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From Calvinist to Catholic
Holy Spirit Interactive ^ | Rodney Beason

Posted on 05/26/2007 4:32:30 PM PDT by Titanites

I am a convert to the Catholic Faith from Calvinism. I loved Calvinism and owned a library full of Calvin, Luther, Warfield, Hodge, Murray, Owen, Machen, etc. as well as helped plant a local Orthodox Presbyterian Church. I knew Reformation Theology and how much hatred it generates for the Catholic Church. As a Calvinist, I could boast with the best of them. I even persecuted the Catholic Church and went after every one of them I found, beating them back with Scripture, upon Scripture, upon quotes of Luther, Calvin, etc. I found great pleasure in debating Catholics.

My one flaw was learning what the Early Church Fathers believed. A Catholic who had not fared well in a debate with me, mentioned I should read the Early Church Fathers to see just how Catholic they were. I honestly thought I would just gain more "ammo" to use in my battles.

I found Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp with my first visit to the University Library. I poured over them for months until finally I pounded the books on the table with my fists, tossed them from the fourth to the third level of the library and wept. It seemed these great martyrs for the Faith were Catholic. It had taken about 8 months of going over Clement, Augustine, Athanasius, etc. to see the Catholic Church was the Early Church. I kept coming back to Ignatius and Polycarp as I could not get them out of my mind.

Over the next two years, I read more and more on the Catholic Faith and became less and less convinced the Reformed Faith was correct. It became clear to me; it was nothing more than a novelty, spewing forth doctrines that had never been believed before. Christ promised the Holy Spirit to His Church and stated the gates of hell would not prevail against it. I thought that was a lie and for 1500 years, the Church had been without truth and the gates of hell had prevailed. It is very humbling to come to the conclusion you have been horribly wrong, even to the point of not trusting the words of our precious Lord and Saviour. Yet, I still was not ready to become a Catholic.

Then one day when I was reading the Scripture I read Paul talking about how he was the most religious Pharisee, the most upright, and you know my heart was pierced and I actually laughed about how I could claim I had been one of the best Calvinists around, but then it hit me. Was that even something to boast about? So I looked up one of the most wonderful examples of boasting the Lord mentioned. Luke 18:9-14 (Please read the Scripture as this is my paraphrase)

'Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Calvinist and the other a sinner. The Calvinist (that would be I) stood and was praying thus to himself, God, I thank thee that I am not like other people, sinners, Catholics, heretics, or even like this sinner beside me. I planted your church in this god-forsaken part of the country, I read the Scriptures and Calvin and Luther twice a week, and the rest of the week I read nothing but reformers and your Scriptures. But the sinner standing a little off to the side, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast saying, God, be merciful to me the sinner. I tell you this man went down to his house justified rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself shall be humbled but he who humbles himself shall be exalted."

You know who the sinner was? I turned next to Luke 5:8 because I was then looking for others who admitted they were sinners for I knew I was once the boaster but now I was the sinner. "But when Simon Peter saw that, he fell down at Jesus' feet saying, Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord." Peter then was able to go on and follow Jesus. Peter came home, this home became the Church, and he was the Rock it was built upon, and he was justified.

At that moment, it finally became clear I could not stay a Calvinist or stay in the OPC. I had plans to attend Westminster Seminary and those were discarded. I lost friends and was informed I must have never been a Christian in the first place.

As I became least, Christ became more. I decided the only place I could go was the home where the Apostle Peter went. I was accepted into the Catholic Church in Easter 2002. I have never been happier and I wish and pray this joy for all. I will never be the same after taking the Body and Blood of our Lord.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Ministry/Outreach; Theology
KEYWORDS: beason; calvinism; conversion; convert; flamebait; presbyterian; reformed; rodneybeason; truthnotflamebait
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1 posted on 05/26/2007 4:32:32 PM PDT by Titanites
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To: Titanites
life begins with Catholicism.

Every day.

2 posted on 05/26/2007 4:35:34 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand (Thank you St. Jude.)
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To: Titanites
Luke 18:9-14 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. "The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men -- extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 'I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.' "And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise [his] eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!' "I tell you, this man went down to his house justified [rather] than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
3 posted on 05/26/2007 4:38:45 PM PDT by Titanites
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To: Titanites

And there were songs of praise in Heaven as one that was lost was now found!! Alleluia! I fervently pray that those who are lost in the false world created by the “reformers” have their eyes opened and that they all come home to the One Hold Catholic and Apostolic Church.


4 posted on 05/26/2007 4:43:02 PM PDT by big'ol_freeper (It looks like one of those days when one nuke is just not enough-- Lt. Col. Mitchell, SG-1)
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To: Titanites

“Then one day when I was reading the Scripture I read Paul talking about how he was the most religious Pharisee, the most upright, and you know my heart was pierced and I actually laughed about how I could claim I had been one of the best Calvinists around, but then it hit me. Was that even something to boast about?”

Then, is being one of the best Catholics around something to boast about? Pot, meet kettle.


