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Patty Bonds (former Baptist and sister of Dr. James White) to appear on The Journey Home - May 7
EWTN ^ | May 7, 2007 | Marcus Grodi

Posted on 05/07/2007 8:58:18 AM PDT by NYer


Patty Patrick Bonds Conversion

I was born and raised a Baptist. As a Baptist I enjoyed a close, intimate walk with God. I read His Word and I obeyed Him and He was everything to me. I was willing to follow Him anywhere and serve Him in any capacity. I never dreamed He would lead me far from my upbringing and to a place I would have never chosen to go.

I believed that any Catholic who had genuine faith in Christ and respected the Bible as the Word of God would follow Christ out of the Catholic Church. I honestly believed there were only a few misled Christians in the Catholic Church.

One day I came across the writings of St. Patrick of Ireland. I was looking for historical evidence of his existence, but never dreamed I would discover God’s will for my life. What I found in the writings of St. Patrick was evidence of deep devotion to Christ and a spiritual intimacy with Christ that I knew right away was true Christianity. He was my brother. Yet he was also a Catholic Bishop. This birthed in me a desire to understand Church history and when and where the Catholic Church had gone wrong (since my assumption from childhood was that the Catholic Church was apostate).

(See the Catholic Encyclopedia article on St. Patrick of Ireland )

For the next several months I read the writings of those men who had learned the Christian faith from the very mouth of Christ and the Apostles. I began to familiarize myself with the culture and time of the Apostles and realized that Christianity in its earliest days was not Bible centered (indeed most of the NT was not written yet and later was not available for the masses) but Tradition centered. I learned that when the early Christians went to Church their services were not sermon centered but centered around the Eucharist, the Lord’s Supper, which was not seen as a symbol but as the actual Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ. It was guarded and protected as such. Not a crumb was to be lost nor a drop spilt. I was shocked to find that the early Church did not even resemble my own Baptist church.

This led to many more months of earnest study of the Catholic faith. What I discovered is that everything I had been taught about the Catholic Church as a Baptist had been erroneous. Every objection that I had been engrained with since childhood was a falsehood about the Catholic Church and was easily refuted by an honest look at Church history.

By coming to an understanding of the time and culture and beliefs of the Early Church, my Bible began to read very differently. I realized that no document, even the inspired Word of God, can interpret itself. No one comes to Scripture without a grid through which they interpret it. My grid had always been very Protestant and very anti-sacramental. But after investigating the Early Church, I could clearly see that the Bible was a Catholic book; written by Catholics, for Catholics, canonized by the Bishops of the Catholic Church and preserved for Catholics for millennia to come.

I also discovered that I was one of many Christians devoted to Christ and willing to follow Him anywhere even at great personal loss that were reversing the mistakes of the Reformation and flocking back home to the One Church Christ established on this earth. I discovered through a series of books called, Surprised by Truth, that I was one of many that were headed home to Rome. (My story has been included in the third edition if you would like to learn more).

May God grant you the openness to see Him in His Holy Roman Catholic Church.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology
KEYWORDS: bonds; conversion
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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1 posted on 05/07/2007 8:58:19 AM PDT by NYer
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To: Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...

Patty has appeared on The Journey Home in the past. This should be a memorable program.


2 posted on 05/07/2007 9:01:27 AM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: NYer

I’ll have to try to catch this on the radio.


3 posted on 05/07/2007 9:02:13 AM PDT by Tax-chick ("And he had turned the Prime Minister's teacup into a gerbil.")
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To: Tax-chick
You can also download a .mp3 file (for up to a week after it airs) on the EWTN Podcast webpage (sometimes it takes a day or two after it airs before the latest one is available)

http://www.ewtn.com/podcast/

4 posted on 05/07/2007 9:11:08 AM PDT by GCC Catholic
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To: GCC Catholic

That’s beyond my technical abilities ... but I’ll probably be in the car this evening; just have to remember to turn the radio on!


5 posted on 05/07/2007 9:33:37 AM PDT by Tax-chick ("And he had turned the Prime Minister's teacup into a gerbil.")
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To: NYer

In other news.... Mr. White’s head will explode again.


6 posted on 05/07/2007 9:55:29 AM PDT by Jaded ("I have a mustard- seed; and I am not afraid to use it."- Joseph Ratzinger)
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Comment #7 Removed by Moderator

To: rrc
I was shocked to find that the early Church did not even resemble my own Baptist church.

