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Justified by Baptism (fallout from the Beckwith conversion grows)
Pontifications ^ | May 8, 2007 | Fr Alvin Kimel

Posted on 05/09/2007 10:01:17 AM PDT by NYer

Francis Beckwith’s announced return to the Catholic Church has generated an avalanche of invective and revilement from evangelicals. I have been stunned by what I have read. It is clear that in the minds of many the Catholic Church remains the hated Antichrist. To enter into her communion is to abandon the faith of the Apostles and to jeopardize one’s eternal salvation.

But some evangelicals have responded with sobriety and directed their reflections to the important theological differences between Catholicism and evangelicalism. Guy Davies, a Welsh Reformed preacher, identifies justification by faith as the crucial difference between the two traditions:

The Roman teaching on justification is that we are justified by grace at baptism. But this initial justification must be improved by our works. Does this understanding of justification really have greater ‘explanatory power’ than the Protestant view? Where in the New Testament is justification related to baptism? In the teaching of Paul, we are justified by faith apart from works. God’s declaration that we are right with him in Christ cannot be improved upon. The Roman Catholic teaching is not straightforward justification by works, because it is held that we are graciously justified at baptism. But the notion that our justification by grace must be supplemented by works is at best semi-Pelagian. The Catholic teaching downplays the seriousness of sin and calls into question the the freeness of God’s grace. Perhaps the Evangelicals and Catholics Together movement (here) has had the effect of blurring the dividing lines between Rome and the Reformation over justification? The new perspective on Paul has had a similar effect.

Davies rightly notes that the Catholic Church teaches that sinners are justified by grace, decisively communicated to the person in the Sacrament of Holy Baptism. But he asks, “Where in the New Testament is justification related to baptism?” Here we see the terrible reductionism of sola scriptura at work. Scripture is ripped from the eucharistic life of the Church and becomes a free-floating entity to which the beliefs and practices of the Church are then subjected according to alien hermeneutical criteria. For all within the eucharistic community the intrinsic connection between justification and baptism/Church is so manifest, so obvious, so clear, that no prooftexts from Scripture are needed. To be baptized is to be incorporated into the Church; to be incorporated into the Church is to be made a member of the body of Christ; to be made a member of the body of Christ is to be adopted as a son in the Son and regenerated in the Holy Spirit; to be adopted in sonship and regenerated in the Holy Spirit is to be elevated into the divine life of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. St Augustine saw clearly the union of justification and theosis:

It is clear that He calls men gods through their being deified by His grace and not born of His substance. For He justifies, who is just of Himself and not of another; and He deifies, who is God of Himself and not by participation in another. Now He who justifies, Himself deifies, because by justifying He makes sons of God. For to them gave He power to become the sons of God. If we are made sons of God, we are also made gods; but this is by grace of adoption, and not by generation. (Ennar. In Ps. 49.2)

Life in the Church is life in the Holy Trinity, and this simply is our justification. If a person cannot see this when he reads the New Testament, there can be only one response: read it again but this time read it with the Church and her Eucharist. It might also be noted that significant advances along these lines have been made in Lutheran-Orthodox ecumenical discussions (see One with God: Salvation as Deification and Justification by Veli-Matti Kärkkäinen).

But the New Testament is hardly silent on the relation of baptism and justification, though the relation between the two may not be as explicit and obvious as our evangelical brethren would like it to be. Peter Leithart notes two passages in particular:

At least twice, Paul makes a direction connection between baptism and justification. Having reminded the Corinthians that they had been the kind of people who do not inherit the kingdom, he goes on to remind them that they are no longer such people: “but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of God” (6:11). Is Paul taking about water baptism when he refers to “washing” or to some spiritual and invisible washing? I believe the former; the phrase “in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ” echoes the baptismal formulae of Matthew 28 and Acts, and the reference to the Spirit also links with baptismal passages (Acts 2; 1 Cor 12:12-13). This whole passage is in fact embedded in a baptismal formula: “you were washed . . . in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.” Note too that Paul marks the shift from what the Corinthians “were” to what they “are” by a reference to their baptism. They have become different folk by being baptized. What, though, is the relationship between the baptism and sanctification and justification? The connection here is not absolutely clear, but I suggest that sanctification and justification are two implications of the event of baptism. The pagan Corinthians have been washed-sanctified-justified by their baptism into the name of Jesus and the concommitant action of the Spirit.