5 posted on 05/26/2007 4:44:24 PM PDT by fzx12345 (ACLU DELENDA EST)
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To: fzx12345

I didn’t see anyone boasting about their uber-Catholicism.


6 posted on 05/26/2007 4:46:47 PM PDT by cammie
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To: Titanites
I’m Mormon, not Catholic. I do have family who are Catholic, and in many other churches. Been in a few other churches, myself, at one time or another. I wonder, sometimes, if God really cares what church we join, so long as we seek to understand his will for us, and to do it. I did not find what I was seeking in any of the other churches I investigated, but I know many godly and good people, and not all of them are Mormons. Or Baptists. Or Catholics. Some of them are even Muslims and Buddhists. They may have a little more trouble getting to Heaven, but I’m not prepared to bet on it. We all depend on God’s infinite mercy, and his Son. God bless you, brother and FRiend.
7 posted on 05/26/2007 4:49:33 PM PDT by Old Student (We have a name for the people who think indiscriminate killing is fine. They're called "The Bad Guys)
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To: fzx12345
Then, is being one of the best Catholics around something to boast about?

No, and that is why you don't see that in the article.

8 posted on 05/26/2007 4:50:01 PM PDT by Titanites
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To: big'ol_freeper

Slowly, but surely, they are coming Home.


9 posted on 05/26/2007 4:51:28 PM PDT by Titanites
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Comment #10 Removed by Moderator

To: Salvation; NYer

Ping


11 posted on 05/26/2007 4:53:22 PM PDT by Titanites
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To: Titanites

Another unregenerate man looking for God.

I guess he got tired of God not looking for him.


12 posted on 05/26/2007 4:53:23 PM PDT by ears_to_hear
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To: ears_to_hear
Another unregenerate man looking for God.

When did you gain the power and authority to read this man's heart and judge his soul?

13 posted on 05/26/2007 4:56:44 PM PDT by Titanites
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To: fzx12345
Then, is being one of the best Catholics around something to boast about? Pot, meet kettle.

I didn't read that particu;ar boast anywhere in the article.

14 posted on 05/26/2007 5:06:08 PM PDT by pgkdan (Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions - G.K. Chesterton)
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To: Titanites
When did you gain the power and authority to read this man's heart and judge his soul?

In scripture

15 posted on 05/26/2007 5:06:53 PM PDT by ears_to_hear
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To: Titanites

Nowhere. No one has that omniscience or authority.


16 posted on 05/26/2007 5:07:43 PM PDT by Running On Empty
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To: Titanites

More rejoicing in heaven for this man than for Mother Teresa!!


17 posted on 05/26/2007 5:09:38 PM PDT by Suzy Quzy (Hillary '08...Her Phoniness is Genuine!!!)
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To: ears_to_hear
In scripture

You poor misdirected person. What pride you have in your righteousness.

18 posted on 05/26/2007 5:19:01 PM PDT by SampleMan (Islamic tolerance is practiced by killing you last.)
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To: fzx12345; drstevej; Gamecock; Jean Chauvin; OrthodoxPresbyterian; CCWoody; Wrigley; jboot; ...

BY BROTHER TOPLADY:

Arminianism - The Road back to Rome
by Rev. Augustus Toplady

“My sheep, saith Christ, hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; and I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish. O, most worthy Scriptures! which ought to compel us to have a faithful remembrance, and to note the tenor thereof; which is, the sheep of Christ shall never perish.

“Doth Christ mean part of his elect, or all, think you? I do hold, and affirm, and also faithfully believe, that he meant all his elect, and not part, as some do full ungodly affirm. I confess and believe assuredly, that there shall never any of them perish: for I have good authority so to say; be- cause Christ is my author, and saith, if it were possible, the very elect should be deceived. Ergo, it is not possible that they can be so deceived, that they shall ever finally perish, or be damned: wherefore, whosoever doth affirm that there may be any (i.e. any of the elect) lost, doth affirm that Christ hath a torn body.”1

The above valuable letter of recantation is thus inscribed: “A Letter to the Congregation of Free-willers, by One that had been of that Persuasion, but come off, and now a Prisoner for Religion:” which superscription will hereafter, in its due place, supply us with a remark of more than slight importance.

John Wesley, A Friend of Rome?
To occupy the place of argument, it has been alleged that “Mr. Wesley is an old man;” and the Church of Rome is still older than he. Is that any reason why the enormities, either of the mother or the son, should pass unchastised?

