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Protestants and the rosary
Paternosters Blogspot ^ | February 26, 2007 | Chris Laning

Posted on 06/05/2007 10:53:58 AM PDT by Frank Sheed

I grew up Protestant in the Northeastern U.S., in an area with many Irish and Italian families, so most of my playmates when I was in elementary school were Catholic. This was somewhat (ahem!) before Vatican II, and both Protestant and Catholic kids were taught by their parents (and sometimes even in Sunday School) to regard the other with suspicion, if not downright hostility. My Catholic playmates, for instance, said they were told they would spend eternity in Hell if they (literally!) so much as set foot inside a Protestant church building.

Boy, have things changed. While there are still plenty of Protestants who believe the Roman church is the Scarlet Woman of Babylon, for the most part Catholics and Protestants now acknowledge each other as fellow Christians, are often fairly relaxed about attending each other's worship services, and I suspect that informal, unofficial sharing of Communion is more common than the authorities on both sides would like to think. There are still plenty of incompatibilities (women priests, to name one) but I don't see that degree of almost superstitious mistrust of the "other" any more.

The status of the Virgin Mary is a point of difference between Catholics and Protestants, of course, and that's one of the reasons Protestants tend to be rather wary of the rosary. Unfortunately, I think people brought up Catholic often demonstrate how little they understand about their "separated brethren" when they blithely suggest that Protestants can pray the rosary too.

7002061

There are four main points I can think of about the rosary that give many Protestants problems. Briefly they are (from the Protestant point of view):
(1) What about Jesus's prohibition of "vain repetitions" in prayer?
(2) Does the Rosary give Mary too much honor?
(3) Do saints actually hear the prayers of living people?
(4) Is it legitimate to ask saints for favor?

I should make it clear here that when I say "Protestants" in this discussion, I am not including modern Anglicans or Episcopalians. There are certainly Anglicans who do say the rosary, either in the same form common to Roman Catholics or some other form, such as the modern Anglican rosary (which I still want to write about sometime). But what Americans usually call "mainstream" Protestants (Presbyterians, Methodists, etc.), and essentially all of the more evangelical and conservative Protestants, are generally opposed to the rosary as a Roman practice, and that's who I'm referring to here.

As I've said, Catholics do sometimes cheerfully assert that Protestants, too, can "honor" the Virgin Mary and pray the rosary. But I've noticed that somehow, all the Catholic stories that circulate about Protestants praying the rosary tend to end with the story's Protestant becoming a Catholic. If those are the only stories you ever hear, the (inadvertent) message is "If you start praying the rosay, you'll become Catholic" -- as though the rosary were the first step down a slippery slope!

I noticed this on Rosary Workshop's "Why pray the rosary?" page and mentioned it to the website's owner, Margot Carter-Blair -- who shared my amusement, once I'd pointed it out. Margot is now looking for some good stories about Protestants praying the rosary who stay Protestant.

Hmmm. Looks like this is the start of another series of articles....

7002067

The first challenge Protestants frequently offer is Matthew chapter 6, verse 7, where Jesus says (in the original King James 1611 spelling): "But when yee pray, use not vaine repetitions, as the heathen doe. For they thinke that they shall be heard for their much speaking."

This verse has had various English translations. Wycliffe's version from around 1400 says: "But in preiyng nyle yee speke myche, as hethene men doon, for thei gessen that thei ben herd in her myche speche." ("But in praying, nil [do not] ye speak much, as heathen men do, for they think that they are heard in their much speech.")

The Bishop's Bible (1568) says, amusingly, "But when ye pray, babble not much, as the heathen do. For they thynke that they shalbe heard, for theyr much bablinges sake."

One modern version puts it: "And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words." In all the versions the next verse says "Therefore be not lyke them, for your father knoweth, what thynges ye haue nede of, before ye aske of hym."

The King James version, however, is so entrenched in the English language that "vain repetitions" is the actual phrase the debate tends to focus on. Protestants generally assert that any repetition of the same prayer over and over must be "vain" by definition, since God really only needs to be asked once, and repeating the same words doesn't add anything.

The usual (rather feeble) Catholic defense is to argue that Christ didn't mean to prohibit all repetition but only vain repetition -- which is a very incomplete answer, since it leaves open the question of how you tell whether it's vain or not.