For anyone raised in an Evangelical Church, it truly must come as a shock to read the Early Church Fathers and realize that the Mass celebrated in the Catholic Church today is the same one celebrated 2000 years ago. On the other hand, we Catholics need to remember that faith is a gift from God. In the case of Patty Bonds, the expression "Once I was blind but now I see" is a reflection of that gift. We need always to approach others with consistency but humility.

8 posted on 05/07/2007 11:29:09 AM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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Comment #9 Removed by Moderator

To: NYer

More heartburn for White.


10 posted on 05/07/2007 12:00:49 PM PDT by marshmallow
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And why exactly is this going to be memorable? I mean, really, so a well known protestant theologian and apologists sister joins the Roman Catholic church....and this somehow makes her significant?

Is she somehow automatically granted the status of apologist and theologian because her brother is? Is there some sort of familial importance beyond trying to rub his face in it that I don’t understand?

If Ron Paul’s sister suddenly decided to become a communist would you all consider it somehow a sign that Ron Paul’s beliefs about liberty were in error? What kind of fallacious reasoning is this?


11 posted on 05/07/2007 12:39:11 PM PDT by Shamgar
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To: Shamgar
Welcome to Free Republic!

Hope you'll watch Marcus Grodi's program this evening.

12 posted on 05/07/2007 1:22:18 PM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: NYer; Gamecock; Alex Murphy; Dr. Eckleburg
I learned that when the early Christians ...

Read "I've now been indoctrinated ..."

Another case of "Tiberculosis".

13 posted on 05/07/2007 1:45:20 PM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: Shamgar

It’s interesting because we were discussing this lady a few days ago, and now have the opportunity to hear her story on TV or radio if we choose. We also have the opportunity to spend our time doing something totally different.

How are you? Do you like penguins?


14 posted on 05/07/2007 1:45:57 PM PDT by Tax-chick ("And he had turned the Prime Minister's teacup into a gerbil.")
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`here we have a bible only baptist, and she discovers:......

That she never really believed the Bible anyway.

1 John 2:19  They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

15 posted on 05/07/2007 2:30:55 PM PDT by Howdy there
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To: Howdy there

You wrote: “That she never really believed the Bible anyway.”

She did believe it, and still does. Just now, she knows better what it means.


16 posted on 05/07/2007 2:35:04 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: topcat54

You wrote: “Read “I’ve now been indoctrinated ...”

So learning on her own is indoctrination? How do you figure that?

“Another case of “Tiberculosis”.

So in your view becoming a Catholic is a disease? Wow, what bigotry.


17 posted on 05/07/2007 2:37:48 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: topcat54; blue-duncan; Gamecock; Alex Murphy; HarleyD; Forest Keeper; 1000 silverlings
tiberculosis

LOL.

"These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them." -- 2 Peter 2:17-21


18 posted on 05/07/2007 2:42:42 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: NYer

** What I discovered is that everything I had been taught about the Catholic Church as a Baptist had been erroneous. Every objection that I had been engrained with since childhood was a falsehood about the Catholic Church and was easily refuted by an honest look at Church history.**

Oh, if we could only have her speak with some of the anti-Catholic posters on FR!!!!!!!!


19 posted on 05/07/2007 2:43:47 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: topcat54

**Another case of “Tiberculosis”.**

I don’t think so. She talks about faith above. Please re-read the article. (Finding the same faith that she had in St. Patrick.)


20 posted on 05/07/2007 2:47:54 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Praying that your mind may be opened to the Catholic faith.


21 posted on 05/07/2007 2:49:28 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: rrc
Other converts"

Patty Bonds (former Baptist and sister of Dr. James White) to appear on The Journey Home - May 7

Pastor and Flock Become Catholics

The journey back - Dr. Beckwith explains his reasons for returning to the Catholic Church

Famous Homosexual Italian Author Returned to the Church Before Dying of AIDS

Dr. Francis Beckwith Returns To Full Communion With The Church

Catholic Converts - Stephen K. Ray (former Evangelical)

Catholic Converts - Malcolm Muggeridge

Catholic Converts - Richard John Neuhaus

Catholic Converts - Avery Cardinal Dulles

Catholic Converts - Israel (Eugenio) Zolli - Chief Rabbi of Rome

Catholic Converts - Robert H. Bork , American Jurist (Catholic Caucus)

Catholic Converts - Marcus Grodi

Why Converts Choose Catholicism

The Scott Hahn Conversion Story

22 posted on 05/07/2007 2:53:23 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: topcat54; Gamecock; Alex Murphy; HarleyD; 1000 silverlings; Shamgar; Forest Keeper; blue-duncan; ...
For the next several months I read the writings of those men who had learned the Christian faith from the very mouth of Christ and the Apostles.