It has also been suggested, that “Mr. Wesley is a very laborious man:” not more laborious, I presume, than a certain active being, who is said to go to and fro in the earth, and walk up and down in it:2 nor yet more laborious, I should imagine, than certain ancient Sectarians, concerning whom it was long ago said, “Woe unto you Scribes, hypocrites; for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte:”3 nor, by any means, so usefully laborious, as a certain diligent member of the community, respecting whose variety of occupations the public have lately received the following intelligence: “The truth of the following instance of industry may be depended on: a poor man with a large family, now cries milk, every morning, in Lothbury, and the neighbourhood of the Royal Exchange; at eleven, he wheels about a barrow of potatoes; at one, he cleans shoes at the Change; after dinner, cries milk again; in the evening, sells sprats; and at night, finishes the measure of his labour as a watchman.”4

The Quarrel is With the Wolf
Mr. Sellon, moreover, reminds me (p. 128.) that, “while the shepherds are quarrelling, the wolf gets into the sheep fold;” not impossible: but it so happens, that the present quarrel is not among “the shepherds,” but with the “wolf” himself; which “quarrel” is warranted by every maxim of pastoral meekness and fidelity.

I am further told, that, while I am “berating the Arminians, Rome and the devil laugh in their sleeves.” Admitting that Mr. Sellon might derive this anecdote from the fountain head, the parties themselves, yet, as neither they nor he are very conspicuous for veracity, I construe the intelligence by the rule of reverse, though authenticated by the deposition of their right trusty and well-beloved cousin and counsellor.

Once more: I am charged with “excessive superciliousness, and majesty of pride:” and why not charged with having seven heads and ten horns, and a tail as long as a bell-rope? After all, what has my pride, or my humility, to do with the argument in hand? Whether I am haughty, or meek, is of no more consequence either to that, or to the public, than whether I am tall or short: however, I am, at this very time, giving one proof, that my “majesty of pride” can stoop; that even to ventilate the impertinences of Mr. Sellon.

Arminianism at Home in Rome
But, however frivolous his cavils, the principles for which he contends are of the most pernicious nature and tendency. I must repeat, what already seems to have given him so much offence, that Arminianism “came from Rome, and leads thither again.” Julian, bishop of Eclana a contemporary and disciple of Pelagius, was one of those who endeavoured, with much art, to gild the doctrines of that heresiarch, in order to render them more sightly and palatable. The Pelagian system, thus varnished and paliated, soon began to acquire the softer name of Semipelagianism. Let us take a view of it, as drawn to our hands by the celebrated Mr. Bower, who himself, in the main, a professed Pelagian, and therefore less likely to present us with an unfavourable portrait of the system he generally approved. Among the principles of that sect, this learned writer enumerates the following:

“The notion of election and reprobation, independent on our merits or demerits, is maintaining a fatal necessity, is the bane of all virtue, and serves only to render good men remiss in working out their salvation, and to drive sinners to despair.

“The decrees of election and reprobation are posterior to, and in consequence of, our good or evil works, as foreseen by God from all eternity.”5

Is not this too the very language of modern Arminianism? Do not the partizans of that scheme argue on the same identical terms? Should it be said, “True, this proves that Arminianism is Pelagianism revived; but it does not prove, that the doctrines of Arminianism are originally Popish:” a moment’s cool attention will make it plain that they are. Let us again hear Mr. Bower, who, after the passage just quoted, immediately adds, “on these two last propositions, the Jesuits found their whole system of grace and free-will; agreeing therein with the Semipelagians, against the Jansenists and St. Augustine.”6 The Jesuits were moulded into a regular body, towards the middle of the sixteenth century: toward the close of the same century, Arminius began to infest the Protestant churches. It needs therefore no great penetration, to discern from what source he drew his poison. His journey to Rome (though Monsicur Bayle affects to make light of the inferences which were at that very time deduced from it) was not for nothing. If, however, any are disposed to believe, that Arminius imbibed his doctrines from the Socinians in Poland, with whom, it is certain, he was on terms of intimate friendship, I have no objection to splitting the difference: he might import some of his tenets from the Racovian brethren, and yet be indebted, for others, to the disciples of Loyola.

Papists and Predestination
Certain it is, that Arminius himself was sensible, how greatly the doctrine of predestination widens the distance between Protestantism and Popery. “There is no point of doctrines (says he) which the Papists, the Anabaptists, and the (new) Lutherans more fiercely oppose, nor by means of which they heap more discredit on the reformed churches, and bring the reformed system itself into more odium; for they (i.e. the Papists, & etc.) assert, that no fouler blasphemy against God can be thought or expressed, than is contained in the doctrine of predestination.”7 For which reason, he advises the reformed world to discard predestination from their creed, in order that they may live on more brotherly terms with the Papists, the Anabaptists, and such like.

The Arminian writers make no scruple to seize and retail each other’s arguments, as common property. Hence, Samuel Hoord copies from Van Harmin the self same observation which I have now cited. “Predestination (says Samuel) is an opinion odious to the Papists, opening their foul mouths, against our Church and religion:”8 consequently, our adopting the opposite doctrines of universal grace and freewill, would, by bringing us so many degrees nearer to the Papists, conduce to shut their mouths, and make them regard us, so far at least, as their own orthodox and dearly beloved brethren: whence it follows, that, as Arminianism came from Rome, so “it leads thither again.”