I think there's a point here, though: saying the same thing over and over doesn't necessarily mean it's less sincere. Parents and children, husbands and wives tell each other "I love you" over and over, and it doesn't seem to mean any less to them for being repeated.

Protestants generally don't see that their own argument isn't completely consistent. There may be no particular virtue in repeating the same prayer over again, but Protestants will cheerfully pray the "Our Father..." weekly and daily throughout their lives anyway. Many Protestants are taught that "true" prayer is spontaneous and from the heart, expressed in one's own words or wordless desires -- but if that were literally followed at all times, we'd all be praying like Quakers, who only pray as they feel "inspired" to do so. But in fact, most Protestant worship services do include standard, pre-written prayers in which everyone is expected to join. I was brought up, for instance, saying one that begins "Almighty and merciful Father, we have erred and strayed from thy ways like lost sheep...." every Sunday without fail.

I think both sides would admit that the idea of saying a prayer 10 or 100 or some other "round number" of times is something humans have dreamed up for our own satisfaction, not something God particularly cares about. (100 is only a round number if you're using a base-10 number system, anyway!) So perhaps the question that needs to be addressed is whether or not it's a good thing to allow our human preferences for certain numbers to affect our prayers this way. I can certainly see that reasonable adults could have different opinions on this.

to be continued

posted by Chris at 11:04 AM


TOPICS: Catholic; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: convert; historicalrosaries; penguinhumor; rosary
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To: ears_to_hear

God glories in His saints. All creation gives glory to God. All, meaning including the demons. It infuriates Satan and his minions to no end that even now, they as part of creation, gives glory to God. They continue to rebel and blaspheme, but they can’t help the fact that they were created by Him.


151 posted on 06/05/2007 6:12:42 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: ears_to_hear
My mother was raised Presbyterian, and I went to Peachtree Pres with my grandparents quite a bit. They always said the Lord's Prayer after the Prayers of the People.

I'm looking at an Order of Worship for a Presbyterian church on line right now - it's the first one I came to.

Give Thanks to God

The Prayers of the People begin this portion of the service. These prayers of intercession for individuals, the church, and the world may be spoken or sung and conclude with The Lord's Prayer.


152 posted on 06/05/2007 6:13:28 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: Tax-chick

My body is a vehicle for my soul. My soul will live forever. I know that this life is just a short journey that leads into the next no matter how many operations, exercises, etc. we might do.

There is an Army base not far from here. A veteran from Vietnam returned and was processed out of the Army. He was struck by a bus as he left the base and was crossing the boulevard passing the main gate.

When your number is up, it is up...


153 posted on 06/05/2007 6:14:05 PM PDT by Frank Sheed (Fr. V. R. Capodanno, Lt, USN, Catholic Chaplain. 3rd/5th, 1st Marine Div., FMF. MOH, posthumously.)
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To: ears_to_hear

The center of the Rosary is Jesus. To me, Mary represents man’s acceptance of Jesus. We should all accept, love and devote ourselves to Jesus. When I pray the first joyful mystery and read the Biblical quotes referring to the Annunciation I start right out embracing Jesus. Mary said yes...and so do I......I am immersed in His life from His Conception to His Ascension.

I pray and spend time with Jesus in other prayer as well.


154 posted on 06/05/2007 6:14:07 PM PDT by tioga (Fred Thompson for President.)
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To: ears_to_hear
An awful lot of Presbys out there are saying the Lord's Prayer as part of their Order of Worship
155 posted on 06/05/2007 6:16:26 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: Blogger

I would think a big part of worshipping would be to admit that something is being worshipped. I’m Catholic and I don’t worship Mary, and no Catholic pal of mine has ever admitted to me that, “yes, the Protestants are right, I’ve been worshipping Mary all this time!! Here is the secret Mary worshipping handshake, don’t tell or you’ll swing by yer rosaries!!!” Hell, even satanists admit to worshipping satan, why in the world do you think Catholics wouldn’t admit to worshipping Mary if that’s what they actually do? Fear of receiving the scorn of their fellow Christians?

Freegards


156 posted on 06/05/2007 6:16:50 PM PDT by Ransomed (Son of Ransomed says Keep the Faith!)
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To: AnAmericanMother

I assume that is the Presbyterian church USA ? We do not use any prayer books in the PCA.


157 posted on 06/05/2007 6:16:56 PM PDT by ears_to_hear
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To: AnAmericanMother

If I had been in the Navy when I was younger, I think I would have some choice poem of his tattooed on my arm. As it is, I just love the “rosary quote” as he ran for Parliament.

