and the Magesterium

BTW, that isn't a formulation that any ecumenical council or Papal ex cathedra document has ever used.

[OLD REGGIE]

BTW, that isn't a formulation that any ecumenical council or Papal ex cathedra document has ever used.

Am I to believe that you don't accept the Catholic Catechism as a valid teaching?

95 "It is clear therefore that, in the supremely wise arrangement of God, sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium of the Church are so connected and associated that one of them cannot stand without the others. Working together, each in its own way, under the action of the one Holy Spirit, they all contribute effectively to the salvation of souls."

Catholic Catechism

[RobbyS]

Jaroslav Pelikan, the Orthodox writer, and former Lutheran, had this to say about the worksip of Mary. I won’t get into Latia, Dulia, and hyperdulia distinctions: The Orthodox worship icons because they worship the divnity in the saints and Mary. There is but one divinity and what we worship is Him manfest in Mary and the Saints and in an absolutely different way, Jesus. But the Scripture clearly tells us that holiness can reside in things, as when the woman touched the clothing of Jesus, and the sick were cured by touching the clothing of Paul.

[GoLightly]

If I give you a new Cadillac, and you don't change the oil, don't put air in the tires, and then wrap it around a tree at 80 mph, you don't have a new Cadillac anymore, but a pile of junk.

If you're the one who give it to me, then yeah, it would be a pile of junk after I did that. Only in the upside-down world of Protestant illogic does that make that new Cadillac anything other than a gift.

I noticed you said that you were the one giving the gift, equating that action of small man with God's gift.

But let's use your analogy, placing God in His proper role. God gives me a shiny new Caddy. Wooo Hooo Ooops, I don't take care of it & I wreck it. Booo Hooo Oh, woe is me. Now I have a wrecked Caddy. I try to get a bunch of different men to take it off of my hands. I don't want it anymore. But, none will take it. I'm stuck with it. It sits there serving to remind me of my screw up & I may even blame God for my sorry state. Why didn't He give me an indestructible Caddy? (small man, thinking he knows better than our Father)

In time, I repent & God forgives me. Whether or not He makes my Caddy whole again, I've no idea. Could be I need to have that wrecked Caddy around. His gifts to us aren't always what we think we want, but instead they are what we need.

God's gifts are never junk, even if we're not able to use them in the way we want to use them.

Catholics understand salvation as divine adoption. You can't earn adoption into a human family, much less into a divine one. That doesn't change the fact adopted sons are expected to comport themselves as sons.

We were kicked out of our brother's house, as we didn't comport ourselves as some of our brothers thought we ought. I think our Father is most saddened by our inability to get along with each other. He'd like to see all of us living under the same roof, but we'd bicker & fight even worse if we were... Til He returns & sets all to right. We need Him. At the point where we think we're getting it all together without Him, open your eyes & look, for it is a sign that we've been deceived.

But why am I arguing with you? It's God's inspired word in Hebrews 10 that you reject.

Huh?

[OLD REGGIE]

BTW, that isn't a formulation that any ecumenical council or Papal ex cathedra document has ever used.

Are you insisting on an exact formula, one which includes "three legged stool"? You won't find that, however you will find, if you pay attention, words which claim Scripture, Tradition, and the Magesterium claim essentially the same thing.

Let's take a look at the INFALLIBLE declaration of the Bodily Assumption Of Mary by Pius XII.

"all those things are to be believed by divine and Catholic faith which are contained in the written Word of God or in Tradition, and which are proposed by the Church, either in solemn judgment or in its ordinary and universal teaching office, as divinely revealed truths which must be believed."[9]

Pay special attention to "or in Tradition..." "and..."(The Magisterium).

You may note Scripture isn't necessary. If there is no proof in Scripture "Tradition" and "the Magisterium" is sufficient.

MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS - Pius XII

Look carefully for Scriptural proof. There is none. Though there are Scriptural references, none bear on the Bodily Assumption. Tradition and the Magisterium is required to "explain" it to you.