Romans 6:7 is another passage where Paul links baptism and justification. He who has died, Paul writes, is “justified from sin.” And when, in context, does one die? “Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life” (vv. 3-4). Baptism into Christ means baptism into death; those who have been baptized have been crucified with Jesus; and those who are dead in and with Jesus have been justified from sin. Here, “justify” carries the connotation of deliverance from the power of sin. Through baptism, we die to our natural solidarity and society with Adam and brought into solidarity with and the society of Jesus.

I cite Leithart because he is a Reformed scholar. Lutheran, Anglican, and Catholic testimony could be quickly produced, but would also be just as quickly dismissed by evangelicals. Having recently re-read Paul’s Epistle to the Romans, I truly wonder how anyone can miss the union of justification and baptism. Do evangelicals stop at Roman 4:25? How can they not see that Paul’s discussion of justification in the first four chapters must be interpreted in light of Paul’s subsequent discussion of the death and resurrection of the believer in baptism and his rebirth in the Holy Spirit? They do not see, because they are reading their Bible through evangelical spectacles. There is a blindness that only the healing of Eucharist and the authentic teaching of the Church can cure.

In the conclusion of his short article, Leithart makes a turn which Martin Luther would have thoroughly approved:

There is a key difference between the Word declared in the gospel, and the declaration effected by baptism. The Word offers the favor of God generally; baptism declares that God favors me in particular. If baptism is not the public declaration of justification, where does that public declaration take place? Is it ever heard on earth, about me in particular? Is it heard anywhere but in my heart? … It appears to me that justification by faith and forensic justification are difficult to maintain apart from a strong view of baptismal efficacy, without saying that in baptism God Himself says something about me in particular.

I would want to significantly expand the relation between justification and baptism (Leithart would also, I’m sure), but this is a good place to begin. As soon as one sees the intrinsic connection between justification and baptism, the New Testament begins to read very differently. Perhaps Dr Beckwith had this in mind when he wrote on his blog: “Even though I also believe that the Reformed view is biblically and historically defensible, I think the Catholic view has more explanatory power to account for both all the biblical texts on justification as well as the church’s historical understanding of salvation prior to the Reformation all the way back to the ancient church of the first few centuries.”


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Evangelical Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; religion
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To: CharlesWayneCT
It’s not like he’s going to win them the pennant now, is it?

It all depends on who we got in trade. :-)

51 posted on 05/09/2007 5:02:11 PM PDT by Larry Lucido (Duncan Hunter 2008 (or Fred Thompson if he ever makes up his mind))
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To: diamond6

I have a church full of former Catholics that feel they were misled and deceived by the Catholic church ..


52 posted on 05/09/2007 5:03:44 PM PDT by ears_to_hear
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To: editor-surveyor
I assume only what the Lord himself said, and the fruit of his apostles demonstrate daily.
Where did Our Lord say that EVERYONE was an Apostle and had Apostolic Authority?
53 posted on 05/09/2007 5:13:22 PM PDT by narses ("Freedom is about authority." - Rudolph Giuliani)
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To: ears_to_hear

All four of them, right? As opposed to the more than one BILLION who hold dear the True Church.


54 posted on 05/09/2007 5:14:08 PM PDT by narses ("Freedom is about authority." - Rudolph Giuliani)
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To: ears_to_hear

So? What was the meaning the Council intended? The Church does not ever “damn” anyone to hell.


55 posted on 05/09/2007 5:15:18 PM PDT by narses ("Freedom is about authority." - Rudolph Giuliani)
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To: narses

LOL, Actually we have as many at our services on Sundays as most local Catholic churches do.

How is it that if there is all that comfort in the Catholic church under threat of going to hell 75% of Catholics still do not go to church


56 posted on 05/09/2007 5:26:23 PM PDT by ears_to_hear
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To: narses

Sure they do. Read trent.