F


158 posted on 06/05/2007 6:16:57 PM PDT by Frank Sheed (Fr. V. R. Capodanno, Lt, USN, Catholic Chaplain. 3rd/5th, 1st Marine Div., FMF. MOH, posthumously.)
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To: ears_to_hear
"We prefer to approach the throne of God with our words"

Jesus, of course, is the Word.

Our Catholic brothers agree with us on this one.

159 posted on 06/05/2007 6:17:34 PM PDT by Enosh (†)
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To: Frank Sheed
Cracks me up every time I read it.

I understand that the crowd responded very favorably. Englishmen love (1) an underdog; (2) an honest man.

160 posted on 06/05/2007 6:17:59 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: AnAmericanMother
Those were PCUSA links. That is an apostate church that is marginally Christian. They ordain gays and women and are pro abortion etc. The one near me believes that Muslims and Hindus are saved if they are good people.

In short they pray the Our father because they do not know how to seek God on their own

161 posted on 06/05/2007 6:21:12 PM PDT by ears_to_hear
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To: Enosh

No I said we approach the throne of God with OUR words not vain repetitions


162 posted on 06/05/2007 6:23:17 PM PDT by ears_to_hear
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To: AnAmericanMother

Did you scan the Paternoster blog, Mother? The poor woman has a verse that looks like Dutch to me that she needs translated. She thinks it is one of the Psalms. It is in the middle of her blogging somewhere.

If you crack that riddle, you will have a friend for life.

F


163 posted on 06/05/2007 6:25:57 PM PDT by Frank Sheed (Fr. V. R. Capodanno, Lt, USN, Catholic Chaplain. 3rd/5th, 1st Marine Div., FMF. MOH, posthumously.)
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To: AnAmericanMother

“Myn Seele gebenedyt den Heere die u croont in bermhertigheyt ende ontferminghen - Psal. 102” I’m not sure how to translate this (German? Dutch? Low German?) and I can’t find the verse offhand in either Psalm 102 or 103, but it seems to be something beginning “My soul [blesses?] the Lord...

From April 2, 2007


164 posted on 06/05/2007 6:28:32 PM PDT by Frank Sheed (Fr. V. R. Capodanno, Lt, USN, Catholic Chaplain. 3rd/5th, 1st Marine Div., FMF. MOH, posthumously.)
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To: ears_to_hear
Well, you didn't confine your remarks to PCA, now, did you?

You said, "I have attended MANY services at Baptist churches, AOG's , Methodist ,.Wesleyan, Nazarene, Church of Christ and many other non denominational churches, I am a Presbyterian and I have never heard the "Our Father" used as a part of the service NEVER."

You were dead wrong about the Prebys, and I'm pretty sure you're dead wrong about the others too. My grandfather-in-law was a Methodist minister, and I'm now holding his personal hymnal with the Order of Worship in the back. Order of Worship I, item 7 is "The Lord's Prayer - which may be said or sung". Order of Worship II, item 12. Order of Worship III, item 6. Order of Worship IV (morning or evening prayer), item 7 "to be said by all."

I'm not going to go hunt out all the other denominations for your benefit, as Cromwell said, "I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken."

165 posted on 06/05/2007 6:28:57 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: AnAmericanMother
...as Cromwell said, "I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken."

NYUK!

166 posted on 06/05/2007 6:32:15 PM PDT by Frank Sheed (Fr. V. R. Capodanno, Lt, USN, Catholic Chaplain. 3rd/5th, 1st Marine Div., FMF. MOH, posthumously.)
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To: Frank Sheed
The keys seem to have been taken up into heaven at some point...

The Apocalypse Of Saint John

16 And he had in his right hand seven stars. And from his mouth came out a sharp two edged sword: and his face was as the sun shineth in his power. 17 And when I had seen him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying: Fear not. I am the First and the Last, 18 And alive, and was dead, and behold I am living for ever and ever, and have the keys of death and of hell.

167 posted on 06/05/2007 6:37:12 PM PDT by GoLightly
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To: GoLightly

God knows everything that is or will be. God started His Church and inspired the Apostolic men to write the Books of the Bible. And God knew that by the time the twenty-first century came along that there would be over 20,000 different denominations all contradicting each other on how to interpret the Bible. God wants us to know the truth with confident conviction, because only clear thinking will lead to that certainty of conviction that will enable a person to die to himself. No one dies to himself for just a fuzzy maybe. And only by dying to ourselves can we truly follow Jesus Christ and have true joy and everlasting life in Him. How can we know with absolute certainty what the correct interpretation of the Bible is ?

