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Thank God For the Magisterium
NCR ^ | June 10, 2007 | Mark Shea

Posted on 06/10/2007 3:02:20 PM PDT by NYer

Many modern people have the notion that the principal mission of the Catholic Church is to impose belief on unbelievers. The reality is that most of its time is spent trying to restrain belief in everything from spoon-bending to the aliens who allegedly speak to us through a cat in Poughkeepsie.

The riptides and cross-currents of religious enthusiasm in American culture are kaleidoscopic and dizzying. Cradle Catholics can be forgiven for just ignoring the whole thing and many of them do. But it’s still worth taking into account because some religious trends can have decided real-world effects.

Some of the effects of unrestrained belief can be amusing.

For instance, after five centuries of being told by Protestant polemicists that we “Romanists” do not trust the saving grace of Jesus Christ and ignorantly seek salvation by the works of the law, it is a weird thing for a Catholic to see the spectacle of kooky apocalyptic Protestants eagerly excited about the birth of red heifers because this will (they hope) be the prelude to rebuilding the Temple of Solomon and the re-institution of the Mosaic sacrificial system. Just how that Temple will be rebuilt when the Dome of the Rock is situated on the site of the Temple is not quite as clearly worked out.

Which brings me to something just as kooky, but less amusing.

Recently, James Dobson, a leading Evangelical and a usually sensible man, hosted on his show one Joel Rosenberg, author of something called Epicenter: Why Current Rumblings in the Middle East Will Change Your Future. Rosenberg claims to know “what the Bible says” about what is happening in the Mideast and is not shy about making “predictions regarding the fate of the Middle East regarding issues such as Iran’s nuclear threats against Israel, the arms race and ultimately ... Armageddon.” Here’s a snippet:

Dobson: “Well, Joel, let’s explain to everybody how Ezekiel 38 turns out, because Israel is about to be attacked, and a huge number of troops from Russia and Iran are coming toward Israel to destroy it, and what happens?”

Rosenberg: “Well, God is going to move. You won’t find in the Scriptures that the United States is coming to rescue Israel or the European Union, but God says he is going to supernaturally intervene — we’re talking about fire from heaven, a massive earthquake, diseases spreading through the enemy forces. It is going to be such a clear judgment against the enemies of Israel that Ezekiel 39 says that it will take seven months to bury all the bodies of the slain enemies of Israel. “

Such standard-issue Evangelical prophetic cocksureness is an excellent example of why a magisterium is so useful and necessary.

Not only does the magisterium help us know what is essential to the faith, it also helps us remain free of what is unessential. For the various species of Protestantism, in addition to denying real biblical truths such as the Real Presence or infant baptism, also have a tendency to invent “biblical truths” that do not exist and impose them by means of a sort of cultural pressure via charismatic preachers with pet theories who, in their own sphere, are granted an infallibility the Pope could never dream of.

Now, a Catholic is quite free to have a kooky private reading of Ezekiel 38-39 as a prophecy of the “coming resurgent Soviet Union” and its alliance with Muslims, communist Chinese or whoever, all in a vast Cecil B. DeMille battle against Israel. The Church has all sorts of room for eccentrics, and everybody needs a hobby.

But a Catholic is not free to go around telling everybody that “this is the clear teaching of the Bible” and demand it be believed. For the fact is, this kooky theory is emphatically not the clear teaching of the Bible, nor does it have any sanction whatsoever from the Church, the tradition, the Fathers, the councils or the popes. It is a pure novelty we can and should ignore.

What we should not ignore is Rosenberg’s claim that, “Given the events going on in our world today, people at the Pentagon, people at the CIA, people at the White House are asking to sit down and talk about these issues, to understand the Biblical perspective, because it is uncanny what is happening out there and it deserves some study.”

I suspect that Rosenberg is exaggerating his clout with the big cheeses in DC. I doubt that the Pentagon’s intel meetings are dominated by exegeses of Ezekiel 38.

But I do think it matters if a significant portion of the American polity drinks in such bizarre theories as if they were God’s revealed Truth.

Ideas have consequences, especially crazy ones. Most crazy ideas do no harm.

Crazy ideas about the Middle East, backed by the force of arms, stand a better than average chance of killing millions.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: bible; catholic; christianity; magisterium; scripture
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To: Petronski

Sorry.

But I don’t find that mind-reading very accurate.

I don’t hate much of anything . . . except maybe Shrillery’s traitorousness and seemingly demonized value system.

I have a LOT of fondness for many RC’s—most I’ve met by far.

I’m not particularly fond of -isms of any flavor. I’m not even fond of Pentecostalism.

Pretending that I’m singling out RC’s for unique and special hatred or even rejection or even unusually awful distaste for their theological distinctives

is just NOT true.

It’s not my heart.
It’s not my spirit.
It’s not my mind.
It’s not my attitude.

I think virtually any . . . bureaucratic, even slightly older, large RELIGIOUS organization tends to have AT LEAST as many destructive hazards to it as benefits.

