Protestants and the rosary

Paternosters Blogspot ^ | February 26, 2007 | Chris Laning

[Frank Sheed]

I grew up Protestant in the Northeastern U.S., in an area with many Irish and Italian families, so most of my playmates when I was in elementary school were Catholic. This was somewhat (ahem!) before Vatican II, and both Protestant and Catholic kids were taught by their parents (and sometimes even in Sunday School) to regard the other with suspicion, if not downright hostility. My Catholic playmates, for instance, said they were told they would spend eternity in Hell if they (literally!) so much as set foot inside a Protestant church building.

Boy, have things changed. While there are still plenty of Protestants who believe the Roman church is the Scarlet Woman of Babylon, for the most part Catholics and Protestants now acknowledge each other as fellow Christians, are often fairly relaxed about attending each other's worship services, and I suspect that informal, unofficial sharing of Communion is more common than the authorities on both sides would like to think. There are still plenty of incompatibilities (women priests, to name one) but I don't see that degree of almost superstitious mistrust of the "other" any more.

The status of the Virgin Mary is a point of difference between Catholics and Protestants, of course, and that's one of the reasons Protestants tend to be rather wary of the rosary. Unfortunately, I think people brought up Catholic often demonstrate how little they understand about their "separated brethren" when they blithely suggest that Protestants can pray the rosary too.



There are four main points I can think of about the rosary that give many Protestants problems. Briefly they are (from the Protestant point of view):
(1) What about Jesus's prohibition of "vain repetitions" in prayer?
(2) Does the Rosary give Mary too much honor?
(3) Do saints actually hear the prayers of living people?
(4) Is it legitimate to ask saints for favor?

I should make it clear here that when I say "Protestants" in this discussion, I am not including modern Anglicans or Episcopalians. There are certainly Anglicans who do say the rosary, either in the same form common to Roman Catholics or some other form, such as the modern Anglican rosary (which I still want to write about sometime). But what Americans usually call "mainstream" Protestants (Presbyterians, Methodists, etc.), and essentially all of the more evangelical and conservative Protestants, are generally opposed to the rosary as a Roman practice, and that's who I'm referring to here.

As I've said, Catholics do sometimes cheerfully assert that Protestants, too, can "honor" the Virgin Mary and pray the rosary. But I've noticed that somehow, all the Catholic stories that circulate about Protestants praying the rosary tend to end with the story's Protestant becoming a Catholic. If those are the only stories you ever hear, the (inadvertent) message is "If you start praying the rosay, you'll become Catholic" -- as though the rosary were the first step down a slippery slope!

I noticed this on Rosary Workshop's "Why pray the rosary?" page and mentioned it to the website's owner, Margot Carter-Blair -- who shared my amusement, once I'd pointed it out. Margot is now looking for some good stories about Protestants praying the rosary who stay Protestant.

Hmmm. Looks like this is the start of another series of articles....



The first challenge Protestants frequently offer is Matthew chapter 6, verse 7, where Jesus says (in the original King James 1611 spelling): "But when yee pray, use not vaine repetitions, as the heathen doe. For they thinke that they shall be heard for their much speaking."

This verse has had various English translations. Wycliffe's version from around 1400 says: "But in preiyng nyle yee speke myche, as hethene men doon, for thei gessen that thei ben herd in her myche speche." ("But in praying, nil [do not] ye speak much, as heathen men do, for they think that they are heard in their much speech.")

The Bishop's Bible (1568) says, amusingly, "But when ye pray, babble not much, as the heathen do. For they thynke that they shalbe heard, for theyr much bablinges sake."

One modern version puts it: "And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words." In all the versions the next verse says "Therefore be not lyke them, for your father knoweth, what thynges ye haue nede of, before ye aske of hym."

The King James version, however, is so entrenched in the English language that "vain repetitions" is the actual phrase the debate tends to focus on. Protestants generally assert that any repetition of the same prayer over and over must be "vain" by definition, since God really only needs to be asked once, and repeating the same words doesn't add anything.