We read in Isaiah 22 how it is the transfer of the keys that designates Eliakim as the new master of the palace.

Isaiah 22:15-22 “… go to that official, Shebna, master of the palace,
… I will thrust you from your office and pull you down from your station.
On that day I will summon my servant Eliakim … and give over to him your authority. He shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem … I will place the key of the House of David on his shoulder; when he opens, no one shall shut, when he shuts, no one shall open.”

It was the transferring of the keys that denoted the transfer of power to the new successor of this office as the king’s representative, his regent, the master of the palace.

It was God the Father who had picked Peter to be the one to proclaim Jesus as the Messiah. And it was upon hearing this that Jesus alludes to that passage in Isaiah 22 above and gives the keys to Saint Peter.

Matthew 16:13-19 “When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi he asked his disciples, ‘Who do people say that the Son of Man is ?’
They replied, ‘Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.’
He said to them, ‘But who do you say that I am ?’
Simon Peter said in reply, ‘You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.’
Jesus said to him in reply, ‘Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.’ “

The keys represent absolute power to rule. They are owned by the King of Israel who entrusts them to his representative the “master of the palace.” Christ is the true King of Israel. Just as in Isaiah 22 above where the keys are handed down to the successors of the king’s prime minister we see Christ giving His keys to his designated “master of the palace,” his chief minister, his vicar, St. Peter.

That the “gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it” also implies succession for Peter’s office. Peter died. Yet, Christ’s promise is true. Peter who became the Bishop of Rome has a successor. The future tense used in Matthew 16, “will build” and “will give you the keys,” refers to what Christ will give to St. Peter after the Resurrection.

Jesus knew this teaching would be hard, that is to follow Him completely means to trust Him completely. Perhaps that is why Jesus gave his teaching about taking up our cross shortly after this revelation given near Caesarea Philippi, as we can see in the parallel passage in Luke.

Luke 9:20-25 “Then he said to them, ‘But who do you say that I am ?’ Peter said in reply, ‘The Messiah of God.’
… He said, ‘The Son of Man must … be killed and on the third day be raised.’
Then he said to all, ‘If anyone wishes to come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it. What profit is there for one to gain the whole world yet lose or forfeit himself ?’ “

God wants us to know the truth. Jesus knew when He started His Church that there would be confusion over how to interpret the Bible. That is why the institution of the Papacy is such a gift from God. The alternative is where each person is his own pope, and relying on the assumption that the Holy Spirit has guided his own judgment and his alone and to the contrary of over 20,000 different “Bible Alone” believing Churches as to how to interpret the Bible.

Peter is the Rock on which the Church is built. By himself, Peter is just a man, weak and a sinner. However, Christ is God and God is the Rock of our faith, (1 Cor. 10:14) it is the Rock of Christ that is working through Saint Peter that makes Peter’s Rock-ness faithful and sure. Peter is no longer just alone. It is the Holy Spirit that imparts to Peter the Rock-ness of Jesus Christ as he foretold in Matthew 16:19.

Peter, and his successors, and those in union with him give us infallible guidance as to how to follow our Lord Jesus Christ. We find true joy in knowing, loving, and serving Jesus Christ [according to His will.]

Luke 10:16 “Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.” NAB

Luke 22:29-32 “ … and I assign to you, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren.’ “ RSV

The meaning of the original Greek reveals that Satan had demanded to have “you -plural,” - meaning all of the disciples - but Christ says that He prayed for “you -singular” meaning Peter uniquely. (see KJV)

John 21:15 “Jesus said to Simon Peter, ‘Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these ?’ He said to him, ‘Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.’ He said to him, ‘Feed my lambs.’ “ NAB

Jesus gave over to Saint Peter the care of all of His sheep.
Now the only question is how many Christian sheep belong to Jesus ?
……………Answer: All of them.
[ All Bible quotations unless otherwise stated are from the New American Bible.]


168 posted on 06/05/2007 6:50:04 PM PDT by Frank Sheed (Fr. V. R. Capodanno, Lt, USN, Catholic Chaplain. 3rd/5th, 1st Marine Div., FMF. MOH, posthumously.)
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To: AnAmericanMother

I was confining my comments to Christian churches.