The Jesuits and Predestination
If the joint verdict of Arminius himself, and of his English proselyte Hoord, will not turn the scale, let us add the testimony of a professed Jesuit, by way of making up full weight. When archbishop Laud’s papers were exam- ined, a letter was found among them, thus endorsed with that prelate’s own hand: “March, 1628. A Jesuit’s Letter, sent to the Rector at Bruxels, about the ensuing Parliament.” The design of this letter was to give the Superior of the Jesuits, then resident at Brussels, an account of the posture of civil and ecclesiastical affairs in England; an extract from it I shall here subjoin: “Father Rector, let not the damp of astonishment seize upon your ardent and zealous soul, in apprehending the sodaine and unexpected calling of a Parliament. We have now many strings to our bow. We have planted that soveraigne drugge Arminianisme, which we hope will purge the Protestants from their heresie; and it flourisheth and beares fruit in due season. For the better prevention of the Puritanes, the Arminians have already locked up the Duke’s (of Buckingham) eares; and we have those of our owne religion, which stand continually at the Duke’s chamber, to see who goes in and out: we cannot be too circumspect and carefull in this regard. I am, at this time, transported with joy, to see how happily all instruments and means, as well great as lesser, co-operate unto our purposes. But, to return unto the maine fabricke:—OUR FOUNDATION IS ARMINIANISME. The Arminians and projectors, as it appeares in the premises, affect mutation. This we second and enforce by probable arguments.”9

The Sovereign Drug Arminianism
The “Sovereign drug, Arminianism,” which said the Jesuit, “we (i.e. we Papists) have planted” in England, did indeed bid fair “to purge our Protestant Church effectually. How merrily Popery and Arminianism, at that time, danced hand in hand, may be learned from Tindal: “The churches were adorned with paintings, images, altar-pieces, & etc. and, instead of communion tables, alters were set up, and bowings to them and the sacramental elements enjoined. The predestinarian doctrines were forbid, not only to be preached, but to be printed; and the Arminian sense of the Articles was encouraged and propagated.”10 The Jesuit, therefore, did not exult without cause. The “sovereign drug,” so lately “planted,” did indeed take deep root downward, and bring forth fruit upward, under the cherishing auspices of Charles and Laud. Heylyn, too, acknowledges, that the state of things was truly described by another Jesuit of that age, who wrote: “Protestantism waxeth weary of itself. The doctrine (by the Arminians, who then sat at the helm) is altered in many things, for which their progenitors forsook the Church of Rome: as limbus patrum; prayer for the dead, and possibility of keeping God’s com- mandments; and the accounting of Calvinism to be heresy at least, if not treason.”11

Arminianism From the Pit
The maintaining of these positions, by the Court divines, was an “alteration” indeed; which the abandoned Heylyn ascribes to “the ingenuity and moderation found in some professors of our religion.” If we sum up the evidence that has been given, we shall find its amount to be, that Arminianism came from the Church of Rome, and leads back again to the pit whence it was digged.

THERE IS NO WAY,A BELIEVER IN SOLI DEO GLORIA OR THE OTHER 4 SOLAS WOULD SWIM THE TIBER.

“My maternal papa was a devout and bible studying man who gave little credence to man;s religion,[we;ll get back here],The cultural aspect was just to live by man;s authority and not Gods {sola-scriptura}.”

I DO NOT DISRUPT THREADS,IT IS NOT A PROFITEABLE USE OF THE LORD’S TIME,HOWEVER THIS IS A OUTRIGHT LIE!

BEEN IN ROME,BORN THERE AND IF YOU CARE TO READ MY PROFILE,I BELIEVE CATHOLIC BELIEVERS AS WELL AS OTHER PROTESTANT BELIEVERS ARE SAVED.

MAN’S AUTHORITY MEAN’S NOTHING!

CHRISTIAN LOVE TO ALL THE BRETHREN!


19 posted on 05/26/2007 5:24:24 PM PDT by alpha-8-25-02 ("SAVED BY GRACE AND GRACE ALONE")
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To: Old Student

You mean, as a Mormon, what the many gods will for us, right?
Do they all will the same thing? Which one do you ask/pray to when you want to know their will?


20 posted on 05/26/2007 5:49:42 PM PDT by WriteOn (Truth)
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To: alpha-8-25-02

Catholics are not Arminians. We may sound like it sometimes, and we underplay predestination, because we see no conflict between the mystery: free will within predestination. But Catholicism accepts mystery, whereas the Reformed are not comfortable with that mystery. So they come up with with ways to try to eradicate and throw out free will. When you reject mystery and fall to one side or the other within apparent paradox, you become a heretic.

We don’t believe in double predestination, but we are not Arminians.


21 posted on 05/26/2007 5:54:54 PM PDT by WriteOn (Truth)
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To: Old Student

The crux of the issue is our relationship with God, and how it is established. There are really only two religions in the world, and they each reflect a means of establishing that relationship: the religion of human achievement and the religion of divine accomplishment. I have chosen the latter. How about you?


22 posted on 05/26/2007 6:02:02 PM PDT by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: ears_to_hear

Look in the mirror.

