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The ABSOLUTE Primacy of Christ
Irish-Catholic and Dangerous ^ | April 12, 2007 | Danny Garland, Jr.

Posted on 06/13/2007 4:39:26 AM PDT by fr maximilian mary

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To: marshmallow; pjr12345; P-Marlowe; 1000 silverlings
Two hundred years ago, there was no dogma of the Immaculate Conception nor Assumption. The Church was not "leaving its options open." These matters were being carefully studied. Then came a point when that process was complete and the dogmas were pronounced. For ever.

Eighteen hundred years to develop one dogma?!?

And you don't see a problem with that?

It reminds me of Spielberg's ludicrous movie, "A.I." --

"Two thousand years later..."

That's a mighty preposterous stage direction.

51 posted on 06/13/2007 6:22:05 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: pjr12345; HarleyD

Christ must be so proud of your sneering mockery of Catholics.


52 posted on 06/13/2007 6:25:45 PM PDT by Petronski (imwithfred.com)
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To: pjr12345; Dr. Eckleburg
You are correct in stating that Revelation ceased with the death of the last Apostle. Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries. This is precisely what has happened with the Immaculate Conception and Assumption, for instance.

Lest you think that this is something novel, consider the dogma of the Holy Trinity. During the first centuries the Church sought to clarify her Trinitarian faith, both to deepen her own understanding of the faith and to defend it against the errors that were deforming it. This clarification was the work of the early councils, aided by the theological work of the Church Fathers and sustained by the Christian people's sense of the faith.

The Church is a living organism and this process did not cease with the Council of Ephesus or Nicea. It continues today.

53 posted on 06/13/2007 6:41:49 PM PDT by marshmallow
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To: marshmallow; pjr12345; P-Marlowe; 1000 silverlings
Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit

It is as explicit as God wants it to be.

The doctrine of the Trinity was espoused from the early church, certainly from the fifth century on according to the Nicene Creed.

Most importantly, the doctrine of the Trinity is founded on Scripture.

Unlike the Assumption of Mary which is nowhere in Scripture and remains strictly errant speculation.

In fact, Scripture speaks against anyone deserving of our prayers but God. There is only one rock higher than you and I -- Jesus Christ.

"From the end of the earth will I cry unto thee, when my heart is overwhelmed: lead me to the rock that is higher than I." -- Psalm 61:2

54 posted on 06/13/2007 7:03:19 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; P-Marlowe; Danny Garland Jr.; pjr12345; ArrogantBustard
First of all, welcome to FR Danny Garland Jr.! (And just in time too :-} )

Just for the record, there is a difference between a doctrine and a dogma. Dogma is solemnly defined by a Synod of Bishops with the approval of the Pope or can be defined by the Pope ex cathedra. Danny stated that Marian mediation and coredemption is a doctrine, not a dogma. So he's not claiming to be Pope :)

As noted above, this is a highly debated question amongst Catholic theologians. Like Danny, I would argue that it is Catholic doctrine (not dogma). See this article of Msgr. Gherardini for a brief explanation of why.

It's not a "new" doctrine. St. Irenaeus (died 202) says that Mary, as the New Eve, became the "cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race... the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith." (Against Heresies, 3:22:4)

Pope Benedict XV wrote, "To such extent did she [Mary] suffer and almost die with her suffering and dying Son; to such extent did she surrender her maternal rights over her Son for man’s salvation, and immolated Him — insofar as she could — in order to appease the justice of God, that we may rightly say she redeemed the human race together with Christ” (Pope Benedict XV, Inter Sodalicia, 1918 A.D.).[the italics are mine]

At any rate, this discussion has been well-developed, as P-Marlowe noted, at this post.

God bless you all...

55 posted on 06/13/2007 7:31:27 PM PDT by fr maximilian mary ("Imitate Jesus, love Mary as your Mother." Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: P-Marlowe

“He thinks that God became a trinity and that the trinity has not always existed.”

Don’t be a prole. God only acts in time when he acts in the universe subject to time. Clearly willing for God is an eternal, timeless, event which we can only speak of in terms that connote time. Your argument is a strawman and you know it.


56 posted on 06/13/2007 7:37:46 PM PDT by WriteOn (Truth)
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To: fr maximilian mary; P-Marlowe; Quix; 1000 silverlings; blue-duncan; pjr12345; ears_to_hear; ...
To such extent did she [Mary] suffer and almost die with her suffering and dying Son; to such extent did she surrender her maternal rights over her Son for man's salvation, and immolated Him — insofar as she could — in order to appease the justice of God, that we may rightly say she redeemed the human race together with Christ" (Pope Benedict XV, Inter Sodalicia, 1918 A.D.)

Where to begin to point out the errors in that sentence?

1) Where does Scripture say Mary "almost died with Christ?"

2) Where does Scripture say Mary "surrendered her maternal rights" (whatever that means)?

3) Where does Scripture say Mary "immolated" Christ?

4) And finaly, saving the most offensive for last, where in Scripture does it say Mary "redeemed the human race together with Christ?"

