Posted on 05/19/2007 3:25:34 AM PDT by Gamecock
In usual conversations, religion is rarely being talked about. To a lot of people, talking about one's personal faith and beliefs is inappropriately perplexing and bizarre. It is as strange as having three holes in your nostrils and your companions persistently asks how in the world did you had that or why. On several cases, I've had discussions on religion, not personal faith, to people of different denominations besides Roman Catholic which almost always ends up to arguments and individual tirades. I was raised a Catholic, but I diverted my faith to a more personal level by accepting the Lord Jesus as my Personal Savior back in high school. It was not a choice to avert from a particular religion; I was simply redirecting my convictions unequivocally to Him, without false pretensions and unnecessary charades.
Recently, I had been drawn to watch Joel Osteen on television. I am aware that televangelical ministries are around for a long time now, but it was not after I caught him while channel surfing that I became curious why he is listed as America 's one of the most influential people. As a pastor, I heard he is big, but I never realized how big he was until I actually sat down and watch him at an hour's length preaching before a huge congregation, gathered in what seemed like a colossal fish tank. The fish tank nonetheless was a recently purchased Compaq Center, formerly home to the NBA's Houston Rockets which costs over 90 million dollars in renovation and is now being used as their church in Lakewood Texas. With more than 30,000 members across the US, undeniably, he truly is the latest "star" in the Christian kingdom. And it's not surprising. He smiles while he preaches, and it is quite safe to say he is charming. Somewhat Richard Gere charming. For a pastor, having a rock or Hollywood status in the world of religion is phenomenal. I know for a fact that to become a priest, a pastor or a minister, it is either your calling or an uncanny gift. I am particularly amazed by his gift of words, of his eloquence and spontaneity as he leads a double life as an author of self-help books and a preacher.
But what really is he all about? He talks about God for sure, salvation, inspirational and positive messages about improving your life, saving your soul, etc. He is endearing and yes, I give him credit for opening doors to people from different walks of life in the absence of judgment and condemnation. But this people also pay ten dollars to get a seat whenever he preaches across states or countries. It is not surprising then that his church gets more than 55 million in revenue each year. What is ten dollars if you can save a seat in heaven, right? What a cheap bargain. One thing I noticed though that he often associates virtues with materialism. Like for instance, in the middle of his preaching, he said he just bought a Mercedes which model and style is not yet out even for display, when one day, his son swiped it with a dirty rug, and of course, he forgives him. It is all about forgiveness after all. He too, talks about taking pleasure in what he says is a result of having God's favor. He testified about how he had been pulled over a couple of times for speeding but when the officer saw his last name was Osteen, no ticket was issued. He said the same can happen for every Christian who wakes up declaring they have God's favor. By following this method Osteen says he has been able to get the best parking spot in a crowded parking lot, a first class seat on a crowded airplane with no boarding pass, and priority seating at restaurants. I don't know, I just feel there is something peculiar in his theologies.
Religion is lately being associated with politics, showbiz, and prosperity. When it should be the only institution dedicated to sanctify our broken spirit and soul through the divine intervention of the One we believe that reigns supreme. People may look up to different gods, but the goal is the same. We want to follow the one we worship. But shouldn't religion be practiced instead of being heard? And should religion be an extravagance or an expectation of good things? From what I know, it is only an order, a sacred and ultimate order which relates man and his existence.
There shouldn't be a definition of your faith. We all thread in this earth swathe with the unknown and uncertainties. What we believe should define our own actions. Who our devotion is for should be an extension of what we do to our brethren. And why we commit to the God we know should reflect our dedication to live a life that is fruitful.
Article: “One thing I noticed though that he often associates virtues with materialism.... He too, talks about taking pleasure in what he says is a result of having God’s favor.”
Contrast this with Paul in his letter to the Romans:
Rom 8:16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
Rom 8:17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.
Or to the Phillippians:
Php 1:29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,
Php 1:30 engaged in the same conflict that you saw I had and now hear that I still have.
Today religion is a handle used to generate "image." Thats why we se it bandidied about. It has nothing to do with spiritual qualities, but has to do with appearance, and invoking "Trust." This is a very dangerous thng to have happening, asking for trust based on imagry. It allows politicians to avoid issues.
It's much tha same as the evangelism of Nazis in 1938, removing the rational thinking process so neessary to American successful politics.Politicians are supported or defamed in equal measure, not for ideas, but for whether they are "with the Lord" or not.
How should I know the spiritual path of some one I have never met, but who is on TV, crating a religious image, trying to get my trust, on the basis of an alleged spiritual accomplishment? Its actually quite sickening. I prefer the modest approach of our forefathers, who encouraged rational, informed thinking as the basis for a succesful body politic. Othgerwise we stoop to become like the very Islamofascists we now fight, screaming illogical fanatics, who are indeed "religious." Why would we posit a form of government that induces a similar character?