Here is the scripture for you

When he entered the house, his disciples asked him in private, “Why could we not drive it out?”
He said to them, “This kind can only come out through prayer.”
(Mark 9:28-29)


23 posted on 05/26/2007 6:03:12 PM PDT by stfassisi ("Above all gifts that Christ gives his beloved is that of overcoming self"St Francis Assisi)
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To: LiteKeeper

“The crux of the issue is our relationship with God, and how it is established. There are really only two religions in the world, and they each reflect a means of establishing that relationship: the religion of human achievement and the religion of divine accomplishment. I have chosen the latter. How about you?”

Let me just say that human achievement means little without God.


24 posted on 05/26/2007 6:48:29 PM PDT by Old Student (We have a name for the people who think indiscriminate killing is fine. They're called "The Bad Guys)
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To: Titanites
I kept coming back to Ignatius and Polycarp as I could not get them out of my mind.

That's funny. I'm reading these guys (what little we have of them) right now, and I'm not bowled over by their supposed resemblance to the modern Roman Catholic church.

25 posted on 05/26/2007 6:50:36 PM PDT by Lee N. Field
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To: Old Student
That is exactly the point...Eph 2:8
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast."

There is NOTHING we can do to be saved. We are totally dependent upon God. Good works, charity, church-attendance...nothing will get us saved.

26 posted on 05/26/2007 7:01:17 PM PDT by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: LiteKeeper

“There is NOTHING we can do to be saved. We are totally dependent upon God. Good works, charity, church-attendance...nothing will get us saved.”

Except depend on God’s Mercy and his Son’s sacrifice. I try to be worthy of that, and fail. Every freaking day.


27 posted on 05/26/2007 7:17:15 PM PDT by Old Student (We have a name for the people who think indiscriminate killing is fine. They're called "The Bad Guys)
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To: Titanites; Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; ...
I even persecuted the Catholic Church and went after every one of them I found, beating them back with Scripture, upon Scripture, upon quotes of Luther, Calvin, etc. I found great pleasure in debating Catholics.

How I led Catholics Out of the Church

28 posted on 05/26/2007 7:19:06 PM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: Old Student
Except depend on God’s Mercy and his Son’s sacrifice. I try to be worthy of that, and fail. Every freaking day.

There is Bad News and Good News...Bad News: none of us are worthy; Good News: Jesus is...and that is all we need!

29 posted on 05/26/2007 7:43:18 PM PDT by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: LiteKeeper
“Good News: Jesus is...and that is all we need!”

Amen! I’m depending on that, because nothing else I can do will help.

Just looked at your “about me” page. You’ve got your work cut out for you! Good luck, and God Bless. You’re going to need both! I’m a grad student at the local college in education, and being a Christian conservative is not easy even here, in relatively conservative Oklahoma. I can imagine it in Colorado Springs. I’ve got family on the also relatively conservative Western Slope. They are always griping about how liberal the Eastern Slope is, these days.

30 posted on 05/26/2007 7:52:58 PM PDT by Old Student (We have a name for the people who think indiscriminate killing is fine. They're called "The Bad Guys)
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To: Old Student
Actually, Colorado Springs is pretty cool. There are more than 110 national ministries HQ'd here. And there more 600 churches, several Christian colleges and high schools, and a very active home school effort...perhaps as many as 14,000 home schoolers. There are also five military installations here, and they tend to be very conservative.

In fairness, we also have the lunatic fringe left. New Age'rs, Wiccans, Secular Humanists, etc

Makes for a very interesting place to live...and I love it!

31 posted on 05/26/2007 8:09:48 PM PDT by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: Titanites
Christ promised the Holy Spirit to His Church and stated the gates of hell would not prevail against it. I thought that was a lie and for 1500 years, the Church had been without truth and the gates of hell had prevailed. It is very humbling to come to the conclusion you have been horribly wrong, even to the point of not trusting the words of our precious Lord and Saviour.

Except for the most immature, and uneducated person, I've never met a "Calvinist" who believed this. Calvin himself, and even the most hyper-Calvinist Puritans, studied and valued the Church Fathers, Augustine, Bernard Clairveax, Hillary of St. Vincent, etc., and never suggested Hell had prevailed before the 16th Century. Of course God worked in and through the only church organization allowed to exist before the Reformation.

Calvinism too emphasizes grace most of all...saying we are not saved by our cooperation with God's mercy, rather He does all the saving...from start to finish. If Rodney Beason was a Pharisee as an Orthodox Presbyterian, it was because he didn't know Calvin and Calvinism enough, which puts the highest priority in the Word of God, by grace alone, through faith alone by Christ alone.

For every evangelical who becomes Roman Catholic, I'd bet there are 10 Roman Catholics in evangelical churches...including the OPC.

32 posted on 05/26/2007 8:37:04 PM PDT by AnalogReigns
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To: AnalogReigns

You wrote: “For every evangelical who becomes Roman Catholic, I’d bet there are 10 Roman Catholics in evangelical churches...including the OPC.”

