Skip to comments.The Reality of Romanism
Posted on 05/17/2007 10:08:04 AM PDT by Gamecock
Reading Francis Beckwith's interview with David Neff in Christianity Today, reminded me of how idyllic the Roman church can seem in the minds of those who embrace it (Click here: Q&A: Francis Beckwith | Christianity Today | A Magazine of Evangelical Conviction).
But then this news report appeared today which gives a much different picture of the supposed glories of Romanism (Click here: Pope to canonize first Brazilian saint - Yahoo! News).
All discussion of justification, the authority of Scripture, and reciting the Creed aside, the Pope is heading to Brazil to canonize Antonio de Sant'Anna Galvao, a Franciscan monk who is credited with 5000 miraculous healings. Over 1 million people are expected to be in attendance. The healings supposedly come as a result of swallowing rice paper pills prepared by the monk over two hundred years ago. According to the AP news report . . .
"The Vatican has officially certified the medical cases of two Brazilian women as divinely inspired miracles that justify the sainthood of Galvao. Both of these women spoke of their faith with The Associated Press, claiming that their children would not be alive today were it not for the tiny rice-paper pills that Friar Galvao handed out two centuries ago.
Although the friar died in 1822, the tradition is carried on by Brazilian nuns who toil in the Sao Paulo monastery where Galvao is buried, preparing thousands of the Tic Tac-sized pills distributed free each day to people seeking cures for all manner of ailments. Each one is inscribed with a prayer in Latin: `After birth, the Virgin remained intact. Mother of God, intercede on our behalf.'
Sandra Grossi de Almeida, 37, is one such believer. She had a uterine malformation that should have made it impossible for her to carry a child for more than four months. But in 1999, after taking the pills, she gave birth to Enzo, now 7. `I have faith," Grossi said, pointing to her son. I believe in God, and the proof is right here.'
Nearly 10 years before that, Daniela Cristina da Silva, then 4 years old, entered a coma and suffered a heart attack after liver and kidney complications from hepatitis A. `The doctors told me to pray because only a miracle could save her,' Daniela's mother Jacyra said recently. `My sister sneaked into the intensive care unit and forced my daughter to swallow Friar Galvao's pills.'"
So, if you "return home" to Rome, you get the whole ball of wax, including the beatification of saints who give out Tic-Tac size rice-paper pills which supposedly heal. And Pope Benedict XVI will be there to bless it all.
By the way, confessional Protestants affirm the historical evangelical doctrine of justification by grace alone, through faith alone, on account of Christ alone, and the full authority of Scripture. And yes, we even recite the Creed every Lord's Day and we use a biblical-text based liturgy which is quite similar to that described by Justin Martyr in the second century.
Too bad Dr. Beckwith didn't consider a confessional Protestant church before embracing Romanism. Now he's stuck with Antonio de Sant'Anna Galvao and his rice-paper healing pills.
Yes, but only if he was elevated as high as an elephant’s eye before being released.
If I've misunderstood you, it wouldn't be the first time. 8~)
I had a lot of difficult things to do today and I've effectively ignored every one of them. So for that fact alone, let's call it a draw.
All eyes on Christ; all hearts in Christ...
"Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ" -- 2 Corinthians 10:5
33,000+ denominations of Protestantism and counting
I was at the library one day researching something, and I saw the much talked about Protestant reference, the World Christian Encyclopedia by David B. Barrett, George T. Kurian, and Todd M. Johnson (2001 edition). I thought I’d see for myself what it says. This is what I found....
David Barrett, et al, does indeed refer to “over 33,000 denominations in 238 countries.” (Table 1-5, vol 1, page 16). This refers to his unique definition of a “Christian denomination” but does not include small ones (congregations of a couple hundred or less), which would dramatically increase this number beyond all imagination. Barrett also states there are 242 total Roman Catholic denominations (year 2000 numbers). So I looked into what he believed these denominations were.
Barrett breaks down his encyclopedic reference by country. So I looked up how many Roman Catholic denominations are within the U.S. according to Barrett. Much to my surprise, Barrett shows ONLY ONE Roman Catholic denomination for the United States.