The usual (rather feeble) Catholic defense is to argue that Christ didn't mean to prohibit all repetition but only vain repetition -- which is a very incomplete answer, since it leaves open the question of how you tell whether it's vain or not.

I think there's a point here, though: saying the same thing over and over doesn't necessarily mean it's less sincere. Parents and children, husbands and wives tell each other "I love you" over and over, and it doesn't seem to mean any less to them for being repeated.

Protestants generally don't see that their own argument isn't completely consistent. There may be no particular virtue in repeating the same prayer over again, but Protestants will cheerfully pray the "Our Father..." weekly and daily throughout their lives anyway. Many Protestants are taught that "true" prayer is spontaneous and from the heart, expressed in one's own words or wordless desires -- but if that were literally followed at all times, we'd all be praying like Quakers, who only pray as they feel "inspired" to do so. But in fact, most Protestant worship services do include standard, pre-written prayers in which everyone is expected to join. I was brought up, for instance, saying one that begins "Almighty and merciful Father, we have erred and strayed from thy ways like lost sheep...." every Sunday without fail.

I think both sides would admit that the idea of saying a prayer 10 or 100 or some other "round number" of times is something humans have dreamed up for our own satisfaction, not something God particularly cares about. (100 is only a round number if you're using a base-10 number system, anyway!) So perhaps the question that needs to be addressed is whether or not it's a good thing to allow our human preferences for certain numbers to affect our prayers this way. I can certainly see that reasonable adults could have different opinions on this.

to be continued

posted by Chris at 11:04 AM  

[Frank Sheed]

Hi kiddo! I’ve got an early dental appointment tomorrow. Could you hold down the fort? I have to be up early.

Hug!
F

[higgmeister]

Get over it people....we don't bother about your prayers. Are we HURTING you by praying the Rosary? Really??? WOW! And we don't pray to Mary or any of the Saints to do anything EXCEPT ask Jesus to help us.......it's like our TEAM rooting for us!

????? Get over what? This was posted by a Roman Catholic and I saw no immoderate Protestant response to it.

[Frank Sheed]

3 AM rosaries are a good practice. I was told that this was the hour your Guardian Angel wakes you when some soul is in dire need!

F

[Suzy Quzy]

I think I already apologized.

[Suzy Quzy]

Your reply #111.

[Uri’el-2012]

But what is your question?

I'm afraid I did not understand your question.

[Suzy Quzy]

Go read YOUR reply #111.

[ears_to_hear]

Sandy How does vanity in ones appearance or achievement fit in the sentence?

[NYer]

I do NOT live upon wine! I live upon lentils, chickpeas and eggplant, and the wine is just to wash it down!

LOVE IT!!!

You MUST be Lebanese but probably don't realize it!!!

M'Juderah is one of their most popular dishes. It is made from lentils, caramelized onions and rice. Babaganoush is a spread made from cooked eggplants and tahini, with garlic of course. The chickpeas are a mainstay in the middle eastern diet - felafel (mashed chickpeas, garlic and seasonings, formed and deep fried), hummous - chickpea spread with lemon, crushed garlic and tahini ... I could go on and on. You should invest in a Lebanese recipe book ... no, wait! Our parish plans to put one out in the near future. I'll send it to you once it is printed :-)

[NYer]

I often do fall asleep while saying my Rosary - if I wake up in the middle of the night and can't sleep, I always say it rather than lie awake and stare at the ceiling . .

Yes! I keep a rosary under my pillow and pray it while going to sleep and again when the hounds wake me up during the night. I never run out of people for whom to pray and always save one decade for the souls in Purgatory. There have been several occasions when I have awoken in the morning to the perfume of flowers or a man's cologne. I'm guessing this emanates from some soul freed from Purgatory by those prayers who 'dropped by' to let me know.

