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Skip to comments.The ABSOLUTE Primacy of Christ
Posted on 06/13/2007 4:39:26 AM PDT by fr maximilian mary
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It is at this point (unless you are the Pope and have spoken ex-cathedra) nothing more than Catholic speculation and Marian fanaticism. The Magisterium has not officially spoken. AFAIK, you may still safely think for yourself on this one.
There clearly is a movement to make it dogma. Perhaps you are a member of that heretical and blasphemous movement. Perhaps not.
Welcome to Free Republic.
Maybe if you're a politician or a pundit.
The Church doesn't leave its "options open". It studies then it pronounces.
Two hundred years ago, there was no dogma of the Immaculate Conception nor Assumption. The Church was not "leaving its options open." These matters were being carefully studied. Then came a point when that process was complete and the dogmas were pronounced. For ever. No "options".
It will be the same with any new dogma, should it ever arise.
Hmm... So the roman catholic church studies for hundreds, even thousands of years, and then pronounces a doctrine.
Seems to me that everything God wanted us to know was given by the Lord to the Apostles (via the Holy Spirit), recorded by the pens of the NT writers (inspired via the Holy Spirit), and placed in the hands of the churches (preserved via the Holy Spirit). All before the last Apostle died.
Unless one of the Apostle is still living, unbeknownst to the world, I’m hard-pressed to figure out where new enlightenment will originate.
LOLOL!!! Don't forget the Catholics have been busy writing a bunch of articles for the last 100 years so they can say they're going by the traditions of the fathers.
Wow! The implications of the internet age... Do you realize that someday the RCC posters here on Free Republic may very well be quoted as "church fathers"? That means that we could be conversing with living legends; the rock stars of catholicism in a networked world!
From now on, I'll take more seriously my irreverent posts that knock the legs out of RCC doctrine with Biblical Truth.
I can just picture a group of RCC's gathered around a statue of St. Marshmallow.
Blessed St. Marshmallow, patron of all things gooey, pray for us.
ping to 47
Now if we could find two other catholic freepers with user IDs “graham cracker” and “chocolate”, we could enshrine a triumvirate to ensure good smores at our next campout.
Welcome to FR, Dan.
Actually it's already a doctrine of the Church and Our Lady already is the Mother of All Peoples which has the three aspects of Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix of all graces, and Advocate.
May we quote you on that? Various RCs on the forum dispute this claim when Protestants make the same statement.
Eighteen hundred years to develop one dogma?!?
And you don't see a problem with that?
It reminds me of Spielberg's ludicrous movie, "A.I." --
"Two thousand years later..."
That's a mighty preposterous stage direction.
Christ must be so proud of your sneering mockery of Catholics.
Lest you think that this is something novel, consider the dogma of the Holy Trinity. During the first centuries the Church sought to clarify her Trinitarian faith, both to deepen her own understanding of the faith and to defend it against the errors that were deforming it. This clarification was the work of the early councils, aided by the theological work of the Church Fathers and sustained by the Christian people's sense of the faith.
The Church is a living organism and this process did not cease with the Council of Ephesus or Nicea. It continues today.
It is as explicit as God wants it to be.
The doctrine of the Trinity was espoused from the early church, certainly from the fifth century on according to the Nicene Creed.
Most importantly, the doctrine of the Trinity is founded on Scripture.
Unlike the Assumption of Mary which is nowhere in Scripture and remains strictly errant speculation.
In fact, Scripture speaks against anyone deserving of our prayers but God. There is only one rock higher than you and I -- Jesus Christ.
"From the end of the earth will I cry unto thee, when my heart is overwhelmed: lead me to the rock that is higher than I." -- Psalm 61:2
Just for the record, there is a difference between a doctrine and a dogma. Dogma is solemnly defined by a Synod of Bishops with the approval of the Pope or can be defined by the Pope ex cathedra. Danny stated that Marian mediation and coredemption is a doctrine, not a dogma. So he's not claiming to be Pope :)
As noted above, this is a highly debated question amongst Catholic theologians. Like Danny, I would argue that it is Catholic doctrine (not dogma). See this article of Msgr. Gherardini for a brief explanation of why.
It's not a "new" doctrine. St. Irenaeus (died 202) says that Mary, as the New Eve, became the "cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race... the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith." (Against Heresies, 3:22:4)
Pope Benedict XV wrote, "To such extent did she [Mary] suffer and almost die with her suffering and dying Son; to such extent did she surrender her maternal rights over her Son for mans salvation, and immolated Him insofar as she could in order to appease the justice of God, that we may rightly say she redeemed the human race together with Christ (Pope Benedict XV, Inter Sodalicia, 1918 A.D.).[the italics are mine]
At any rate, this discussion has been well-developed, as P-Marlowe noted, at this post.
God bless you all...
“He thinks that God became a trinity and that the trinity has not always existed.”
Don’t be a prole. God only acts in time when he acts in the universe subject to time. Clearly willing for God is an eternal, timeless, event which we can only speak of in terms that connote time. Your argument is a strawman and you know it.
Where to begin to point out the errors in that sentence?
1) Where does Scripture say Mary "almost died with Christ?"
2) Where does Scripture say Mary "surrendered her maternal rights" (whatever that means)?
3) Where does Scripture say Mary "immolated" Christ?
4) And finaly, saving the most offensive for last, where in Scripture does it say Mary "redeemed the human race together with Christ?"
Exactly. St. Paul tells us that Jesus Christ is "the firstborn of every creature" (Col. 1:15) and that "All things have been created through and unto Him, and He is before all creatures, and in Him all things hold together." (Col. 1:16-17). Jesus is the "firstborn", not chronologically, but in God's eternal plan! God willed the Incarnation first and then created us "through and unto Him". Because of sin Jesus Christ redeemed us, but sin or no sin He is the "one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." (1 Tim. 2:5).
There are no errors in that sentence. But you are asking me to respond using Scripture alone, and that is an error. Where in the Scripture does it say "the Bible alone" is the source of Divine Revelation?
And where did we get the Scriptures from?
Statements like St. Irenaeus and Pope Benedict XV are based on the Word of God as passed on to us through both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.
Grace and peace be with you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ...
True. Which is not the same as saying that we ourselves have reached a complete and full understanding of Revelation. Such a claim would be presumption and a manifestation of pride.
Rather, our understanding of that Revelation continues to develop. This in fact, is a sign of God's love. Thanks to the assistance of the Holy Spirit, the understanding of both the realities and the words of the heritage of faith is able to grow in the life of the Church. This enables the Church to penetrate the mystery of Revelation ever more deeply.
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