What is she talking about here? The Bible? What other Apostolic writings are there? Does she consider St. Patrick an Apostle???

I began to familiarize myself with the culture and time of the Apostles and realized that Christianity in its earliest days was not Bible centered (indeed most of the NT was not written yet and later was not available for the masses) but Tradition centered.

Every worship of every early Christian, then as well as today, was and should be centered on the word of God. Her history is as weak as her theology.

I learned that when the early Christians went to Church their services were not sermon centered but centered around the Eucharist, the Lord's Supper, which was not seen as a symbol but as the actual Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

None of this is true. The preaching of the word of God was and is always the centerpiece of all worship...

"And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God." -- Luke 4:4

And most certainly the Apostles themselves did not believe they were actually eating the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ because He was sitting alive alongside them as He instructed them to partake of the Lord's Supper -- "do this in remembrance of me."

Pity she has so much confusion in her life.

23 posted on 05/07/2007 3:05:13 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Salvation
Thank you for your concern, Salvation. You know I return it to you in kind.

One day all those who love Him and are loved by Him will be gathered together. I have all hope that we'll bump shoulders. 8~)

24 posted on 05/07/2007 3:08:03 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

You wrote: “What is she talking about here? The Bible? What other Apostolic writings are there? Does she consider St. Patrick an Apostle???”

LEARN TO READ. She wrote: “For the next several months I read the writings of those men who had learned the Christian faith from the very mouth of Christ and the Apostles.”

Notice the word “from”? She’s not saying the Apostles. She’s saying FROM the Apostles. The earliest Church Fathers, like Ignatius, learned from the Apostles.


25 posted on 05/07/2007 3:09:40 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

You wrote: “None of this is true. The preaching of the word of God was and is always the centerpiece of all worship...”

Incorrect. Paul in 1 Cor. 11 shows otherwise.

Also, don’t forget Acts:

Acts 2:42
They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.

Acts 2:46
Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart,

Acts 20:7
On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to leave the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight.

Acts 20:11
When he had gone back up and had broken the bread and eaten, he talked with them a long while until daybreak, and then left.

Acts 27:35
Having said this, he took bread and gave thanks to God in the presence of all, and he broke it and began to eat.

“Pity she has so much confusion in her life.”

She doesn’t. She is no longer a Protestant.


26 posted on 05/07/2007 3:16:04 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: vladimir998
None of the early church fathers "learned the Christian faith from the very mouth of Christ."

They all learned the words of Christ from the Holy Scriptures, written and spoken, just like you and I learn.

The boasting just gets bigger and bigger.

27 posted on 05/07/2007 3:16:16 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Every worship of every early Christian, then as well as today, was and should be centered on the word of God.

What authority do you have to tell other Christians how they "should" worship?

-A8

28 posted on 05/07/2007 3:17:28 PM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: vladimir998
Acts 2:42 They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.

And what do you think the Apostles taught while they were having dinner?

29 posted on 05/07/2007 3:18:45 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: adiaireton8
What authority do you have to tell other Christians how they "should" worship?

The Bible contains all authority.

There was a time not so long ago you told me not to post to you. I assume since you just posted to me you're not bound by your earlier pronouncement.

30 posted on 05/07/2007 3:21:26 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

You wrote: “None of the early church fathers “learned the Christian faith from the very mouth of Christ.”

Maybe not, but that wasn’t your original point of complaint. This was: “What is she talking about here? The Bible? What other Apostolic writings are there? Does she consider St. Patrick an Apostle???”

“They all learned the words of Christ from the Holy Scriptures, written and spoken, just like you and I learn.”

No, not just like you and I learn it. I learn it just as the early Church fathers did - within the Church. You don’t. You have appointed yourself your own church in essence. Also, you just said something akin to what Patty Bonds said. Do you really mean to say that Jesus’ words “from the Holy Scripture,” are both written and spoken? How can words from holy scripture be spoken when the very idea of “scriptures” means they were “written” and not just spoken. I think your minor mental lapse is akin to Bond’s.