I think you’re right. The real difference, however, is not the number. It’s the quality. The former Catholics you have left without ever learning their faith. I have seen this first hand, and read about it many times as well. The former Protestants, on the other hand, were much more likely to know their former faith, and much more likely to suffer loss (jobs, friendships, strained family relationships, etc.) when they converted.


33 posted on 05/26/2007 9:23:34 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: Titanites

Our Lord lived here on earth 2000 years ago so how could any group that did not come about til centuries later be his church? So that lets out the “reformers”, the Mormons, the JWs etc..

It’s simply a matter of history. The Catholic Church built upon St Peter the Rock was here first!

So many put the cart before the horse! Instead of looking to see (through their private interpretation) what the Bible says they should look first to the Church who gave the Bible!

Christ did not give a book to be the ultimate authority He gave us a Church!


34 posted on 05/26/2007 9:38:15 PM PDT by Macoraba
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To: Titanites

**I even persecuted the Catholic Church and went after every one of them I found, beating them back with Scripture, upon Scripture, upon quotes of Luther, Calvin, etc. I found great pleasure in debating Catholics. **

And unless people abandon this practice and repent of the sins of rejecting Christ and leading others away from him, and promise to cease in the practice of bashing his word and sacrament in the Catholic church; they will find themselves facing God at the moment they die and discover they are still headed the wrong way — to ?????


35 posted on 05/26/2007 11:14:16 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Titanites
Seems like more and more people are converting to the Catholic Church!! Yes!!

From Calvinist to Catholic

A Convert's Pilgrimage [Christopher Cuddy]

From Pastor to Parishioner: My Love for Christ Led Me Home (to the Catholic Church) [Drake McCalister]

Lutheran professor of philosophy prepares to enter Catholic Church

Patty Bonds (former Baptist and sister of Dr. James White) to appear on The Journey Home - May 7

Pastor and Flock Become Catholics

The journey back - Dr. Beckwith explains his reasons for returning to the Catholic Church

Famous Homosexual Italian Author Returned to the Church Before Dying of AIDS

Dr. Francis Beckwith Returns To Full Communion With The Church

Catholic Converts - Stephen K. Ray (former Evangelical)

Catholic Converts - Malcolm Muggeridge

Catholic Converts - Richard John Neuhaus

Catholic Converts - Avery Cardinal Dulles

Catholic Converts - Israel (Eugenio) Zolli - Chief Rabbi of Rome

Catholic Converts - Robert H. Bork , American Jurist (Catholic Caucus)

Catholic Converts - Marcus Grodi

Why Converts Choose Catholicism

The Scott Hahn Conversion Story

36 posted on 05/26/2007 11:16:04 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: ears_to_hear

“When did you gain the power and authority to read this man’s heart and judge his soul?

In scripture.”

Ouch. The most degenerate person in the world is judged by the laws of the world and by God’s words for our ability to discern what is right and what is wrong.

The reading of another’s soul and heart is God and God’s alone.

Do you know the purpose this person was placed upon the earth? What his mission is? What stumbling blocks The Almighty Creator may have placed before him and in him before the man was in his mother’s womb?

As I said, we can judge and we can use the law and God’s words, but never never never judge another’s heart and judge his soul.

Peace to you.


37 posted on 05/27/2007 7:11:16 AM PDT by OpusatFR
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To: Lee N. Field
What about the fact that, at the start of the second century, Ignatius takes for granted a church which is hierarchical and sacramental with bishops, priests, and deacons and at least some authority vested in the church at Rome? Couple this with the authentic letter of Clement from about 80 AD and it’s difficult to believe that the Catholic/Orthodox Church isn't exactly what the Apostles intended to leave. And if they didn't understand Jesus, how can we expect to?
38 posted on 05/27/2007 8:59:24 AM PDT by fdcc
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To: Titanites; Gamecock; Dr. Eckleburg; ears_to_hear; HarleyD
Christ promised the Holy Spirit to His Church and stated the gates of hell would not prevail against it.

I'm amazed at how often this verse is misapplied. It so often seems to be interpreted as saying that hell will be attacking the church but the church will be able to survive it. In fact, it is saying that the church will be advancing against hell and the gates of hell will not prevent them from doing so. The Body of Christ...all believers bound together by their faith in the risen Lord...continues to advance as His Kingdom expands daily.

I thought that was a lie and for 1500 years, the Church had been without truth and the gates of hell had prevailed.

As a Calvinist, I have never believed that the church had been without the truth until the time of the Reformation. Rather, just as God at times had to purify His covenant people by fire, so His Church had to endure the Reformation in order to cleanse itself of some of the false teachings. And just as God's covenant people of Israel had split during its history and then eventually exploded beyond the boundaries of a single nation, so the Church has had the same happen.

Any Reformed Protestant who believes there was no true church until the 16th century didn't pay much attention to the words of the Reformers and is likely letting their opposition to the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church lead them to throw the baby out with the bath water.

39 posted on 05/27/2007 9:59:54 AM PDT by Frumanchu (Jerry Falwell: Now a Calvinist in Glory)
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To: OpusatFR

God says the heart of men is deceitful, so that is not the measure the measure is Gods word.