The PCUSA is MARGINALLY Christian . I have attended a few services at the one near me and NO OUR FATHER was said on those occasions.

I can only tell you that in 30 years of weekly attendance and often mid week attendance I have never heard the Our Father prayed.

It is my guess that the order of services you are looking at are not followed by the majority of the churches of that denomination with any regularity, it is rather like you
taking “St Joseph’s Trinitine missal” to mass. It is a Catholic “prayer book” it is a product of the church but no longer applicable to catholic mass

Protestants do not use “prayer books” in their services.


169 posted on 06/05/2007 6:50:17 PM PDT by ears_to_hear
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To: GoLightly

Evangelical discourse with Robert Sungenis

http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num41.htm


170 posted on 06/05/2007 6:51:01 PM PDT by Frank Sheed (Fr. V. R. Capodanno, Lt, USN, Catholic Chaplain. 3rd/5th, 1st Marine Div., FMF. MOH, posthumously.)
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To: ears_to_hear

I grew up Protestant, mainly Methodist, but with some Baptist and Presbyterian stays along the way, and every one said the Lord’s Prayer.


171 posted on 06/05/2007 6:51:44 PM PDT by kenth (I got tired of my last tagline...)
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To: XeniaSt

Sorry, but he said nothing about atoning.


172 posted on 06/05/2007 6:52:17 PM PDT by Suzy Quzy (Hillary '08...Her Phoniness is Genuine!!!)
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To: tiki

WOW!! And you aren’t Catholic?


173 posted on 06/05/2007 6:53:00 PM PDT by Suzy Quzy (Hillary '08...Her Phoniness is Genuine!!!)
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Comment #174 Removed by Moderator

Comment #175 Removed by Moderator

To: tiki

My best friend is a Missionary Baptist that was brought up to DISLIKE Catholic everything very much....but her childbirth experience was going so badly that she started praying to MARY, and then everything went fine!!


176 posted on 06/05/2007 6:57:18 PM PDT by Suzy Quzy (Hillary '08...Her Phoniness is Genuine!!!)
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Comment #177 Removed by Moderator

To: GoLightly

Shortened version:

Keys in the Bible always symbolize authority:
Revelation 1:18 And alive, and was dead, and behold I am living for ever and ever, and have the keys of death and of hell.

Isaiah 22:22 And I will lay the key of the house of David upon his shoulder: and he shall open, and none shall shut: and he shall shut, and none shall open.

Peter is the only apostle given a ‘key’ by Jesus, setting him apart:
Matthew 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

QUESTION: Isn’t this authority given to all the apostles, just as ‘binding and loosing’ was in Matthew 18:18?

ANSWER: The Douay Rheims (and King James Version also) use ‘thee’ to signify a singular subject or person, and you for plural. Thus, Jesus was specifically addressing Peter.

ADDITIONAL CONSIDERATIONS:
1. There is no other disciple mentioned as frequently and prominently in the New Testament as Peter.
2. Peter served as:
a. Group spokesman following Pentecost (Acts 1:14 +)
b. God chooses Peters in Acts 10_11 to introduce the Gentiles into the Church, and those who objected ‘held their peace’ (Acts 11:18) at Peter’s testimony
c. Peter is a target of imprisonment and miraculous escape (rather than being a martyr as James)
d. Peter’s words are respected and authoritative at the first Church Council in Jerusalem (Act 15:7 +)
e. Paul specifically visits Peter before working for the Church: Galatians 1:18 Then, after three years, I went to Jerusalem, to see Peter, and I tarried with him fifteen days.
3. Only Peter is commissioned specifically by Jesus to “feed my lambs” (John 21:15).
Aside from references to Christ, the Greek word lamb (arnion) is only used in he
New Testament to refer to the disciples (aren) in Luke 10:3. Thus, Jesus is commissioning to lead and care for the other apostles.


178 posted on 06/05/2007 7:03:02 PM PDT by Frank Sheed (Fr. V. R. Capodanno, Lt, USN, Catholic Chaplain. 3rd/5th, 1st Marine Div., FMF. MOH, posthumously.)
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To: AnAmericanMother

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1845279/posts?page=164#164

Have you seen this and the post preceding it? The blogger needs translation help!