“The boasting just gets bigger and bigger.”

Who’s boasting? Yours or Bond’s? If she is boasting, then you must be too. Maybe she just mispoke, made a mistake - just like you just did.


31 posted on 05/07/2007 3:22:37 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

You wrote: “And what do you think the Apostles taught while they were having dinner?”

Proper table manners, of course!

When actually celebrating the Eucharist I think they also taught the word of God - not much of which had been written down yet, of course. Hence, it is called the Apostles’ teaching.


32 posted on 05/07/2007 3:25:21 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
And most certainly the Apostles themselves did not believe they were actually eating the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ because He was sitting alive alongside them as He instructed them to partake of the Lord's Supper

"Most certainly"? He's God ... he can most certainly cause the Apostles to actually partake of his flesh and blood as he sits there beside them at the Last Supper. And, in fact, that's precisely what he said he did.

And witness to this is borne both by the plain words of Scripture and by the words of, e.g., Ignatius of Antioch, who did learn his faith personally from the Apostles.

33 posted on 05/07/2007 3:26:27 PM PDT by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: vladimir998
LOL. While I realize you'd really like to find some "mistake" in my post, there isn't one.

Perhaps the problem is with the ears.

34 posted on 05/07/2007 3:27:17 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

You wrote: “LOL. While I realize you’d really like to find some “mistake” in my post, there isn’t one.”

Actually, I would be more than happy to find no errors in your posts, but then you would no longer be posting what you believe in as a Protestant.

“Perhaps the problem is with the ears.”

Since my ears can’t see, that isn’t the problem. Nope. The problem is your error. Again, you wrote: “They all learned the words of Christ from the Holy Scriptures, written and spoken, just like you and I learn.”

Now, there is no way the words of Christ FROM THE HOLY SCRIPTURES could be anything but written since they are SCRIPTURE. We can say that we repeat Christ’s words as found in scripture, but if they are FROM scripture then they are written. Again, your error is similar to Bond’s. That’s okay. She seems like a wonderful Christian woman. I don’t think she’s bad company to have.


35 posted on 05/07/2007 3:31:57 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
The Bible contains all authority.

If the Bible interprets itself, then why are you presuming to speak for it? If the Bible does not interpret itself, then whose interpretation is authoritative?

There was a time not so long ago you told me not to post to you.

Not as I can recall. I remember making that request to another person, but not to you. Feel free to post to me if you wish.

-A8

36 posted on 05/07/2007 3:33:01 PM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: Campion
The "plain words" of Jesus Christ were...

"Do this in remembrance of me."

No wizardly incantation, no magical elevation in height, transmogrifies the bread and wine into the actual body and blood of Jesus Christ.

Christ is, however, present spiritually during the Lord's Supper, as He told us He would be.

37 posted on 05/07/2007 3:34:55 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Campion; Dr. Eckleburg
"[The Docetics] abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father in His graciousness, raised from the dead. And so denying the gift of God, these men perish in their disputatiousness."

- St. Ignatius of Antioch (107 AD)

38 posted on 05/07/2007 3:38:55 PM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
The "plain words" of Jesus Christ were

... not limited to what you quoted. Sorry, you don't get to create doctrine by taking one sentence and ignoring 50 or 60 others.

This is my body ... This is the blood of the new covenant, which will be shed for you and for many for the forgiveness of sins.

I am the bread of life. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.

Therefore, anyone who eats the bread or drinks the cup unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord.

Those are all in my Bible. I'm sorry they seem to have been stricken from yours. Even Martin Luther would tell you how wrong you are on this one.

39 posted on 05/07/2007 3:39:48 PM PDT by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: adiaireton8

... “It is better not to even speak of such men.”


40 posted on 05/07/2007 3:40:17 PM PDT by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
The "plain words" of Jesus Christ were... "Do this in remembrance of me."

Red herring. The relevant part is:

"touto estin to swma mou" ("Hoc est corpus meum"), ("This is My Body"). (Matt 26:26; Mark 14:22; Luke 22:19)

-A8

41 posted on 05/07/2007 3:43:18 PM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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Comment #42 Removed by Moderator

To: Campion; Dr. Eckleburg
And most certainly the Apostles themselves did not believe they were actually eating the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ because He was sitting alive alongside them as He instructed them to partake of the Lord's Supper

"How was Christ carried in His Own Hands? Because when He commended His Own Body and Blood, He took into His Hands that which the faithful know; and in a manner carried Himself, when He said, 'This is My Body.'"