God tells us to judge correctly because we will be held to that standard, but no where does He tell us not to judge. In fact we are told to judge other, how else would we know who to fellowship or have business dealing with or to marry? How would we know who to evangelize?
 
Matthew 7:1-5
 
 1.  “Do not judge, or you too will be judged.
 2.  For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
 3.  “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
 4.  How can you say to your brother, `Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?
 5.  You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
 
(A warning to judge correctly)
 

* 1 Corinthians 2:15 But he who is spiritual judges ~all~ things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.
* 1 Corinthians 6:2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

John 7:24
 24.  Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment.”
 
 
1 Corinthians 5:11-13
 11.  But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
 12.  What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
 13.  God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”
 

1 Corinthians 6:2-5
 2.  Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?
 3.  Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!

1 Corinthians 10:15
 15.  I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say.
 

The test is fruit.

Scripture tells us we are to make right judgments (John 7:24
*24.* Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment.” ) How else would we know if we are unequally yoked or to flee from false teachers.
We are told “by their fruits we will know them”

The idea that God wants us to walk though life without judging where we are to be or who we are to fellowship with is just not scriptural.

Scripture tells us we are to make right judgments (John 7:24
*24.* Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment.” )

How else would we know if we are unequally yoked or to flee from false teachers.
We are told “by their fruits we will know them” .

We can not judge a mans eternity, because God may come and act on a man at any time and bring him to a saving knowledge of Christ. But I can judge the mans current spiritual condition and I am actually told to do this.


40 posted on 05/27/2007 10:10:52 AM PDT by ears_to_hear
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To: Frumanchu
As a Calvinist, I have never believed that the church had been without the truth until the time of the Reformation. Rather, just as God at times had to purify His covenant people by fire, so His Church had to endure the Reformation in order to cleanse itself of some of the false teachings. And just as God's covenant people of Israel had split during its history and then eventually exploded beyond the boundaries of a single nation, so the Church has had the same happen.

Any Reformed Protestant who believes there was no true church until the 16th century didn't pay much attention to the words of the Reformers and is likely letting their opposition to the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church lead them to throw the baby out with the bath water.

well said

Wherever there are three persons, even though they are laymen, there is the church. Every man lives by his own faith, and God does not distinguish between classes. Since, in cases of necessity, you have the right to act as a priest, then you must also accept priestly discipline. It is God's will that all of us should be in the right spiritual state, at any time or place, to administer His sacraments. ... Tertullian (160?-230?)

It's no longer Rome's to dispense

Im a little "c" catholic

41 posted on 05/27/2007 10:42:49 AM PDT by Revelation 911
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To: ears_to_hear

“We can not judge a mans eternity, because God may come and act on a man at any time and bring him to a saving knowledge of Christ. But I can judge the mans current spiritual condition and I am actually told to do this”

That isn’t what you said in your reply, dear.

You said: “When did you gain the power and authority to read this man’s heart and judge his soul?
In scripture.”


42 posted on 05/27/2007 11:27:05 AM PDT by OpusatFR
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To: ears_to_hear; alpha-8-25-02; Frumanchu; Gamecock; HarleyD; 1000 silverlings; P-Marlowe; xzins; ...
Another unregenerate man looking for God. I guess he got tired of God not looking for him.

LOL. Yep.

Although frankly, I'm starting to think perhaps these recent "conversion" stories on FR are as much a fiction of Rome as is Mary's ascension bodily into heaven.

They read like a script written by a 14-year-old.

I actually laughed about how I could claim I had been one of the best Calvinists around, but then it hit me. Was that even something to boast about?

LOLOL. So I guess the moral of the story is it's better to be a Scripturally-illiterate Romanist who follows other men and magisteriums who put their trust in "early church fathers" over the Word of God, rather than a confident Calvinist who reads Scripture by the grace of the Holy Spirit and thus knows whom he has believed.

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" -- 1 Timothy 2:5

"Then shall it be for a man to burn: for he will take thereof, and warm himself; yea, he kindleth it, and baketh bread; yea, he maketh a god, and worshippeth it; he maketh it a graven image, and falleth down thereto.

He burneth part thereof in the fire; with part thereof he eateth flesh; he roasteth roast, and is satisfied: yea, he warmeth himself, and saith, Aha, I am warm, I have seen the fire:

And the residue thereof he maketh a god, even his graven image: he falleth down unto it, and worshippeth it, and prayeth unto it, and saith, Deliver me; for thou art my god.

They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.

And none considereth in his heart, neither is there knowledge nor understanding to say, I have burned part of it in the fire; yea, also I have baked bread upon the coals thereof; I have roasted flesh, and eaten it: and shall I make the residue thereof an abomination? shall I fall down to the stock of a tree?