So I wondered where the heck are these 242 denominations? I looked in Barrett’s reference for Britain, and again he listed ONLY ONE Roman Catholic denomination. I thought surely that of the 238 countries within his encyclopedic reference there must be a country that had more than ONE Roman Catholic denomination. There wasn’t. I could not find one country listed by Barrett that had more than ONE Roman Catholic denomination.
So, what does Barrett mean when he states there are 242 Roman Catholic denominations? It seems Barrett is counting each country as it’s own denomination. So, for Barrett, the Roman Catholic Church of the USA is a different denomination than the Roman Catholic Church of Canada. I don’t know how he got 242 denominations from 238 countries listed, however. Some numbers from Barrett’s...
Denominations / Paradenominations:
Under U.S. Country Table 2, of the 6,222 US denominations, there’s only ONE Roman Catholic denomination listed, and there’s 60 Orthodox denominations. Barrett labels the rest of the denominations: Protestant, Anglican, Independent, and Marginal. The more commonly accepted classification of Christianity used even by Protestant scholars, such as Leslie Dunstan in his book Protestantism, Christianity consists of: (1) Catholic, (2) Orthodox, and (3) Protestant. So, using this more commonly understood classification....
Number of U.S. Denominations
Remember, the above numbers are derived using Protestant sources only. Barrett differs from other Protestants such as Dunstan as to what constitutes a Protestant denomination. What Dunstan would call Protestant, Barrett describes as:
That’s just for the U.S. Yet, there’s but ONE Catholic denomination in the U.S., either by Dunstan or Barrett’s standard.
Another way of looking at it is not to use Barrett’s fuzzy understanding of denominations at all. What does Webster call a denomination? Let’s see... Webster calls a ‘denomination’ a “a religious organization uniting local congregations in a single legal and administrative body.” The category called “Protestantism,” since it does not actually “unite” any local congregation into a “single legal and administrative body,” is more accurately a grouping of denominations rather than a denomination, according to Webster’s definition. How does one know if their “denomination” is of the Protestant kind?
You might be a Protestant if....
(1) You believe the Bible consists of only 66 books
(2) You believe authority rests with Scripture Alone (Sola Scriptura)
(3) You believe justification is by Faith Alone (Sola Fide)
How many of the “denominations” listed by Barrett fall into this category? I’m betting over 33,000. Let’s look at it this way, of the 33,000 that Barrett classifies, which ones refute the pillars of Protestantism shown above? (a) Catholic Church, (b) Oriental Orthodox (5th century schism), (c) Eastern Orthodox (11th century schism). Any others? Perhaps I’ve missed a few. Even if you break apart the Orthodox Churches into separate Patriarchates (Bishops), that doesn’t reduce the BIG number of 33,820 by very much, does it? Some would say, “well that number is completely inflated” based upon Barrett’s fuzzy definition of “denomination.” On the contrary, I would say that it is a MUCH LARGER NUMBER of denominations using Webster’s definition of “denomination.”
Even within the Catholic Church, the most diverse forms of Catholicism, the Latin and Eastern Rite, share the same government, the same “religious organization uniting local congregations in a single legal and administrative body.” In other words, Canon Law for the Eastern Rite and Canon Law for the Latin Rite come from the same single government, chaired by the same Vicar.
Add to this the number of catholic and orthodox denominations, and it is easy to see why one ought to avoid ALL denominations.
Read the Bible, avoid man-made organizations!
“the same religious organization uniting local congregations in a single legal and administrative body.
But that’s not the case with the Roman Catholic Church. The local congregations are united in a single diocese, but each church is a legal entity united in the diocese, another legal entity. How many diocese are there in America? Each diocese is not legally responsible for another diocese unless it does something within the other diocese or voluntarily elects to be bound legally. Otherwise, no diocese could file for bankruptcy protection as long as other diocese have assets to answer for the debts.
The Roman Catholic Church wants to say it is hierarchical only in a spiritual sense but legally, only as far as the local diocese to preserve its assets from the type of liability created in the local diocese.
**So, what does Barrett mean when he states there are 242 Roman Catholic denominations? It seems Barrett is counting each country as its own denomination. So, for Barrett, the Roman Catholic Church of the USA is a different denomination than the Roman Catholic Church of Canada. I dont know how he got 242 denominations from 238 countries listed, however. Some numbers from Barretts...**
Sounds like this person needs to brush up on his math skills. LOL!