57 posted on 06/13/2007 7:40:51 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: ArrogantBustard; Danny Garland Jr.; Alex Murphy; Pyro7480
The real thesis of this article is quite interesting ... that the Incarntaion was planned all along, regardless of what Man might do. It has to be that way, of course ... otherwise by sinning Adam would have "forced God's hand". That's problematic to say the least.

Exactly. St. Paul tells us that Jesus Christ is "the firstborn of every creature" (Col. 1:15) and that "All things have been created through and unto Him, and He is before all creatures, and in Him all things hold together." (Col. 1:16-17). Jesus is the "firstborn", not chronologically, but in God's eternal plan! God willed the Incarnation first and then created us "through and unto Him". Because of sin Jesus Christ redeemed us, but sin or no sin He is the "one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." (1 Tim. 2:5).

Good night...

58 posted on 06/13/2007 7:43:05 PM PDT by fr maximilian mary ("Imitate Jesus, love Mary as your Mother." Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Praised be Jesus Christ!

There are no errors in that sentence. But you are asking me to respond using Scripture alone, and that is an error. Where in the Scripture does it say "the Bible alone" is the source of Divine Revelation?

And where did we get the Scriptures from?

Statements like St. Irenaeus and Pope Benedict XV are based on the Word of God as passed on to us through both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

Grace and peace be with you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ...

59 posted on 06/13/2007 8:02:04 PM PDT by fr maximilian mary ("Imitate Jesus, love Mary as your Mother." Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
It is as explicit as God wants it to be.

True. Which is not the same as saying that we ourselves have reached a complete and full understanding of Revelation. Such a claim would be presumption and a manifestation of pride.

Rather, our understanding of that Revelation continues to develop. This in fact, is a sign of God's love. Thanks to the assistance of the Holy Spirit, the understanding of both the realities and the words of the heritage of faith is able to grow in the life of the Church. This enables the Church to penetrate the mystery of Revelation ever more deeply.

60 posted on 06/13/2007 8:20:28 PM PDT by marshmallow
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

It seems many people are confusing the terms “doctrine” and “dogma.” Our Lady’s maternal mediation (Mother of All Peoples with its three aspects) is an official doctrine of the Church. It is not yet a dogma. It is valid to debate whether it should or should not be a dogma, but one cannot debate whether it is already a doctrine of the Catholic Church.

Also, to the other posters,
the title “Co-Redemptrix” does not mean that Mary is a goddess or is above Christ or is even equal to Christ. The “co” comes from Latin which means “with and under.” There is no hint at equality. The issue of “Co” meaning “equal to” is a faulty english understanding of the prefix. All of the virtues, grace, and privileges of Mary come from Christ. The title “Co-redemptrix” means literally “the woman with the Redeemer.”
This is not a new concept. It is present (called recirculation) in the Fathers of the Churc who said that as sin entered the world through a man, a woman, and a tree, so the act of redemption is accomplished by a Man(Christ), a Woman(Mary), and a Tree(the Cross).

God did not need Mary to enact our redemption, but he chose her from all eternity to be Mediatrix and Co-redemptrix with Christ, the Mediator and Redeemer.

God Bless.


61 posted on 06/13/2007 8:22:30 PM PDT by Danny Garland Jr. (Ad Jesum per Mariam)
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To: fr maximilian mary; Dr. Eckleburg; P-Marlowe; Quix; pjr12345

” St. Paul tells us that Jesus Christ is “the firstborn of every creature” (Col. 1:15) and that “All things have been created through and unto Him, and He is before all creatures (including Mary), and in Him all things hold together.” (Col. 1:16-17)”

You forgot the next verse that says He is the redeemer and there is no “co-redemptrix” for He has the preeminence in all things and He shares His glory with no one.
Rev 5:9, “And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;” There is no mention of Mary having anything to do with the redemption of fallen man.

18. “And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”


62 posted on 06/13/2007 8:27:10 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: fr maximilian mary
Welcome to FR, father (from one of your evangelical friends).

By the way, the church I attend is housed in a former Franciscan college, Duns Scotus of Southfield, Michigan.


63 posted on 06/13/2007 8:28:43 PM PDT by Larry Lucido (Duncan Hunter 2008 (or Fred Thompson if he ever makes up his mind))
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To: Danny Garland Jr.

Same welcome to you as in my post #63.


64 posted on 06/13/2007 8:33:33 PM PDT by Larry Lucido (Duncan Hunter 2008 (or Fred Thompson if he ever makes up his mind))
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To: Danny Garland Jr.

Where was this doctrine taught?


65 posted on 06/13/2007 8:37:13 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: Danny Garland Jr.; Pyro7480; fr maximilian mary
Our Lady’s maternal mediation (Mother of All Peoples with its three aspects) is an official doctrine of the Church.

Say what?

Our Lady's maternal mediation I know about but I've seldom heard the term "Mother of All Peoples". Until I did a Google search. I got back one hit. It leads to a website entitled Mother of All Peoples. The list of contributors uncludes a "Fr. Maximillian Mary Dean", whom I presume is the very same priest who is here present.

