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Protestants and the rosary
Paternosters Blogspot ^ | February 26, 2007 | Chris Laning

Posted on 06/05/2007 10:53:58 AM PDT by Frank Sheed

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Interesting blog from a Catholic Convert on the Rosary! This is Part One of Four! She is also interested in historical rosaries and has some nice examples on her blog.
1 posted on 06/05/2007 10:54:01 AM PDT by Frank Sheed
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To: Pyro7480; monkapotamus; ELS; Theophane; indult; St. Johann Tetzel; B Knotts; livius; k omalley; ...

Tridentine Ping List. Hopefully, this will be of interest!


2 posted on 06/05/2007 10:56:00 AM PDT by Frank Sheed (Fr. V. R. Capodanno, Lt, USN, Catholic Chaplain. 3rd/5th, 1st Marine Div., FMF. MOH, posthumously.)
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Parts One through Four are linked from here.

http://paternosters.blogspot.com/2007/03/protestants-iv-can-protestants-hail.html


3 posted on 06/05/2007 10:58:48 AM PDT by Frank Sheed (Fr. V. R. Capodanno, Lt, USN, Catholic Chaplain. 3rd/5th, 1st Marine Div., FMF. MOH, posthumously.)
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protestants and the rosary, conclusion



There are three basic prayers in the Rosary: the Our Father ("Our Father, who art in heaven..."), the Gloria ("Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit...") and the Hail Mary.

The first two are not controversial: in fact, many Protestants say them quite routinely, especially in weekly church services.

Even for Protestants who might otherwise be comfortable with the repetitive and meditative aspects of the rosary, however, the "Hail Mary" may still give them pause. I've already outlined some of the reasons why. Here's what the prayer says:

AVE MARIA, gratia plena, Dominus tecum. Benedicta tu in mulieribus, et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus. Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc, et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen.

"HAIL, MARY, full of grace; the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen."

Donors22

One of the classic Catholic stories of Protestants "discovering" the rosary shows the Protestant suddenly realizing that the first words of the "Hail Mary" prayer come straight out of the Gospel of Luke. "Aha!" crows the Catholic, "See? It's right out of the Bible!"

Well, sort of. :)

Certainly it's partly true that this comes out of Scripture. "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee... blessed art thou among women" is the angel Gabriel's salutation to Mary, who has been chosen as the mother of Christ (Luke 1:28).

The second phrase is also a direct quote from the Bible. "Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb" is the greeting spoken by Mary's cousin Elizabeth when Mary comes to visit her (Luke 1:42).

Protestants, however, point out that the first of these is a greeting spoken by an angel, not a human being. The second is spoken directly to Mary's face by someone she knew on earth. Neither of them is presented as something ordinary believers in later times are supposed to go around repeating -- in contrast, for instance, to the things Christians are directly admonished to do, such as praying after the model of the Our Father, or washing one another's feet.

If the question is whether it's legitimate to use someone else's words to express greetings or praise, of course the answer is yes. But this doesn't answer the question a Protestant would raise: Is there a reason for greeting or praising the Virgin Mary at all? Even Protestants who are comfortable with the idea of asking saints in heaven to pray for us (as we do our friends on earth) might feel this reminds them too strongly of the praise and worship given to God.

There may never be a "Protestant rosary," as such, since as we've seen there are several aspects of the rosary that Protestants may continue to be uncomfortable with.

But I do think there are ways of recognizing Mary's role in salvation history that Protestants and Catholics can agree on, and perhaps pray about. In that sense, and with proper understanding on all sides, perhaps Protestants can find ways to appreciate Mary after all.

7003543

I find myself thinking here of the Angelus, a prayer formula that has traditionally been said by devout Catholics at the ringing of a bell at dawn, noon, and sunset (familiar from references like the 19th-century painting "The Angelus" by Jean-François Millet, which shows field workers pausing to pray). While the Angelus grew out of an older custom of saying three Hail Marys at sunset, dawn, and noon, other words were soon added.

In the version I learned, it goes like this:

"The Angel of the Lord appeared unto Mary,
and she was filled with the Holy Spirit.

("Hail, Mary, full of grace..... etc.)

"Behold the Handmaid of the Lord.
Be it done to me according to Thy Word.