The bigger the number, the more dramatic the conclusion.
I think we may have been through this before. Mary was the Ark of the New Covenant. She carried Jesus Christ, true God and true man, within her. It is a big deal.
And I can’t quite fathom why you wouldn’t say the same. Because I bet you believe that every birth is a big deal. (Let alone, the birth of Jesus Christ!!!!!!!!)
Just one thing. The logic is that “faith” is sometimes enhanced by reliance on physical objects. This obviously the is the basis of most superstittion, including things like lucky charms, or crystals aroubnd the neck. Of course is there is danger of idolatry when one associated the object with spiritual powers,but the spiritual danger is the identity of the spirit that is worshipped. The puritanical notion of eliminating all sacramentals works against the fundamental fact that we are composites of body and souls, and that we psychologically need tangible objects to give us confidence and we need to express our faith physically and that the faith is in the One God, not any false god.
Well, someone MADE that Bible you read. You would abolish printers and book binders?
Huh huh huh huh huh
You said "Count Floyd"
So only Christ can work miracles? Peter couldn’t. Hmmmm...
>> You guys are and always will be the Roman Catholic Church because the bishop of ROME lives in ROME.<<
Uh, see that’s exactly it. The Bishop of Rome lives in exile from the City of Man, Rome. Although Martin Luther did not know this (making the slandrous nature of his claims obvious), the Vatican is on the OTHER side of the river from Rome, built on the site where the Romans dumped Peter’s body.
I have no problem with “Roman Catholic,” to distinguish from “Orthodox Catholic” but “Romanism” is plain and simply intended to be incindiary, and developed historically as an attempt to link the Catholic Church with the Whore Babylon. The use of the term pretty much signals to the rest of the world that the author is a polemic crackpot. The effect is like blogging in all caps or spelling America with a “k.”
You know, up until this year I kept hearing it was 30,000, then all of a sudden we zoomed up to 40,000, then dropped back down to 30,000 - in fact, we even had multiple reports claiming that number just in the last month - and now you say it's gone up to 33,000? BWA HAHAHAHA
Get your stories straight, Catholics. At one point this year, you were saying we had over a million....
I’m calling you on this one. I’d like to see a link to a post where a Catholic criticized you for referring to his church as the Catholic Church.
Old... tired... wrong...
>> As Harnack and many other historians have noted, popes Zephyrinus and Callixtus I, who were Monarchian Modalist heretics were the first Roman bishops to apply Matthew 16:18 <<
The sources you people will quote sometimes to back your argument are amazing. You seem to be referring to Adolf von Harnack, a German who promoted the “social gospel,” the Protestant equivalent of liberation theology, and who asserted, among other claims, that the Gospel of John was spurious and denied the existence of miracles. He’s about as credible as the Queer Theory “historians” who claim that Jesus and John were homosexual lovers.
As a Asian Greek preaching in France long before the era of swift transportation or telecommunication, wouldn’t it be downright odd for Irenaeus to specify an Italian bishop?
The point Irenaeus was making amidst the heresy was that when you don’t know WHICH bishop to follow, follow the one in Rome.
Simple truth : Our lord Jesus was crucified on a THURSDAY, not friday, count on your fingers : THREE DAYS and THREE NIGHTS. Also, dec 25 is the roman god Jupiter’s “birthday”, Jesus was born in early january as the eastern orthodox believe. Many more truths to know, as the little book that tastes sweet in the mouth but bitter in the stomach.
Real nice statement, you bigot. Say, don't you have to go to some soldier's funeral and wave your "God hates fags" banners or something?
Discuss the issues all you want, but do NOT make it personal.
You got ‘em good.
There’s no way I can find that post, but it’s true. I was criticised for saying “catholic” instead of Roman Catholic. I’ve also been criticised for not capitalizing the first letters, something that I also don’t always do with methodist...my own denomination.
You’ll just have to trust my memory and my reputation.
“Youll just have to trust my memory and my reputation.”
I trust you, Padre! :)
“Hey, do I have to become a Catholic before I can see if those rice-paper pills will grow hair on my head? What a bummer.”