179 posted on 06/05/2007 7:07:12 PM PDT by Frank Sheed (Fr. V. R. Capodanno, Lt, USN, Catholic Chaplain. 3rd/5th, 1st Marine Div., FMF. MOH, posthumously.)
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To: Suzy Quzy
Sorry, but he said nothing about atoning.

172 posted on 06/05/2007 7:52:17 PM MDT by Suzy Quzy

I have not a clue as to what you are addressing.

180 posted on 06/05/2007 7:09:14 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: sandyeggo

Hi kiddo! I’ve got an early dental appointment tomorrow. Could you hold down the fort? I have to be up early.

Hug!
F


181 posted on 06/05/2007 7:09:33 PM PDT by Frank Sheed (Fr. V. R. Capodanno, Lt, USN, Catholic Chaplain. 3rd/5th, 1st Marine Div., FMF. MOH, posthumously.)
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To: Suzy Quzy
Get over it people....we don't bother about your prayers. Are we HURTING you by praying the Rosary? Really??? WOW! And we don't pray to Mary or any of the Saints to do anything EXCEPT ask Jesus to help us.......it's like our TEAM rooting for us!

????? Get over what? This was posted by a Roman Catholic and I saw no immoderate Protestant response to it.

182 posted on 06/05/2007 7:10:11 PM PDT by higgmeister (In the Shadow of The Big Chicken)
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To: sandyeggo

3 AM rosaries are a good practice. I was told that this was the hour your Guardian Angel wakes you when some soul is in dire need!

F


183 posted on 06/05/2007 7:11:33 PM PDT by Frank Sheed (Fr. V. R. Capodanno, Lt, USN, Catholic Chaplain. 3rd/5th, 1st Marine Div., FMF. MOH, posthumously.)
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To: higgmeister

I think I already apologized.


184 posted on 06/05/2007 7:12:27 PM PDT by Suzy Quzy (Hillary '08...Her Phoniness is Genuine!!!)
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To: XeniaSt

Your reply #111.


185 posted on 06/05/2007 7:14:05 PM PDT by Suzy Quzy (Hillary '08...Her Phoniness is Genuine!!!)
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To: Suzy Quzy
But what is your question?

I'm afraid I did not understand your question.


186 posted on 06/05/2007 7:17:19 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: XeniaSt

Go read YOUR reply #111.


187 posted on 06/05/2007 7:18:04 PM PDT by Suzy Quzy (Hillary '08...Her Phoniness is Genuine!!!)
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To: sandyeggo

Sandy How does vanity in ones appearance or achievement fit in the sentence?


188 posted on 06/05/2007 7:22:12 PM PDT by ears_to_hear
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To: Tax-chick; Frank Sheed
I do NOT live upon wine! I live upon lentils, chickpeas and eggplant, and the wine is just to wash it down!

LOVE IT!!!

You MUST be Lebanese but probably don't realize it!!!

M'Juderah is one of their most popular dishes. It is made from lentils, caramelized onions and rice. Babaganoush is a spread made from cooked eggplants and tahini, with garlic of course. The chickpeas are a mainstay in the middle eastern diet - felafel (mashed chickpeas, garlic and seasonings, formed and deep fried), hummous - chickpea spread with lemon, crushed garlic and tahini ... I could go on and on. You should invest in a Lebanese recipe book ... no, wait! Our parish plans to put one out in the near future. I'll send it to you once it is printed :-)

189 posted on 06/05/2007 7:23:06 PM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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Comment #190 Removed by Moderator

To: AnAmericanMother; sandyeggo
I often do fall asleep while saying my Rosary - if I wake up in the middle of the night and can't sleep, I always say it rather than lie awake and stare at the ceiling . .

Yes! I keep a rosary under my pillow and pray it while going to sleep and again when the hounds wake me up during the night. I never run out of people for whom to pray and always save one decade for the souls in Purgatory. There have been several occasions when I have awoken in the morning to the perfume of flowers or a man's cologne. I'm guessing this emanates from some soul freed from Purgatory by those prayers who 'dropped by' to let me know.

191 posted on 06/05/2007 7:29:02 PM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: Frank Sheed
Where you see binding & transferable authority, I see a burden of responsibility. You may think that it’s impossible to fulfill that responsibility without the authority, but history is an excellent teacher that authority in the hands of men leads to corruption. When the Holy Spirit provided imperfect believers (opportunities to work out differences in love), men watered the earth with their blood in an effort to purify the body.