- St. Augustine

43 posted on 05/07/2007 3:49:56 PM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: adiaireton8; topcat54; HarleyD; Gamecock; 1000 silverlings; OLD REGGIE; Uncle Chip; blue-duncan; ...
If the Bible interprets itself, then why are you presuming to speak for it?

Because I read the Bible wherein I learn that it is the word of God. Further, it instructs me (and all Christians) to preach the Gospel to all men.

If the Bible does not interpret itself, then whose interpretation is authoritative?

I just said the Bible does interpret itself. Men compare Scripture with Scripture and thus learn God's meaning. God gave us ears to hear and quickened minds to understand in order to rightly discern His word. Some will get it right, by the grace of God, and some won't. Regardless, the infallible measure of Scripture is Scripture because God has told us it is through His word that the Holy Spirit speaks to us and guides us in all righteousness.

Unless you don't believe the word of God.

"Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." -- John 14:17

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." -- John 14:26

"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me" -- John 15:26

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." -- John 16:13

"But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God." -- 1 Co 2:10

Your church places so many extra-Biblical rhinestones on the wooden cross of Christ it's no wonder God's word is so obscured.
44 posted on 05/07/2007 4:05:09 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
The Early Church Fathers on The Real Presence - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus

Early Church Fathers on (Oral) Tradition - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus

45 posted on 05/07/2007 4:08:16 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation

Thank you, but I’ll stick with Scripture.


46 posted on 05/07/2007 4:18:27 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Thank you, but I’ll stick with Scripture.

This wouldn't be a problem if you didn't *interpret* the Scriptures. But, you *do* interpret the Scriptures, through many different grids (Calvinism being one of them). Your refusal to study the fathers is what prevents you from looking at Scripture through a *different* paradigm, namely, the one the fathers (who were very close to the Apostles) held. Studying the fathers is what helped me (previously a Calvinist and Presbyterian) *see* that I was placing a Reformed interpretive grid upon the Scripture, and seeing all of Scripture through those glasses. Reading the fathers also helped me see the real possibility of a different way of fitting it all together, one that made better sense of the whole.

-A8

47 posted on 05/07/2007 4:28:52 PM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: NYer; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; Alex Murphy
(since my assumption from childhood was that the Catholic Church was apostate)

What she apparently fails to realize is that the denomination can be apostate (which it is) and still be the home of many sincere believers, such as Patrick of Ireland.

Thankfully our justification (standing before God) is not based on being a member of the correct denomination, but it is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone as we have it in the Scripture alone.

48 posted on 05/07/2007 4:34:58 PM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: rrc
ME: that whole paragraph is exactly what protestants dont want to hear, deny that is ever happened, and basically do the freep equivalent of holding their hands over their eyes, and going ‘nyaaaahhnnnyaaahhahahahah’.

On the contrary, I find Ms. Bonds conclusion exactly the opposite of what I found. St Patrick is an example of a person who fought against the Pelagius error, one that the Church has long since embraced even though they don't wish to admit it. Futhermore, you'll find in "the beautiful prayer of St. Patrick, "St. Patrick's Breast-Plate", no reference to the Virgin Mary. This, "Hail Mary full of grace" stuff, came long after he left the scene. Instead he states (in part):

Regrettably, St Patrick offers no mention of asking Mary to ask her Son to pray for him. Had Ms. Bond understood the ENTIRE history of the Church the outcome might have been different. Instead of relying upon fancy fables that were recorded hunderds of years after the fact, she might still be a Protestant today. However, IMO, the more Protestants do not read and understand the word of God, the closer they move to Rome.
49 posted on 05/07/2007 4:40:52 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: adiaireton8
I didn't say I don't study the early fathers of the church. I said I don't look to them for answers as I do to the Holy Scriptures.

I read the early church fathers like I read Calvin and Luther and New Advent, always through the lens of Scripture.

The church of Rome seems to stop at the early church fathers and forget every word these men wrote was supposed to be founded on Scritpure, just like yours and mine are supposed to be.

"These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them." -- 2 Peter 2:17-21


50 posted on 05/07/2007 4:48:56 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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