57 posted on 05/09/2007 5:27:27 PM PDT by ears_to_hear
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To: ears_to_hear

I have, they don’t. But you sure do, why?


58 posted on 05/09/2007 5:46:37 PM PDT by narses ("Freedom is about authority." - Rudolph Giuliani)
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To: narses
"Where did Our Lord say that EVERYONE was an Apostle and had Apostolic Authority?"

Whenever he spoke, he spoke to all of us, and Paul reiterated all of it in his epistles, where he was always speaking to the church, not to the original disciples. The power of the Holy Spirit is working just as much today as at Pentecost.

59 posted on 05/09/2007 6:19:41 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Turning the general election into a second Democrat primary is not a winning strategy.)
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To: editor-surveyor

So you deny the Apostles Creed?


60 posted on 05/09/2007 6:22:18 PM PDT by narses ("Freedom is about authority." - Rudolph Giuliani)
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To: narses

The apostles creed is a humanist crutch that has no spiritual meaning. Your faith can move the mountain, or not.


61 posted on 05/09/2007 6:25:44 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Turning the general election into a second Democrat primary is not a winning strategy.)
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To: ears_to_hear
I have a church full of former Catholics that feel they were misled and deceived by the Catholic church

Well, they're wrong.

They were allowed to remain in their ignorance by priests who didn't preach the Gospel. They were allowed to remain in their sins by priests who didn't tell them to make a good confession monthly.

(How many of those ex-Catholics really went to confession monthly? I'll bet ... zero.)

They were allowed to remain far from God by priests who didn't tell them that daily prayer and Bible study aren't really optional. They were allowed to know the frustration of trying to do the impossible by priests who didn't tell them the fundamental and very Catholic truth that we do nothing and conquer no sin apart from a trusting, childlike faith in the grace of God.

And most of the time, those priests did those things primarily because they wanted to be popular and not "rock the boat".

But most of all, your exes allowed themselves to do and to be all of those things by their own laziness and sinfulness, and their own cowardice in running away rather than demanding ... forcing ... insisting that priests and bishops teach them real Catholicism.

I'm a cradle Catholic, ETH. I lived through the garbage catechesis of the years immediately after Vatican II, catechesis that could just as well have been tailor-made by Satan to lead people out of the church.

I know exactly where they're coming from: I lived it. There but for the grace of God go I, hmm.

But some time spent reading and studying and searching out good spiritual leadership didn't hurt, either. It's there in the Catholic church, but it takes some courage and effort to find it.

62 posted on 05/09/2007 6:56:47 PM PDT by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: ears_to_hear
Cursing someone to hell is not the same thing as making a judgment on the spiritual condition of a man at a certain period of time

Well, yes, actually, what you're doing is exactly the same as what Trent did, except that (if you look in the liturgy of the anathema) they consigned the anathematized one to the mercy of God and made it clear that it was only "in our judgment" that he was damned.

While you seem to think you can pronounce sentence with the authority of the Almighty.

63 posted on 05/09/2007 7:00:35 PM PDT by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: NYer; ears_to_hear; Alex Murphy; Gamecock
To enter into her communion is to abandon the faith of the Apostles and to jeopardize one’s eternal salvation.

Well, not exactly.

But it is to knowingly accept unbiblical doctrine. It is to exchange the clarity of the words of the Apostles for the words of a biased group, the magisterium.

64 posted on 05/09/2007 7:11:11 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: ears_to_hear

But you know that he’s passed over others just to pick you.

I can’t imagine how that feels.


65 posted on 05/09/2007 7:15:07 PM PDT by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
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To: Campion
Who appointed you his judge?

God Himself did, haven't you been paying attention?

What, do you think he is like other men?

66 posted on 05/09/2007 7:21:11 PM PDT by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
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To: RobbyS
I find it assuring that the Catholic Church tells me the truth about Jesus Christ.

For that sort of heresy, you will surely burn in Hell! Or so say the Chosen Ones! ;-)

67 posted on 05/09/2007 7:23:27 PM PDT by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
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To: Campion

Campion, if it weren’t for Catholic posters like you, I probably would not come on this forum again.