Ones religion as you say is a personal spiritual path. It should be a source of individual strength and inspiration for our politicians, but if bandied about in image creation, religion of that nature has and should make us deeply suspicious.
Is this the same guy that wrote 'All your base are belong to us'?
LOL! No, “all your base” is much more intelligible.
bookmark
I think that sums things up beautifully; I was just thinking I needed a new tagline.
(Good thing it's the weekend, because I might need a Guinness already!)
Of course which is why it is sage advice NOT to talk about religion with others. I also pretty much avoid the topic of politics in public for the same reason. You almost always end up in arguements that go nowhere.
Make sure you turn the right direction or you’ll strip your threads.
hardihar, good comment.
Because, of course, we Catholics don't have any personal connection with Jesus at all... Sheesh, this person is living on a different planet from the Catholic Church of which I have been a member since my conversion and baptism.
Well confession is good for the soul.
We also cavort the landscape in blue oyster's cult!
Perhaps you have heard of the quaint Roman Catholic "tradition" that is carried out in the Philippines where folks volunteer to be crucified? That is the Catholicism that the writer grew up in, not your sophisticated American flavor.
Only a FReeper Catholic would call foul in a hit piece on American Evangelicalism....
A great post. People need to ask themselves what was learned after listening to Osteen. He makes you feel good but there is no substance at all to his teaching. Folks may feel very religious after attending his “church” but I wonder what they learned about God? What did they learn to prepare them for meeting Father face to face? He doesn’t feed his flock, he pets them only and they don’t realize it.
Here is my measuring stick: Did Jesus have to die to make the message I am hearing from any given pulpit true?
If the answer is no, I am hearing advice, or even worse, false teaching, rather than good news.
Excellent point. We don’t want any accidental stripping when we’re supposed to be swathed.
Oh, good thought!
What with the stripping and cavorting, this is starting to sound like a very interesting religion.
“He testified about how he had been pulled over a couple of times for speeding but when the officer saw his last name was Osteen, no ticket was issued. He said the same can happen for every Christian who wakes up declaring they have God’s favor. By following this method Osteen says he has been able to get the best parking spot in a crowded parking lot, a first class seat on a crowded airplane with no boarding pass, and priority seating at restaurants.”
What an insult to the martyrs of yesterday, today and tommorow. People have been shunned, mocked, jailed, tormented, tortured, killed by beast, fire, sword, gun, rope and stone for declaring Christ and His gospel. Their blood cries out to the heavens and the very angels themselves weep over this injustice. Christ gives them first place with Him in heaven and listens to their pleas for their sisters and brothers on earth. How dare Osteen reduce belief in Christ to being given a good parking place. God is not a cosmic vending machine. He is Lord.
That picture just creeps me out....
Should have said,
From the original article;
Well there's his problem.
And the Holy spirit descended like so many paper doves!
8-0
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I must admit, I am intrigued as well.
Oh yes it was...
Of course, if it's false religion, then it will cause nothing but trouble.
Well, in some cases it's true -- church is just where you put in your time. Happens in non-Catholic churches too however so you have a point.
Do they REALLY hurt those people???
Then again, Martin Luther's order before he 'rebelled' against the Pope, promoted self-flagellation as well. It didn't assuage his conscience a bit.
From the Library of Congress : Religion Exhibit.
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel04.html
Congress appointed chaplains for itself and the armed forces, sponsored the publication of a Bible, imposed Christian morality on the armed forces, and granted public lands to promote Christianity among the Indians. National days of thanksgiving and of "humiliation, fasting, and prayer" were proclaimed by Congress at least twice a year throughout the war. Congress was guided by "covenant theology," a Reformation doctrine especially dear to New England Puritans, which held that God bound himself in an agreement with a nation and its people. This agreement stipulated that they "should be prosperous or afflicted, according as their general Obedience or Disobedience thereto appears." Wars and revolutions were, accordingly, considered afflictions, as divine punishments for sin, from which a nation could rescue itself by repentance and reformation.
The first national government of the United States, was convinced that the "public prosperity" of a society depended on the vitality of its religion. Nothing less than a "spirit of universal reformation among all ranks and degrees of our citizens," Congress declared to the American people, would "make us a holy, that so we may be a happy people."
I reckon so, they drive nails into their extremities...
As for religion in politics and elsewhere...too many people with varying motives mix up (combine) morality and religion. Morality is hopefully the fruit of religion, but it is not the religion itself. To join them as one is to miss the genius of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. Wanting the law to recognize the right to life of unborn babies is not mixing religion and politics. Those who think babies are property and not separate humans like to blur the debate by claiming pro-lifers are imposing their religion on others. It is just a false argument. Same for other social issues. Just because religious people have a higher respect for life does not mean that they are imposing their religion when they seek to make government recognize the humanity of a child. To impose my religion would mean I force you to be baptized in the name of Jesus, to attend religious services and things like that.