He feedeth on ashes: a deceived heart hath turned him aside, that he cannot deliver his soul, nor say, Is there not a lie in my right hand?" -- Isiah 44:15-20


43 posted on 05/27/2007 12:23:20 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: ears_to_hear
We can not judge a mans eternity, because God may come and act on a man at any time and bring him to a saving knowledge of Christ. But I can judge the mans current spiritual condition and I am actually told to do this.

Amen.

"For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you." -- 1 Corinthians 11:19

44 posted on 05/27/2007 12:27:22 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Macoraba

**It’s simply a matter of history. The Catholic Church built upon St Peter the Rock was here first!**

History? I’ll give you history. The first record of disciples confessing that Jesus was the Christ is found in John 1:41 by Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother. In the next verse, the Lord calls Peter a stone.

Jesus Christ is the Cornerstone. Peter confirms this in 1Peter 2:6-8.

**Our Lord lived here on earth 2000 years ago so how could any group that did not come about til centuries later be his church? So that lets out the “reformers”, the Mormons, the JWs etc..**

Do you really believe that it took the devil years, or even months to create ‘more accurate’ Christianity?

I believe Satan was blindsided by Pentecost. Nevertheless, before that day was over, he was hatching deceptive ways to keep people from being ‘buried with HIM’ (not them) for the remission of sins, and misleading souls about the Holy Ghost infilling. And in harmony with all deceptive practices, the devil would not hesitate to lay claim to being the preserver of scripture.

The apostle Paul met a false prophet on the isle of Paphos during his first recorded missionary journey. Paul charged him with “perverting the right ways of the Lord” (Acts 13:6-11). Now, we know that there were Jews from all over the Middle East in Jerusalem on Pentecost. How many may have heard about what happened, but were not in the vicinity, yet went home saying: “I was there, (me too!, me too!) and this is what happened!”


45 posted on 05/27/2007 12:30:12 PM PDT by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....nearly 2,000 years and still working today!)
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To: Frumanchu
Any Reformed Protestant who believes there was no true church until the 16th century didn't pay much attention to the words of the Reformers and is likely letting their opposition to the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church lead them to throw the baby out with the bath water.

Can't be said often enough, Fru. Thanks for posting it!

46 posted on 05/27/2007 12:30:37 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (FR Member Alex Murphy: Declared Anathema By The Council Of Trent)
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To: Frumanchu
I'm amazed at how often this verse is misapplied. It so often seems to be interpreted as saying that hell will be attacking the church but the church will be able to survive it. In fact, it is saying that the church will be advancing against hell and the gates of hell will not prevent them from doing so. The Body of Christ...all believers bound together by their faith in the risen Lord...continues to advance as His Kingdom expands daily.

Amen.

"So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed." -- Acts 19:20

47 posted on 05/27/2007 12:31:30 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; ears_to_hear; alpha-8-25-02; Frumanchu; Gamecock; HarleyD; 1000 silverlings; ...
Although frankly, I'm starting to think perhaps these recent "conversion" stories on FR are as much a fiction of Rome as is Mary's ascension bodily into heaven.

Indeed:

From the Article above:

As I became least, Christ became more. I decided the only place I could go was the home where the Apostle Peter went. I was accepted into the Catholic Church in Easter 2002. I have never been happier and I wish and pray this joy for all. I will never be the same after taking the Body and Blood of our Lord.

From a 2001 posting on the web:

Salvation outside the Church
            QUESTION from Rodney Beason April 24, 2001

Greetings and thank you for letting me post a question. I am involved in a discussion with some very traditionally minded Catholics who state there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. For example Protestants are not saved. I am a Catholic as well, but when I bring up Vatican ll they scoff it is not an ancient source. Would you know of any pre Vatican ll statements I could show to them letting them know Protestants can be saved? Thank you kindly.


           

Notice how he claims he was admitted to the Catholic Church around Easter of 2002, but then he claims to be a Catholic in 2001.

Internet search engines reveal much.

48 posted on 05/27/2007 12:40:34 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe; All

THANKYOU PM,
SEE POST 19!

“I DO NOT DISRUPT THREADS,IT IS NOT A PROFITEABLE USE OF THE LORD’S TIME,HOWEVER THIS IS A OUTRIGHT LIE!

BEEN IN ROME,BORN THERE AND IF YOU CARE TO READ MY PROFILE,I BELIEVE CATHOLIC BELIEVERS AS WELL AS OTHER PROTESTANT BELIEVERS ARE SAVED.

MAN’S AUTHORITY MEAN’S NOTHING!”


49 posted on 05/27/2007 12:57:48 PM PDT by alpha-8-25-02 ("SAVED BY GRACE AND GRACE ALONE")
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; ears_to_hear; alpha-8-25-02; Frumanchu; Gamecock; HarleyD; 1000 silverlings; ...
Although frankly, I'm starting to think perhaps these recent "conversion" stories on FR are as much a fiction of Rome as is Mary's ascension bodily into heaven.

With most internet rumors there are often many versions of the story.

Here's another version of this story.

Notice how that version is signed "In Christ" but This one from the same site is signed "In Christ and Mary".

50 posted on 05/27/2007 12:58:31 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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