What you have written in this post could be part of my own autobiography.

It was worth all the struggle in the years following Vat. II—the struggle to persevere and to love this Church and this faith with a love that can’t die, with God’s grace to help me. I thank God that I—and my house—came through and remain.

And yes, it takes reading and Scripture and prayer and Confession and the Sacraments. Always has and always will.

Thanks once again.


68 posted on 05/09/2007 7:29:03 PM PDT by Running On Empty
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To: FormerLib
But you know that he’s passed over others just to pick you. I can’t imagine how that feels.

Humbling and unworthy .

69 posted on 05/09/2007 8:03:28 PM PDT by ears_to_hear
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To: ears_to_hear
Humbling and unworthy.

But now you are superior and pridefully declaring yourself to be so. It is unimaginable to this lowly Christian.

70 posted on 05/09/2007 8:12:31 PM PDT by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
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To: Campion
1. An anathema is a formal excommunication; only God has the power to damn someone. The penalty of "anathema" does not exist in canon law since 1983. 2. Any textbook of canon law will tell you that canonical penalties only apply to those within the church. Post 18

The canons themselves are in force. The penalty of "anathema" doesn't exist in the 1983 CIC, so the anathema sit penalty clause is inoperative. But the errors condemned remain errors. Post 27

Two questions please: 1. How does the "since 1983" reconcile with the Vincentian Canon without reclaiming the split of east and west? Leaving Trent et al out of it, I'm just looking at such a major statement on its own. 2. As to the those within the church, Who is "within the church" given we are speaking of the "Church Visible" (I'm use to this 2nd question being ignored by NYer, so I won't be offended, if you speak only to my first question)?

71 posted on 05/09/2007 8:22:47 PM PDT by WhoHuhWhat
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To: ears_to_hear
Scripture tells us to judge and how to judge

God dose not abandon or orphan us, He loves us as His children. He is our Father and the perfect, loving Father He left for us a visible Church which has authority, in fact in matters of the faith , perfect authority.

If you take a look Matthew 18:15-17, you will find that it is the Church that has the authority to settle disputes. Like wise, it is the Church alone that is promised perfection, take a look at Matthew 16:18, what is hell but imperfection made present, it is the embodiment of all that is not perfect. The Church, as Christ promised is perfect (its members, however are sinners, every one). But where is the Church? She is with Peter and the Apostles, they alone were given the power to bind and loose, and peter alone was given the keys and a particular commission to feed and teach His sheep and lambs.

The Revelation of the fullness of the message of salvation flows only through Christ to His Apostles and the Church, this is not to say that you and other believers are not in possession to some understanding of the Gospel, but it is an understanding burdened by a self imposed limitation, specifically the abandonment of the Church in favor of the novel idea of sola scriptura. Take for example your use of 1 Corinthians in reference to the authority to judge, it is no wonder that you made no use of the fourth chapter of that book, it serves you not. We are called to judge that which can be observed objectively, but not in the role of the Eternal Judge but for our own good, avoidance, and for the good of the sinner, to help call that sinner out of darkness ( a work of grace, the kind James wrote about).

God gave us the Church, through which He gave us the full canon of Scripture, a tool which the Church uses to instruct us on the good news of salvation, such a tool should not be used to whack a brother about for sport or self aggrandizement.

72 posted on 05/09/2007 8:54:29 PM PDT by conservonator (Pray for those suffering)
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To: ears_to_hear

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/mayweb-only/119-33.0.html

Unplug your ears and listen. You keep talking to yourself. He does NOT believe what you are saying he believes.


73 posted on 05/09/2007 9:15:21 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: editor-surveyor

Of course he was talking to the Church, Of course the Holy Spirit is speaking today. But read the book of acts naively and see that always the Way was taught by people OF AUTHORITY. And how did they acquire that authority? By association with those who are presented in Acts as having authority, those, in other words, who were inspired. The Word leapt from person to person, most often by people steeped in the JEWISH Scriptures AND inspired by God. We do not know what taught Apollos—Scripture doesn’t say— but SOMEONE did, and his teachings were sanctioned by someone who know was inspired by God,that is Paul. And according to Acts, Paul who claimed to an independent revelation of truth nonethless always went back to the Church to report and to substantiate that his words were those of the Church and so were the words taught in the church communities he founded.