Well.... when i was a Catholic I didn't. None of the kids in Catholic school did. I had to go "fundie" to be taught how to live a Christian life.
I understand that my experience is not universal, but it is common. Now I'm contemplating recrossing the Tiber (thanks to James Akin et al, and also in different way thanks to the likes of Osteen) but I'm deathly afraid I might leave something precious behind. My yet unanswered question is, why couldn't Catholicism spark a "personal" faith in myself or legions like me? Why'd we have to leave the Church to find God? Why am I now forced to choose between Apostolic scripture, and Apostolic sacrament -- why can't it be "both/and"?
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I'm not sure there's one answer to that question. For each of us, it may be completely different.
In my experience, it is both.
Catholic faith is a collective faith, like socialism. Protestant faith is an individual faith. It is a one on one relationship with the Lord, whereas Catholic faith appears to be a faith that is contingent upon the cooperation of others, i.e., the priesthood.
Protestants believe that the Priesthood is Christ and Christ alone. Our faith is not handed down from other men, it is directly revealed from heaven through the Holy Spirit acting directly upon our souls and not through the medium of some intercessory.
This is why Protestant countries have consistently fostered individual liberty and Catholic Countries have consistently fostered socialism and collectivism.
America could never have been possible unless the individual liberty and responsibility emphasized in Protestantism had found its way to our shores.
Thank God it did.
So who gets the best parking spots at a Promise Keepers rally? There's one to keep the Holy Spirit (and part time parking valet) busy.
You make it sound like individualism is the virgin birth and the body politic a devil incarnate.
You make it sound as if you have no legitimate response to my point.
I’m a Weight Watchers member. Our “best” parking space is as far from the door as possible :-).
I hesitate to comment on Mr. Osteen’s statements discussed by hearsay from someone for whom English is clearly not his first language. However, if this is even close to accurate, then I’m stuned.
I think a lot of cradle Catholics, although not all, do take their religion for granted unfortunately. The sacraments (especially Reconciliation and the Eucharist) and prayer do bring us objectively closer to Christ, but not all have the proper disposition to take advantage of that. In some respects, the Catholic converts from Protestantism do bring the best of both worlds, with a solid grounding in Scripture and a strong evangelizing temperament that can complement rather than compete with the sacraments, formal prayers and magisterial teaching authority of the successors of the apostles.
Very good.
As a convert, I certainly agree with you.
I was thinking more Lyle Lovett charming. ;)
While I don't strictly agree that you have to make that choice, I understand (I think) the feeling. And I think part of it comes from the real damage that schism has done. I think schism is a dreadful thing. I used to joke when I was still Episcopalian and a friend was RC, "When we left, we took beauty with us." And while that's not rigorously accurate, I do think every time a group splits from the Church, something is lost. We have lost some great things in the East West Split, and things which should be simple and clear are complicated and obscure because we aren't working together.
I am allowed to mention P-Marlowe without pinging him, so I will say that he is right that representative republics with strong senses of individual rights have NOT grown in Catholic cultures, and at some point it would be good to see if there is a connection and what that connection might be.
But the other side to this issue is to recall that while being in the Church is an unmerited gift, it's also true that we imports may have some gifts for the church. I know that within about 6 months of my conversion my pastor had me overseeing an adult bible class, and that in our small country parish there was no regular praying of the Rosary until I started a group after the 9-11.
In other words, while in the most important sense nothing necessary is missing, still maybe one of the things that is missing, if one speaks "after the flesh", is you.
Well, I was raised Catholic, and I never ever doubted the personal sacrifice that Jesus made for myself and for every one else in the universe for the forgiveness of my sins.
I can actually remember when I fully comprehended the magnitude if it. In my childish mind of 7 and 1/2 years, I was walking on the sidewalk just before my First Communion and I saw a bunch of ants. I remember thinking in wonder what it would be like if I as a human would deem it necessary to allow myself to be sacrificed to save these tiny creatures. Could I love them enough? The metaphor was in my mind as I had just come from catechism and had been taught about the crucifixion, the resurrection, and God’s mercy and forgiveness. I then wondered about how the Almighty God could love us so much that he would send his Son to die for us, such tiny creatures.
Now this may seem simplistic to you, but I was a small child. I have always wondered how people can be brought up Catholic and not have a true clue about our wonderful, saving God. Maybe I was just more fortunate. I did have truly great parents, a good pastor, plus I was educated prior to Vatican II (which I suspect may be the most important fact here).
It's not a good way to think.
Because the church has let the world in.
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