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To: Dr. Eckleburg
You guys bow down before her. That's not "misrepresentation;" that's evidence.

But all "evidence" must be rightly interpreted. (Since you don't believe in interpretation, you frequently misinterpret things.) And bowing does not necessarily imply worship. It can also be a sign of honor or respect. For example, after the deacon incenses the congregation, he bows toward the congregation. In doing so, he is not worshipping the congregation. And the same is true when we bow or kneel before an icon or image of a saint to pray.


331 posted on 05/18/2007 12:03:25 PM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: adiaireton8; Dr. Eckleburg
But all "evidence" must be rightly interpreted. (Since you don't believe in interpretation, you frequently misinterpret things.)

Such a defense is a non sequiter in itself. The "right interpretation" has to be interpreted itself, namely by each party who inquires of it after the fact. This is necessary, and should be expected due to each/any/all language/time/location/culture/education differences and displacements that fall between the original interpretation and the subsequent audience.

It's simply not factual, nor logical, to claim that personal interpretations aren't needed (or even that they don't occur) following a "right interpretation", nor to claim that no personal misinterpretation can occur during the transmission of a previous "right interpretation".

332 posted on 05/18/2007 12:43:05 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (FR Member Alex Murphy: Declared Anathema By The Council Of Trent)
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To: adiaireton8
And the same is true when we bow or kneel before an icon or image of a saint to pray.

Concerning the blasphemous practice of praying to Mary, angels or the spirits of saints who have departed earthly existence, listen to these church fathers.

In writing against a certain Celsus who was introducing the practice of praying to departed spirits, Origen sound condemns the practice;

But, conformably to our hypothesis, let this knowledge of them, which is something wonderful and mysterious, be obtained. Then this knowledge, making known to us their nature, and the offices to which they are severally appointed, WILL NOT PERMIT US to pray with confidence TO ANY OTHER THAN TO THE SUPREME GOD, who is sufficient for all things, and that through our Saviour the Son of God, who is the Word, and Wisdom, and Truth, and everything else which the writings of God's prophets and the apostles of Jesus entitle Him....And being persuaded that the sun himself, and moon, and stars pray to the Supreme God through His only-begotten Son, we judge it improper to pray to those beings who themselves offer up prayers to God, seeing even they themselves would prefer that we should send up our requests to the God to whom they pray, rather than send them downwards to themselves, or apportion our power of prayer between God and them....Celsus forgets that he is addressing Christians, who PRAY TO GOD ALONE through Jesus"---Against Celsus, 5:4-5, 5:11, 8:37

Origen comments that Christians pray only to God:
"For every prayer, and supplication, and intercession, and thanksgiving, is to be sent up to the Supreme God through the High Priest, who is above all the angels, the living Word and God. And to the Word Himself shall we also pray and make intercessions, and offer thanksgivings and supplications to Him, if we have the capacity of distinguishing between the proper use and abuse of prayer. For to invoke angels without having obtained a knowledge of their nature greater than is possessed by men, would be contrary to reason."

In his condemnation of praying to angels, Origen makes it emphatic that to God and God ONLY do Christians pray.

Yet another Church Father, Irenaeus wrote:
"Nor does she [the church] perform anything by means of angelic invocations, or by incantations, or by any other wicked curious art; but, DIRECTING HER PRAYERS TO THE LORD, who made all things, in a pure, sincere, and straightforward spirit, and calling upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, she has been accustomed to work miracles for the advantage of mankind, and not to lead them into error....The altar, then, is in heaven (for towards that place are our prayers and oblations directed)"----Against Heresies, 2:32:5, 4:18:6

Notice in what direction and to whom Ireneaus states our prayers are to be directed: 'TO THE LORD".

Notice that Irenaeus also condemns invoking angels, as is also practiced by Roman Catholics, saying, "Nor does she [the church] perform anything by means of angelic invocations"

Now lets consider Cyprian. Cyprian wrote a treatise on The Lord's Prayer, a treatise that addresses prayer in general, even though it focuses on that one prayer in the gospels. He describes prayer as something done "in God's sight", something directed to God, not to people:

"Let us consider that we are standing in God's sight. We must please the divine eyes both with the habit of body and with the measure of voice. For as it is characteristic of a shameless man to be noisy with his cries, so, on the other hand, it is fitting to the modest man to pray with moderated petitions."---On the Lord's Prayer, 4

Later in the treatise, he explains that The Lord's Prayer addresses "all our prayer", which implies that we're to pray only to God, since The Lord's Prayer is addressed only to God:

"What wonder is it, beloved brethren, if such is the prayer which God taught, seeing that He condensed in His teaching all our prayer in one saving sentence? This had already been before foretold by Isaiah the prophet, when, being filled with the Holy Spirit, he spoke of the majesty and loving-kindness of God, 'consummating and shortening His word,' He says, 'in righteousness, because a shortened word will the Lord make in the whole earth.'"---On the Lord's Prayer, 28)

In other words, Cyprian considers The Lord's Prayer to be an outline for all prayer, which necessarily excludes praying to anybody but God.

But later, Cyprian tells us that we pray to "NOTHING BUT THE LORD", "TO GOD ALONE":

"Moreover, when we stand praying, beloved brethren, we ought to be watchful and earnest with our whole heart, intent on our prayers. Let all carnal and worldly thoughts pass away, nor let the soul at that time think on anything but the object only of its prayer. For this reason also the priest, by way of preface before his prayer, prepares the minds of the brethren by saying, 'Lift up your hearts,' that so upon the people's response, 'We lift them up unto the Lord,' he may be reminded that he himself ought to think of nothing but the Lord. Let the breast be closed against the adversary, and be open to TO GOD ALONE"---On the Lord's Prayer, 31

Throughout the treatise, Cyprian instructs the reader how to pray to God, and he repeatedly says that he's addressing all of our prayers in this treatise, yet he says nothing of praying to Mary, praying to Joseph, praying to angels, or praying to anybody else other than God. Rather, he describes prayer as an act of worship and reverence to God, something addressed to God alone. An angel might bring our prayers to God, as we see in the book of Revelation, for example, but the prayer is to be addressed only to God. That's the Protestant view of prayer, it's the Biblical view, and it's the view of the earliest church fathers.

340 posted on 05/18/2007 1:21:19 PM PDT by Risky-Riskerdo
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