74 posted on 05/09/2007 9:27:57 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: WhoHuhWhat
I don't understand your first question, sorry. The "1983" refers to the promulgation of the new code of canon law, which did not contain (any longer) the formal penalty of anathema. I don't know if that clarifies anything or not.

As to the those within the church, Who is "within the church" given we are speaking of the "Church Visible"

This is somewhat complex. I would direct you to Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Book 4, part 2, chapter 5 on the necessity of membership in the church.

My understanding is that someone would be considered a Catholic at least from the POV of church discipline (not necessarily from the POV of soteriology) who has been validly baptized, has professed the Catholic faith (or is not yet old enough to do so), and has not "defected from the [Catholic] faith by a formal act". (That would include, among other things, publicly adhering to another religion.)

Someone born into a Protestant family and raised professing a Protestant faith would probably be validly baptized, but would not have professed the Catholic faith, and (if there were any doubt of that) probably regularly "defects from the [Catholic] faith by a formal act".

75 posted on 05/09/2007 9:33:29 PM PDT by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: FormerLib
What, do you think he is like other men?

And I thank God that he is not like all other men, not even like me, a poor sinner. :-)

(Allow me to gush about your communion a moment. I used to hang out on an Orthodox list ... it was pretty heavily a ROCOR list, but there were other Orthodox there, too. Oh, yeah, we butted heads ... some of them even did the Luther imitation and trashed the Pope as antiChrist, etc.

But y'all have the Christian humility thing and the imitatio Christi down. You understand it at a deep level. There would be posts there from holy Orthodox priests with brilliant theological and patristic insights ... signed "Fr. Maximos, an unworthy sinner".

I didn't always agree, but I grew to admire and appreciate.)

76 posted on 05/09/2007 9:41:47 PM PDT by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: Running On Empty
You're very welcome.

Better times are coming. Keep the faith!

77 posted on 05/09/2007 9:52:16 PM PDT by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: NYer

“The Catholic teaching downplays the seriousness of sin”. What a load of nonsense this is. It is my experience having been to numerous different Protestant, Evangelical and Pentecostal Chruches that the Catholic Church is far more serious about sin and it’s effect on us and those around us! To infer that Catholic baptism and the Catholic’s doctrine of justification somehow allows it’s adherence to think less of sin is stupid at best in fact I find the reverse to be true.

Mel


78 posted on 05/10/2007 2:54:14 AM PDT by melsec (A Proud Aussie)
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To: NYer

If the ultimate success is to lead the lost soul to Christ, who am I to criticize which branch of service is joined - if I truly am the servant I claim?


79 posted on 05/10/2007 3:23:03 AM PDT by azhenfud (The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.)
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To: ears_to_hear; Campion
ETH: I must have missed the post where someone actually Catholic suggested that we Catholics are in need of your "reformed" opinions as to what we ought to believe or how we ought to conduct the internal governance of our Faith. Where was that?

Not that I intend to accommodate you by prolonging the exchange but each and every Scriptural citation in your #21 can be used against your position by Catholics as easily or more so than you use each of them in apparent advancement of the "reform."

80 posted on 05/10/2007 7:46:35 AM PDT by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline of the Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: RobbyS
" Paul who claimed to an independent revelation of truth nonethless always went back to the Church to report and to substantiate that his words were those of the Church and so were the words taught in the church communities he founded."

Actually, it was the other way around after a very short time. There was general agreement among the body, but Paul had to rebuke both Peter and Barnabas when they faltered. That is what the church is: believers bouncing their beliefs off of each other to see who is heading astray. The written word is the only "authority" we have, and all must be held to that standard.

81 posted on 05/10/2007 10:49:13 AM PDT by editor-surveyor (Turning the general election into a second Democrat primary is not a winning strategy.)
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To: FormerLib

Discuss the issues all you want but do NOT make it personal.