I feel that way about ALL denominations. Pretending I’m singling out RC’s unfairly on such matters is SIMPLY NOT TRUE. And, it leaves many looking like cry babies. I think you are, as a group, much better than that. I hate to see that kind of pettiness tarnish your image. It’s not necessary.

The religion forum . . . by nature and necessity is not the romper room. The issues, dynamics, emotions etc. are significant on all sides. We are NOT AT ALL inclined to avoid the word “no” to avoid wounding little Johnny’s self esteem, ego, personhood. We try, increasingly, I think, to be loving and kind. But not mealy mouthed wimpy dialogers with nothing very assertive or forceful to say about issues and values central to our core beings and reasons for existing.


41 posted on 06/10/2007 10:39:11 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Religion Moderator

Perhaps instead of groups . . .

ALWAYS, NEVER . . .

“ALL OR NOTHING” language would be the criteria of prohibition.

Perhaps unless solid research had proved otherwise?

Thanks tons for your faithful work trying to keep us yeahoos within some reasonable bounds.

Prayers for you and yours.


42 posted on 06/10/2007 10:42:44 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Religion Moderator

I’m just thinking attacks on a group are often a catalyst for personal attacks.


43 posted on 06/10/2007 10:44:02 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: Pyro7480
People can criticize beliefs all they want, but when they start saying “Catholic are this way,” and “Evangelicals always do such and such,” that’s crossing a line.

I guess if you want to just end all debate on the religion forum, that would work.

Why do you participate in these forums if you can't stand hearing people level criticism at your theology?

Just stay on the caucus threads and you should be insulated from any criticism.

44 posted on 06/10/2007 10:51:42 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: Pyro7480; Religion Moderator

I think it would be very difficult to operationally define

a

prohibited

attack on a group.

Folks with thin skins and chips on their shoulders IN ALL DENOMINATIONAL GROUPS will be inclined to construe all manner of forceful statements as attacks on “the most holy and sanctified group”—THEIRS—of course.

ALL OR NOTHING language like “ALWAYS” “NEVER” ETC. would be a LOT easier to monitor, I’d think.

I suppose one could use those words in conjunction with groups as the criteria.

But isn’t that . . . I don’t know . . . taking the monkey bars out of the playground so Johnny won’t scuff his knees or get a bruised something or other?

Personal attacks . . . We are all big enough to know what a specifically personal, personhood attack is. And, avoiding “You” “Your” etc. words is a huge safety, help.

The request somewhat seems to be saying . . . in effect . . .

we hereon are not big enough to hear something startlingly negative about our sacred group without going ballistic, foaming at the mouth and flailing about with knives and arrows.

Hello? Are we THAT pathetic, immature, insecure, brittle, thin skinned???

God help us when the END TIMES REALLY get going in full force. Kid gloves and 4” foam carpet pads and white gloves everywhere will NOT be the order of the day.

I have not attacked RC-ism tonight. I’ve attacked a human tendency—especially a human group tendency of a particular kind of organized group IN ALL DENOMINATIONS. Yet the reaction on the part of a very few has been AS THOUGH I’d attacked the Virgin Mary in the flesh in her eyeballs with a red hot poker!

Why such a disconnect from the reality? That’s NOT REALLY my doing.

On a personal level, I’m saddened by the whole episode. But I can’t take responsibility for the utter nonsense. At some point, I have to leave others their SHARE of responsibility.

Could I have been more loving? I don’t know. Usually there’s always some way to have been a BIT more loving. But I doubt that I could have said anything close to what was true and important for me to say—without triggering at least a similar response from some folks. That may be sad. But I don’t know HOW MUCH of that is my responsibility.

I’m not exactly a new and novel entity hereon. Folks are welcome to take everything I say with a grain of salt. My motives and even my heart are pretty easily discernable by most folks with a microscopic shred of discernment and perceptiveness.

In some ways, I’m . . . me . . . enough . . . a unique, bird of rare plumage, . . . or as my relatives might say—strange—enough . . . that it’s somewhat easy for a variety of folks to be annoyed to irritated just because I’m breathing and with 1,000 feet of them. Sorry about that.

And, I’ve tried to wash behind my ears better and use mints . . . but at some point, nothing will ever be enough for some people. And I cannot remake myself every 30 seconds into someone else’s image of how I OUGHT to be times even a dozen such individuals’ expectations. Tried that long ago. Talk about CRAZY!

Rolling with the punches without taking personal offense is a sign of emotional, psychological AND spiritual maturity. Is it too much to ask that we behave above a 2-4 year old level on such issues?

Just pondering and thinking out loud . . .

Thanks to you both for your thoughtful inputs.


45 posted on 06/10/2007 11:03:21 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: P-Marlowe
I guess if you want to just end all debate on the religion forum, that would work. Why do you participate in these forums if you can't stand hearing people level criticism at your theology?

Did you even read what I said? I said beliefs. That is the same as theology. Do you think you have a need to attack groups, instead of their beliefs?

46 posted on 06/10/2007 11:04:32 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: Quix
ALL OR NOTHING language like “ALWAYS” “NEVER” ETC. would be a LOT easier to monitor, I’d think.

Exactly.