Yes, the key is symbolic, which means that a spare isn’t needed or possible & there is only one original key. Jesus will be bringing it with Him in the end of days, which tells me it is no longer here on earth.

192 posted on 06/05/2007 7:29:24 PM PDT by GoLightly
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Comment #193 Removed by Moderator

To: ears_to_hear
Are you a protestant . Where do you go to services?

Yes, I am Protestant. I was raised in, and still attend, a Methodist church. But I've also attended services in Presbyterian (both USA and PCA); Southern Baptist; Nazarene; Wesleyan; and a variety of 'independent', evangelical churches. I cannot think of a one where we didn't say the Lord's Prayer.

194 posted on 06/05/2007 7:55:00 PM PDT by Flo Nightengale (long-time lurker)
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To: Frank Sheed
That looks an awful lot like Plattdeutsch - Low German. I have a suspicion that it may be rather old-fashioned Dutch(the borders between Plattdeutsch, Flemish, and Nederlandisch get fuzzy, especially over time!). What's funny is that the spelling is the main problem, if you read it out loud it's pretty close to High German.

Looks like a conflation of three verses of Psalm 103 (I know that the numbering of Psalms varies - even in the Episcopal Church the King James version and Cranmer's Psalter were numbered differently) -

In the Luther Bible, it's vs. 4 "der dich krönt mit Gnade und Barmherzigkeit" with the refrain from vs. 1-2 and the last 2 verses, "Loben den Herrn meine Seele" -- Bless the Lord my soul, that crowns you in mercy and grace.

In the King James it's "Bless the Lord, O my soul . . . . who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies."

"ontferminghen" is less plain to me, but it sounds sort of like a form of the verb "entfernen" - which means "to put far away". Which sounds like vs. 12 - so far as the east is from the west, he has put away our sins. A more modern version of the German bible uses the verb "entfernen" in vs. 12 - so I bet that's it. The only use of the word I could find is in a Dutch church charter, and I can't really read Dutch - just enough to follow it vaguely. But it does look like it's being used in the sense of "set apart".

Any Dutch speakers out there?

195 posted on 06/05/2007 8:03:05 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: Frank Sheed
Re: your post 179.

I TRIED but it took me awhile and I'm not particularly satisfied with the result.

I am convinced that it's old-fashioned Biblical Dutch.

196 posted on 06/05/2007 8:05:44 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: ears_to_hear
I just found this from the PCA Book of Church Order, Chapter 52:

Public Prayer

52-1. It is proper to begin the public worship in the sanctuary with the Doxology followed by a short prayer, in which the minister shall lead the people, humbly adoring the infinite majesty of the living God, expressing a sense of our distance from Him as creatures, and our unworthiness as sinners; and humbly imploring His gracious presence, the assistance of His Holy Spirit in the duties of His worship, and His acceptance of us through the merits of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. It is appropriate that this prayer conclude with the Lord’s Prayer in which all may unite.

I attended a PCA Church in Middle Tennessee for a while, and I know we said the Lord's Prayer at each service.

197 posted on 06/05/2007 8:08:34 PM PDT by Flo Nightengale (long-time lurker)
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To: ears_to_hear
I just found this from the PCA Book of Church Order, Chapter 52:

Public Prayer

52-1. It is proper to begin the public worship in the sanctuary with the Doxology followed by a short prayer, in which the minister shall lead the people, humbly adoring the infinite majesty of the living God, expressing a sense of our distance from Him as creatures, and our unworthiness as sinners; and humbly imploring His gracious presence, the assistance of His Holy Spirit in the duties of His worship, and His acceptance of us through the merits of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. It is appropriate that this prayer conclude with the Lord’s Prayer in which all may unite.

I attended a PCA Church in Middle Tennessee for a while, and I know we said the Lord's Prayer at each service.

198 posted on 06/05/2007 8:08:39 PM PDT by Flo Nightengale (long-time lurker)
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To: Ransomed

The Bible says about money, where your treasure is there will your heart be also. One can not serve God and money.

Do you think that the people who fall into that category actually believe that money is a god to them? Do you think they admit that?

One does not have to admit or even fully realize about themselves what objects of worship that they have set up in addition to God.


199 posted on 06/05/2007 8:14:22 PM PDT by Blogger
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To: Frank Sheed

Red Herring.


200 posted on 06/05/2007 8:15:39 PM PDT by Blogger
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