82 posted on 05/10/2007 10:54:10 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Religion Moderator
But self aggrandizement is the issue.
83 posted on 05/10/2007 11:13:01 AM PDT by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
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To: editor-surveyor

“Bouncing their beliefs off of one another?” In any case, Paul had virtual autonomy in his missionary area, which was the Northeast or at least the Churches he established in Asia and Greece and finally in Ephesus where he acted as a virtual patriarch. That authority was rooted in conformity with the teachings of the Church the authority of the churches he founded was rooted in his. One purpose of his later jouneys as well as his letters was to make sure that those pastors were toeing the line. I simply don’t see how one can read Acts and not understand that the government of the church depicted as
based on authority and disciple, both enforced by the leaders of the Church with Paul as their hierarch.


84 posted on 05/10/2007 11:41:51 AM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: Campion
You are absolutely right. My first question was too narrow and my second too broad within the context of this thread.

Unfortunately, Ludwig Ott's, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, is still being sold vs. grabbed off the net (impressive for its publish date).

My understanding is that someone would be considered a Catholic at least from the POV of church discipline (not necessarily from the POV of soteriology)...

Perhaps this statement can bring both questions into focus. Is the "Church Visible" equated with the Roman Catholic Church in toto (as opposed to the Church Catholic)? For example, do Bp Lancelot Andrews and St Theophan the Recluse remain outside of it? Or worse: were they outside, but let in later by a council in which neither the Orthodox or Anglicans were invited to attend? When Pope Benedict XVI met with His Holiness Bartholomew was it a meeting of two members of the Visible Church?

If you believe Ludwig Ott's work would explain this question without the "or worse" option, then I'm off to amazon. Either way, thank you for your reply.

85 posted on 05/10/2007 6:57:01 PM PDT by WhoHuhWhat
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To: RobbyS

That idea is what our Lord said he despised; he called it nicolaitan, greek for tyranny.


86 posted on 05/10/2007 9:19:03 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Turning the general election into a second Democrat primary is not a winning strategy.)
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To: WhoHuhWhat
Is the "Church Visible" equated with the Roman Catholic Church in toto (as opposed to the Church Catholic)? For example, do Bp Lancelot Andrews and St Theophan the Recluse remain outside of it? Or worse: were they outside, but let in later by a council in which neither the Orthodox or Anglicans were invited to attend?

Again, this is a complex question, particularly in regard to the Orthodox, since they have valid sacraments.

However, since an anathema is a formal excommunication, and neither of the persons you mention were in communion with the Roman Pontiff (and therefore not able to be excommunicated), it stands to reason that they are outside the boundaries of the visible Catholic Church at least in the most narrow juridical sense -- that is, in the sense applicable in matters of church discipline.

Another test, a practical one. Suppose that Bp Andrews married someone, about whom we need not worry except to assert that she was baptized, but not a Catholic. Catholics are required to obey the "Catholic form" of marriage, meaning that their marriage must be witnessed by a cleric or appropriate dispensations must be granted. If Bp Andrews and his wife had then entered the Catholic church, their marriage would have been viewed as valid, since they were juridically outside the Catholic church when they contracted it and were not bound by Catholic marriage law.

When Pope Benedict XVI met with His Holiness Bartholomew was it a meeting of two members of the Visible Church?

It all depends ... maybe. :-)

87 posted on 05/10/2007 10:26:44 PM PDT by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: editor-surveyor

Did our Lord speak to his disciples in Greek? IAC, I do not think of all authority as authoritarn. The radical writer, C. Wirght Mills, said there are three forms of power: authority, manipulation and force. Authority requires consent. Manipulations forces the will as force the body. Peter and Paul followed Our Lord, and the Spirit. The Spirit gives authority.


88 posted on 05/10/2007 10:31:00 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: RobbyS
"Did our Lord speak to his disciples in Greek?"

The first written record of what he said is in greek, so greek it is.

The word as written is the authority. Humans are not just fallible, they are evil to the core, so that which is spoken by men must be filtered through the word.