("Hail, Mary, full of grace..... etc.)

"And the Word was made flesh
and dwelt among us.

("Hail, Mary, full of grace..... etc.)

"Pour forth, we beseech thee, O Lord, thy Grace into our hearts; that we to whom the Incarnation of Christ, thy Son, was made known by the message of an angel, may by his passion and cross, be brought to the glory of His resurrection, through the same Christ our Lord. Amen."

other posts in this series:


Part I: Protestants and the Rosary
Part II: Worship, honor, and the Virgin Mary
Part III: Addressing saints

Labels: , ,

posted by Chris at 1:44 PM

4 posted on 06/05/2007 11:07:36 AM PDT by Frank Sheed (Fr. V. R. Capodanno, Lt, USN, Catholic Chaplain. 3rd/5th, 1st Marine Div., FMF. MOH, posthumously.)
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To: Frank Sheed

The caucus designation was removed. The article does not qualify for a caucus because it makes claims about Protestant beliefs.


5 posted on 06/05/2007 11:08:36 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Frank Sheed

Romans 8:26 In the same way the Spirit also joins to help in our weakness, because we do not know what to pray for as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with unspoken groanings.


6 posted on 06/05/2007 11:08:39 AM PDT by Liberal Bob
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To: Frank Sheed
"HAIL, MARY, full of grace; the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen."

The proddie gripe here is twofold.


7 posted on 06/05/2007 11:34:46 AM PDT by Enosh ()
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To: Frank Sheed
#1.....Jeus GAVE us The Our Father Prayer and Elizabeth basically gave us the Hail Mary!

Get over it people....we don't bother about your prayers. Are we HURTING you by praying the Rosary? Really??? WOW! And we don't pray to Mary or any of the Saints to do anything EXCEPT ask Jesus to help us.......it's like our TEAM rooting for us!

8 posted on 06/05/2007 11:39:16 AM PDT by Suzy Quzy (Hillary '08...Her Phoniness is Genuine!!!)
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To: Enosh

If the proddie’s don’;t like it, they don’t have to do it.....we don’t care what they do, just leave us alone.


9 posted on 06/05/2007 11:41:11 AM PDT by Suzy Quzy (Hillary '08...Her Phoniness is Genuine!!!)
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To: Suzy Quzy
"just leave us alone."

The headline is "Protestants and the rosary", don't you think at least one of us is going to speak up?

If you don't like it, you leave us alone.

10 posted on 06/05/2007 11:44:47 AM PDT by Enosh ()
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To: Suzy Quzy; Salvation; NYer

By the way, I have many times thought of becoming a Catholic, my beliefs match yours 99% anyway.

But it’s this one big issue - praying to someone who isn’t God... I just can’t do it.

God Bless, sister.


11 posted on 06/05/2007 12:06:41 PM PDT by Enosh ()
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To: Enosh
But it’s this one big issue - praying to someone who isn’t God... I just can’t do it.

Neither can we :-)

We don't 'pray' to Mary or the 'saints'; we ask them to intercede on our behalf. Oh sure, we also go to the Top and ask our Lord but we know from history (the Wedding Feast of Cana) that our Lord listens to His mother.

I have many times thought of becoming a Catholic

Then you will appreciate this story from someone who, in a million years, NEVER thought of becoming a Catholic, much less a christian. But God acts in extraordinary ways.

ROY SCHOEMAN

12 posted on 06/05/2007 12:27:04 PM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: Enosh
The Rosary isn't praying - it's a request for intercession on the part of the Queen Mother.

That's made plain at the end of the Rosary, when you finish by saying, "Let us pray. O God, who by the life, death and resurrection of thine only Son, our saviour, Jesus Christ, hath gained for us the fruits of everlasting life; grant that we, by meditating on the mysteries of the Holy Rosary, may imitate what they contain, and obtain what they promise, through the same Christ Our Lord, Amen."

You're not praying to Mary when you say the Rosary - the Hail Mary is a request for her help. And each 10 beads you are supposed to be meditating on an event in the life of Christ -- if you look up the 20 Mysteries (there are 4 sets of 5) you will see that all but 2 are incidents from the Life of Christ (other than the Assumption and Coronation of the Virgin at the very end -- which can be seen as the ultimate reward of a holy life.) The Our Father, the Glory Be, and the Fatima Prayer (after every 10 beads) are all directed to God - The Our Father to God the Father, the Fatima Prayer to Christ, and the Glory Be to the Trinity.