[GoLightly]

Where you see binding & transferable authority, I see a burden of responsibility. You may think that it’s impossible to fulfill that responsibility without the authority, but history is an excellent teacher that authority in the hands of men leads to corruption. When the Holy Spirit provided imperfect believers (opportunities to work out differences in love), men watered the earth with their blood in an effort to purify the body.

Yes, the key is symbolic, which means that a spare isn’t needed or possible & there is only one original key. Jesus will be bringing it with Him in the end of days, which tells me it is no longer here on earth.

[Flo Nightengale]

Are you a protestant . Where do you go to services?

Yes, I am Protestant. I was raised in, and still attend, a Methodist church. But I've also attended services in Presbyterian (both USA and PCA); Southern Baptist; Nazarene; Wesleyan; and a variety of 'independent', evangelical churches. I cannot think of a one where we didn't say the Lord's Prayer.

[AnAmericanMother]

That looks an awful lot like Plattdeutsch - Low German. I have a suspicion that it may be rather old-fashioned Dutch(the borders between Plattdeutsch, Flemish, and Nederlandisch get fuzzy, especially over time!). What's funny is that the spelling is the main problem, if you read it out loud it's pretty close to High German.

Looks like a conflation of three verses of Psalm 103 (I know that the numbering of Psalms varies - even in the Episcopal Church the King James version and Cranmer's Psalter were numbered differently) -

In the Luther Bible, it's vs. 4 "der dich krönt mit Gnade und Barmherzigkeit" with the refrain from vs. 1-2 and the last 2 verses, "Loben den Herrn meine Seele" -- Bless the Lord my soul, that crowns you in mercy and grace.

In the King James it's "Bless the Lord, O my soul . . . . who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies."

"ontferminghen" is less plain to me, but it sounds sort of like a form of the verb "entfernen" - which means "to put far away". Which sounds like vs. 12 - so far as the east is from the west, he has put away our sins. A more modern version of the German bible uses the verb "entfernen" in vs. 12 - so I bet that's it. The only use of the word I could find is in a Dutch church charter, and I can't really read Dutch - just enough to follow it vaguely. But it does look like it's being used in the sense of "set apart".

Any Dutch speakers out there?

[AnAmericanMother]

Re: your post 179.

I TRIED but it took me awhile and I'm not particularly satisfied with the result.

I am convinced that it's old-fashioned Biblical Dutch.

[Flo Nightengale]

I just found this from the PCA Book of Church Order, Chapter 52:

Public Prayer

52-1. It is proper to begin the public worship in the sanctuary with the Doxology followed by a short prayer, in which the minister shall lead the people, humbly adoring the infinite majesty of the living God, expressing a sense of our distance from Him as creatures, and our unworthiness as sinners; and humbly imploring His gracious presence, the assistance of His Holy Spirit in the duties of His worship, and His acceptance of us through the merits of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. It is appropriate that this prayer conclude with the Lord’s Prayer in which all may unite.

I attended a PCA Church in Middle Tennessee for a while, and I know we said the Lord's Prayer at each service.

[Flo Nightengale]

I just found this from the PCA Book of Church Order, Chapter 52:

Public Prayer

52-1. It is proper to begin the public worship in the sanctuary with the Doxology followed by a short prayer, in which the minister shall lead the people, humbly adoring the infinite majesty of the living God, expressing a sense of our distance from Him as creatures, and our unworthiness as sinners; and humbly imploring His gracious presence, the assistance of His Holy Spirit in the duties of His worship, and His acceptance of us through the merits of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. It is appropriate that this prayer conclude with the Lord’s Prayer in which all may unite.

I attended a PCA Church in Middle Tennessee for a while, and I know we said the Lord's Prayer at each service.

[Blogger]

The Bible says about money, where your treasure is there will your heart be also. One can not serve God and money.

Do you think that the people who fall into that category actually believe that money is a god to them? Do you think they admit that?

One does not have to admit or even fully realize about themselves what objects of worship that they have set up in addition to God.

[Blogger]

Red Herring.