89 posted on 05/11/2007 4:25:01 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Turning the general election into a second Democrat primary is not a winning strategy.)
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To: editor-surveyor

If men are evil, then they are quite capable of misinterpreting even the written word especially if the words are in a language not their own. I assume you didn’t grow up speaking koine in your home.


90 posted on 05/11/2007 7:23:54 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: RobbyS

To grossly misinterpret the written word requires intention. The Holy spirit guided the translators of the KJV/Geneva texts as surely as he guided all those that made their own copies of Paul’s letters out of a desire to spread his spirit inspired teaching.

I strongly believe in a living, active God, that will not allow his word to be lost. He protects it all to protect us; read Psalm 91 a few times.


91 posted on 05/11/2007 7:37:25 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Turning the general election into a second Democrat primary is not a winning strategy.)
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To: editor-surveyor
No, you believe that the Holy Ghost guided the translators of the KJB. The inconvenient facts are that they were dependent on imperfect Greek documents. This approach reminds me of the claims by the Mormons that Joseph Smith found golden tablets in an ancient language which he then translated infallibly into English. That kind of infallibility we don’t claim for the pope.
92 posted on 05/11/2007 7:46:06 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: RobbyS
"The inconvenient facts are that they were dependent on imperfect Greek documents'

I have to disagree completely with that. It is the majority text, not by just a plurality, but by thousands to one or two. To believe in a God that cannot protect his word is to diminish God to man's level. The protective patterns in those texts are far beyond anyone but God to produce; that is the clincher of the digital age; mathematical beauty far greater than the most powerful computers can produce.

Comparing God's perfect word with masonic deception like Smith's is blasphemy.

93 posted on 05/11/2007 8:26:34 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Turning the general election into a second Democrat primary is not a winning strategy.)
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To: editor-surveyor

I do not doubt that the words are inspired, but I do not see why I should think that the committee that produced the KJB, or the translators of earlier English versions, should have enjoyed any more protection from error than St. Jerome when he translated much of the Bible into contemporary Latin. Jerome was not only fluent in Greek and Hebrew but had copies of the Scripture which were not available to English scholars working 1000 years later.


94 posted on 05/11/2007 10:03:17 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: RobbyS

Yet they got it right in English, soon to be the primary language of the world, and Jerome’s vulgate had numerous apparently deliberate, politically derived errors, which were prevented from affecting the spread of the Gospel due to the death of latin. God has a plan.


95 posted on 05/12/2007 2:50:28 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Turning the general election into a second Democrat primary is not a winning strategy.)
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To: editor-surveyor

God indeed has a plan, but if it was to make English the “primary language” of the world, he took long enough. The universality of the English language does not go back even 200 years while Latin was the language of the liturgy for most of Europe for a thousand years and for most of the Americas for the past five hundred. You do seem to think that the scholars appointed by King James were divinely inspired, but I have to reason to think so. For the ordinary person, the English of that Bible is almost as hard to comprehend as Latin is for a speaker of Italian. As an evangelixing medium, therefore, it definitely has its limits.


96 posted on 05/12/2007 4:16:32 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: RobbyS
" As an evangelixing medium, therefore, it definitely has its limits."

As an evangelizing medium, its without equal. It is the source of the translations of almost all of the asian and south american native language bibles that were done by the Wycliff group, along with many Pacific island dialects of the polynesian language. It is one of the Lord's most magnificent works.

97 posted on 05/12/2007 6:37:35 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Turning the general election into a second Democrat primary is not a winning strategy.)
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To: editor-surveyor

So why do you need the English Bible? Wouldn’t it be better just to go to copies in the original Greek and.or Hebrew, as Jerome did and the translators of the KJB?


98 posted on 05/12/2007 6:46:12 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: RobbyS
"So why do you need the English Bible?"

Because that's the Bible that God sent to us to restore his word. The ressurection of the church from the dark ages required the ressurection of his word across the world.

99 posted on 05/13/2007 7:02:12 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Turning the general election into a second Democrat primary is not a winning strategy.)
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