You're not praying to Mary any more than you're praying to your Sunday School classmates when you ask them to pray for you. "Pray for us sinners . . . "

13 posted on 06/05/2007 12:32:39 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: Enosh
By the way, I have many times thought of becoming a Catholic, my beliefs match yours 99% anyway.

But it’s this one big issue - praying to someone who isn’t God... I just can’t do it.

The thread was not posted to "disrespect" anyone. The blogger who posts this site is a former Protestant and I used the Catholic Caucus designation which was lifted by the Religious Mod.

I am a cradle Catholic and so I cannot say HOW you feel. That would be presumptuous of me. I also know that many of my Protestant brethern (including some who have eventually converted and become Catholic), admit that this is something they have the "greatest" trouble and soul-searching with (the Hahns are examples, I believe).

As for me, I cannot remember a time when my mother and my aunts did not say the rosary and often more than one in a day.

The blog has four links that go over various aspects of the rosary. It is interesting that this woman, who did not like the rosary, not only says it now but has an incredible curiosity in its history!

I am fond of saying that we should Witness to our beliefs, but that the Holy Spirit takes things from there. I wish you would consider joining us, especially if this is one of the few things holding you back. I can tell you that my sister attended a funeral of an elderly man, and the family who was not Catholic asked her to say the Rosary. She led those who wished to say the Rosary for the repose of this man's soul. Afterwards, several Baptists had a number of questions about the Rosary since they had just seen the "Passion of the Christ" and noted that the Hail Mary is taken largely from Luke.

I wish you the Lord's peace! May God bless you for your courage to speak out so respectfully.

In Christ Jesus,
Frank

14 posted on 06/05/2007 12:35:09 PM PDT by Frank Sheed (Fr. V. R. Capodanno, Lt, USN, Catholic Chaplain. 3rd/5th, 1st Marine Div., FMF. MOH, posthumously.)
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To: Enosh; NYer

Additionally, if you don’t want to pray to Mary or any of the other Saints, DON’T DO IT. There is no such requirement, many of us don’t, but it is allowable. Oh, and if we do we still close with “through Jesus Christ Our Lord.”


15 posted on 06/05/2007 12:36:52 PM PDT by ichabod1 ("Liberals read Karl Marx. Conservatives UNDERSTAND Karl Marx." Ronald Reagan)
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To: NYer
'an elderly monk came out to speak with me. He approached and shyly asked, "Tell us, if you don't mind — We couldn't help noticing that you do not receive communion, so you must not be Catholic. What then are you?" When I replied "Jewish", he grinned and with a deep sigh said "That's a relief! We were afraid you were Protestant!"'

LOL! Great story, thanks for the link.

16 posted on 06/05/2007 12:39:16 PM PDT by Enosh ()
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To: Enosh
It's a truly remarkable story and so is his book ...

SALVATION IS FROM THE JEWS

17 posted on 06/05/2007 12:54:24 PM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: Frank Sheed

Thanks. Old dog - new tricks, you know. I’ve got so much practice with this “Fire Breathing Wacko Fundamentalist” gig...

... Hmmm... I suppose thumping the Bible with rosary beads would be okay too... ;)


18 posted on 06/05/2007 12:56:29 PM PDT by Enosh ()
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Comment #19 Removed by Moderator

To: Suzy Quzy
Get over it people....we don't bother about your prayers. Are we HURTING you by praying the Rosary? Really???

I find you post amusing. Did you read the article? It is about Catholics convincing Protestants to pray the Rosary.

Here is a more appropriate response to this thread:

Get over it people....we don't bother about your prayers. Are we HURTING you by not praying the Rosary? Really??? WOW! And we don't pray to Mary or any of the Saints to do anything EXCEPT ask Jesus to help us.......it's like our TEAM rooting for us!

20 posted on 06/05/2007 12:57:46 PM PDT by Between the Lines (I am very cognizant of my fallibility, sinfulness, and other limitations.)
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