Posted on 06/02/2007 12:50:30 PM PDT by Titanites
Usually, when Christ told a parable, or an allegory, or made some other representational statement, and the disciples didn't understand, he explained - he said, "this is what I meant - the seed is God's word, etc. etc."
But in John 6, he says "verily I say unto you, except ye eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink his blood, there is no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I shall raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. Whosoever eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me and I in him." The disciples murmur among themselves, taking it quite literally, Christ does NOT say, "you misunderstand - here is the explanation." He repeats his statement, even more emphatically. And even when many of his disciples turned away and "walked with him no more," he did not correct the statement.
The Greek word translated as "indeed" is alhqhV - "truly, actually, really, I'm telling you the truth."
It's not just St. Athanasius . . . it is ALL the Early Church Fathers, without exception. The idea that the Eucharist is somehow merely a symbolic act or a fellowship meal is quite a modern idea. Even C.S. Lewis believed in the Real Presence, and felt it was necessary for modern Christians as part of the inclusion of both mystery religions and ethical religions in Christianity.
So, you have no problem with married priests?
"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. " -- Philippians 2:13
But intercession is quite different from mediation. You're conflating the two terms -- but words mean things.
Intercession is what you do when you ask a friend, or your brother, or your church congregation to pray for a sick family member. Catholics believe that the blessed in Heaven are as much a part of the Church as those of us still alive on earth, and we ask them to pray for us as we would ask somebody in our Sunday School class to pray for us. And since Mary is the Mother of God and the Queen Mother (check 1st Kings), we often ask her to intercede for us to her Son. She in turn reminds us, "Do whatever he tells you to." (John 2)
Nothing the Virgin Mary does detracts one iota from the glory and majesty of her Son, nor would she ever want to do such a thing. She points the way to him and helps Christians towards him, just as a particularly righteous member of your church might help you towards God.
Hate to break the news to you but it was those Early Church Fathers who decided Bible canon and it is their witness that that tells the Bible is the word of God.
Those very same Church Fathers who defended the Seven Sacraments
I wish you a Blessed day!
I'm sure you're familiar with the concept of Church Discipline as it's practiced, for example, among the Southern Baptists.
You have a link? I've read a bit of C.S. Lewis and would be a bit surprised if he made such a direct statement.
I have some friends on the faculty of Calvin College, an admirable lot, although we differ on many theological points—notably, double predestination.
You have to wonder, how could a young Christian boy get all the way into high school before he ever heard the words “Hail Mary”? Didn’t he ever read the gospels? Didn’t his pastors read the Christmas story at least once a year?
There it is, right in the gospel, spoken by an Angel: “Hail, Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.” Slightly different in the Geneva Bible, but not a whole lot.
Dear Friend, If the Church decides to change this,it would be fine with me. Personally,I don,t see it happening anytime soon.
In one place, I believe in Mere Christianity, he's talking about Christianity as being the only religion that combines two types of religion - like two types of soup, he says, clear and thick. "Thick" religions are the type with local associations and ecstatic rites and physical practices -- "clear" religions are the philosophical, ethical, moral ones. And, he adds, Christianity mediates between the two, it tells a West African convert from animism that he must obey the ethical law, and "it tells a twentieth-century prig like me to go fasting to a mystery - to take the body and blood of the Lord." (That quote is close; my Lewis books are upstairs.)
On another occasion, he's talking about going to church and instead of focussing on the service thinking about the guy in the next pew with squeaky boots or the grocer who hands you the program. Then he says, "Except for the Blessed Sacrament, the holiest object presented to your senses is your neighbor."
He refers to the Real Presence on other occasions, but those are the best examples I can give from memory.
You think that way because God has changed your way of thinking.
There is certainly involvement of the Holy Spirit.
Indeed.
I think a person can use their freewill to either accept or reject Christ.
If that can be done without the Holy Spirit first making one willing, then that, my dear brother, is Pelagianism.
Even though I have seen pockets of Pelgianism being expressed on this forum, I have yet to see anyone actually admit to being one.
After reading the definition of Pelgianism, would you admit that you subscribe to that theological viewpoint?
We have married Catholic priests in the United States today. Not many, but some.
Thank you for that masterful explication of the Real Presence. Clearly and lucidly explained.
And that is why there are 20K+ Non-Catholic ecclesiastical bodies.
And by the indwelling Holy Spirit, we do just that, knowing full well whom we have believed.
Read Ephesians 1 and 2; Romans 8 and 9; Colossians and Hebrews. It's all there, if you have been given eyes to see and ears to hear and a new heart with which to understand and believe.
A number of married former Episcopal priests have been re-ordained as Catholic priests, under the same discipline as permanent deacons -- they may serve even though married, but if their wives die they may not re-marry.
Former Episcopalians have also been allowed to maintain much of their old Prayer Book in the Anglican Use Rite.
It will be interesting to see what happens.
I did not state anything remotely close to that. Please do not read words into what I say. If I meant to say that the Holy Spirit has no role, I would have stated so. I find it hard to believe that anyone could possibly think the Holy Spirit is not involved in the opening on one's mind and heart to the Gospel message.
That’s unlikely.
I agree
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