23And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
24And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
He was goofy - but he seemed sincere.
“... - but he seemed sincere.”
Well, on second thought...
What is the point of posting this kind of anti-Catholic screed? Whom will this persuade except those who already hate the Church? If the best argument you can make to support Protestantism is to attack some aspect of Catholic belief or practice, then your arguments in favor of Protestantism are weak, indeed. Moreover, the further Protestants distance themselves from the Church, the more practices and beliefs they disavow, the less content they have to their own religion, which just boils down to people believing and doing whatever they want. You will never persuade anyone to embrace your empty religion by tearing down the Catholic Church (the one true Church founded by Christ).
Actually, you were the one who said that.
Simple truth? Or just simple?
Well, as previously, and often, noted, a source that is anti Catholic is well received; that same source when used to justify Catholic teachings is spurned as anti- or extra-Biblical.
Methinks that the loudest louts are attempting to cover up their deepseated insecurity. It is also easier to attack a sound structure than to defend a nebulous wisp.
Who's to say these supposed natural healings are not really miracles that result from the prayers of the Church for the sick and afflicted?
Where do you find that to be the Catholic position?
What sort of nonsense is this? Why are you attempting to confuse the idea of legal entity with church hierarchy?
There is only one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church of Christ. There is only one creed, one doctrine and one belief. Everything else is man made. If you tell me the name of your church (the mainstream ones anyway), I could tell you the man who started it, and very often, why.
I remember “Ernest Angely and His Ministry of Faith” very well, even fondly. It was always good for its late night entertainment value.
Ernest was good, but I’ll bet he wishes he’d have thought up this Tic Tac idea. Of course he didn’t have the resources to take the idea global. This underlines how difficult it is for “the little guy” to compete with the experience and resources of a multi-national company.
Wrong, but thanks for playing anyway.
What a bunch of oversensitive Metrosexual crapola.
The Church uses the term Roman frequently and proudly in her documents, calling herself:
"The Holy Roman Church" (Council of Florence, throughout)
"The Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church" (Pope Innocent III's Profession of Faith, Proscribed for the Abjuration of the Waldensian Heresy)
"The Roman Church" (Letter Super Quibusdam to the Armenians)
"The Holy, Roman, Catholic and Apostolic Church ... the mother and teacher of all the Churches" (Tridentine Profession of Faith, Proscribed for Abjuration of the Protestant Heresy)
In response to an off the cuff rhetorical question:
Perhaps things are different at your church - one of the, what, million protestant sects?
Now this is excellent news - thank you for sharing this with us, AlaninSA! I had no idea that Protestantism held your interest to this degree! For the rest of you, it’s worth noting that in the last week of January 2007, we achieved a dramatic 33% growth rate as Protestant denominations jumped from 30,000 to 40,000 denominations. And now, without even having finished the first quarter of 2007, we’re told (thanks, Alan!) that our numbers have literally exploded into the millions, growing by an astronomical 2500%!
Yes, you read that right - the number of Protestant sects grew by twenty-five thousand percent, in just a scant five week period! And that growth rate is even larger - over thirty-three thousand percent - if you factor in that now-tiny-looking jump we enjoyed last January.
Congratulations, one and all! Your hard work has paid off!
280 posted on 03/10/2007 4:19:32 PM CST by Alex Murphy
You were the one who seized on this and expanded on it. And the emphasis of this idea is intended to be on the fact that Protestant denominations e.g. opposed doctrines are expanding. Further evidence that Protestant claims that the Holy Spirit inspires each individual to opposing beliefs is wrong.
If the Holy Spirit is truly inspirational of the Word of God, it cannot give the millions of Protestant individuals a different belief system. It does not follow. It is irrational to believe this.
If you are going to mention the Irish...
Ya gotta ping me!
You must be put out about something.
It might be the better thing to just give the facts and leave the metrosexual stuff of it.
I prefer the old school tag “Nancy-boy” to metrosexual. It’s far more accurate and descriptive a term.
“What sort of nonsense is this? Why are you attempting to confuse the idea of legal entity with church hierarchy?”
If you read the defitition the FS used it talks about “legal and administrative body”.