47 posted on 06/10/2007 11:05:48 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: P-Marlowe

Good points . . .

Though . . . psychologically . . . maybe emotionally . . .

sometimes . . . when we are feeling brittle or gritchy . . . we sort of tend, as humans . . . to go

HUNTING FOR OFFENSE

and, then, of course, to 100% blame the other person.

I don’t think moderators can prevent that. Maybe they can prevent certain over the line expressions of that phenomenon.

But you make an excellent point.

Thx.

BTW, reality check here.

P-Marlowe, we’ve said some strong things at one another the last 6 months, IIRC.

But I still care for you deeply and respect you and your beliefs greatly. Haven’t you been aware of that, regardless?

And, I have at least the fantasy that you respect at least SOMETHING about me. Isn’t that true?

I don’t think it’s all that hard, really.


48 posted on 06/10/2007 11:07:14 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Pyro7480
Do you think you have a need to attack groups, instead of their beliefs?

Groups have beliefs. If we criticize the beliefs, we are criticizing the group and vice versa.

Feel free to criticize my beliefs and my groups. It doesn't bother me at all. It is through the discussion of these issues that we can come to the truth. Unless, of course, someone else has already done the thinking for you.

49 posted on 06/10/2007 11:08:03 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe

Unless, of course, someone else has already done the thinking for you.

= = =

LAUGHING AND GRINNING . . .

There you go again . . . attacking that sacred group!

But, truly, Marlowe, that sort of DEFERRING to loftier RELIGIOUS folk—with titles and positions and formal roles . . .that kind of thinking goes on in all denominational—even all congregations older than 1.5-3 years, imho.


50 posted on 06/10/2007 11:12:28 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Quix
P-Marlowe, we’ve said some strong things at one another the last 6 months, IIRC.

It goes with the territory.

But I still care for you deeply and respect you and your beliefs greatly. Haven’t you been aware of that, regardless?

Certainly

And, I have at least the fantasy that you respect at least SOMETHING about me. Isn’t that true?

Just a little bit. :-)


51 posted on 06/10/2007 11:13:43 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe
Unless, of course, someone else has already done the thinking for you.

Can't help to get a dig in, can you?

52 posted on 06/10/2007 11:16:28 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: P-Marlowe

LOL WHAT A SONG! Thx.

However . . . must get the necessary obligatory

HARUMPH

out of the way!

A little bit! sheesh!

See if I ever kiss your toes again. Oh, that’s right, I never did.

Wash your feet again?

Actually, that I would do. Humbled and honored to do so.


53 posted on 06/10/2007 11:17:10 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Quix

Don’t encourage him.


54 posted on 06/10/2007 11:17:18 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: P-Marlowe; Pyro7480

It looks to me like there are certain posters on the forum who are opportunists. They consistently show up on threads where there is a chance to be a protagonist.

It doesn’t seem to be a discussion or debate that they have in mind. It’s warfare. It’s a relentless “gotcha” attitude. I’m willing to bet that it doesn’t leave a good impression on the lurkers—who are probably outnumbering the posters any day.

What you are proposing are two concepts:
1) Stay off the forum if you don’t like criticisms of your particular faith
2) thereby admitting that you can’t take the heat and need to be insulated from it.

These two propositions overlook the fact that anyone would want to come to the defense of their faith if it’s being held in contempt ipso facto. It also falsely takes the position that if one doesn’t like the contemptuous approach, that they’re not capable of reasoned debate.

In other words, if you don’t like seeing your faith maligned, get out.

It’s for sure that this approach has built-in trouble markers—for everyone.


55 posted on 06/10/2007 11:18:44 PM PDT by Running On Empty (1)
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To: Pyro7480

In my experience . . .

it doesn’t matter whether you encourage Marlowe or not.

He’s still going to be Marlowe. Thankfully.

And God is not finished with any of us yet.


56 posted on 06/10/2007 11:18:54 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Running On Empty

imho,

Part of the problem, however, is that

contemptuousness

like beauty

is in the eye, mind, heart, insecurities

of the beholder.


57 posted on 06/10/2007 11:20:50 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Quix

“God is not finished with any of us yet”

...that we know of. He hasn’t let us know for sure.


58 posted on 06/10/2007 11:21:43 PM PDT by Running On Empty (1)
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To: Quix
But, truly, Marlowe, that sort of DEFERRING to loftier RELIGIOUS folk—with titles and positions and formal roles . . .that kind of thinking goes on in all denominational—even all congregations older than 1.5-3 years, imho.

If a protestant disagrees with those higher powers, then he can always switch Churches. If a Catholic disagrees with the Magisterium, he goes to hell.

We protestants are free to criticize our own churches and everyone else's. Catholics are limited to criticizing everyone else's. As shown by the article above, they are pretty adept at it. Refusing, despite all biblical evidence, to see the heresy in their own church, but eager to point out any perceived heresy in every other church.

But I digress.

59 posted on 06/10/2007 11:23:21 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: Quix

Yes, in your humble opinion.

That’s all it is.


60 posted on 06/10/2007 11:23:31 PM PDT by Running On Empty (1)
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