Seriously, guys.

The site says that you're pressing for the proclamation of a 5th Marian dogma, i.e. that named above. That's nice. However, let's be clear. You guys are pushing the envelope here. You're using the terms "Mother of All Peoples" synonomously with Our Lady's maternal mediation. That's a little naughty. I believe this term has its origin in the "Virgin of All Nations" apparitions.

We're all on board with the mediatory powers of the Blessed Mother but the Mother of All Peoples/5th dogma angle is your personal crusade, right?

66 posted on 06/13/2007 9:42:17 PM PDT by marshmallow
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To: marshmallow
it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries

READ: error creeps in over time.

67 posted on 06/13/2007 9:51:32 PM PDT by pjr12345 (O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Romans 7:24)
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To: pjr12345
READ: error creeps in over time.

Aint that the truth.

Not by the Catholic Church, however.

The alphabet soup of so called Bible-based churches, takes care of that. Irony of ironies.

If God is one, then truth must be one. Ergo, huge numbers of churches are teaching error diverging, as they do, on their understanding of Scripture.

68 posted on 06/13/2007 10:02:11 PM PDT by marshmallow
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To: marshmallow

Extra-Biblical Doctrine. Lemmings. Cliff. Rocks below.


69 posted on 06/13/2007 10:10:08 PM PDT by pjr12345 (O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Romans 7:24)
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To: blue-duncan

Thanks.

This thread will likely have to wait until tomorrow or tomorrow night for much from me.

Looks interesting.


70 posted on 06/13/2007 10:22:09 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: ArrogantBustard; pjr12345

38. From these considerations, the proof develops on these lines: if Mary, in taking an active part in the work of salvation, was, by God’s design, associated with Jesus Christ, the source of salvation itself, in a manner comparable to that in which Eve was associated with Adam, the source of death, so that it may be stated that the work of our salvation was accomplished by a kind of “recapitulation,”[49] in which a virgin was instrumental in the salvation of the human race, just as a virgin had been closely associated with its death; if, moreover, it can likewise be stated that this glorious Lady had been chosen Mother of Christ “in order that she might become a partner in the redemption of the human race”;[50] and if, in truth, “it was she who, free of the stain of actual and original sin, and ever most closely bound to her Son, on Golgotha offered that Son to the Eternal Father together with the complete sacrifice of her maternal rights and maternal love, like a new Eve, for all the sons of Adam, stained as they were by his lamentable fall,”[51] then it may be legitimately concluded that as Christ, the new Adam, must be called a King not merely because He is Son of God, but also because He is our Redeemer, so, analogously, the Most Blessed Virgin is queen not only because she is Mother of God, but also because, as the new Eve, she was associated with the new Adam.

http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_pi12ac.htm


71 posted on 06/13/2007 10:25:25 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration (We must beat the Democrats or the country will be ruined! - Lincoln)
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To: fortheDeclaration
if Mary... was... associated with Jesus Christ... in a manner comparable to that in which Eve was associated with Adam,

That's just creepy.

72 posted on 06/13/2007 10:29:02 PM PDT by pjr12345 (O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Romans 7:24)
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To: pjr12345
if Mary... was... associated with Jesus Christ... in a manner comparable to that in which Eve was associated with Adam, That's just creepy.

That is what I thought.

It sounds incestous.

Since Mary is credited with 'giving' Christ for the sacrifice, doesn't this make her equal to the Father (Jn.3:16)?

73 posted on 06/13/2007 10:34:44 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration (We must beat the Democrats or the country will be ruined! - Lincoln)
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To: pjr12345; fortheDeclaration
That's just creepy.

Good word. All this Mary worship and adoration and veneration and exaltation is just plain creepy.

74 posted on 06/13/2007 10:37:31 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: fr maximilian mary; Quix; blue-duncan; P-Marlowe; HarleyD; pjr12345; 1000 silverlings; ...
Statements like St. Irenaeus and Pope Benedict XV are based on the Word of God as passed on to us through both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

As I asked and you responded, where in Scripture are any of the following "facts" found, per Benedict's assertions?

1) Mary "almost died with Christ."

2) Mary "surrendered her maternal rights" (whatever that means).

3) Mary "immolated" Christ.

4) Mary "redeemed the human race together with Christ."

Frankly, these four points don't even sound like English. Mary "immolated" Christ? What in the world does that mean?

75 posted on 06/14/2007 12:29:27 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Larry Lucido
Peace in the Lord! Thanks for the welcome and the photo. Our friary is a bit more modest since we built it with the help of many volunteers. God bless you and please say a prayer for me. Thank you.
76 posted on 06/14/2007 5:11:05 AM PDT by fr maximilian mary ("Imitate Jesus, love Mary as your Mother." Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Excellent points.

Thanks.


77 posted on 06/14/2007 5:12:11 AM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: P-Marlowe

And for far too many . . .

deadly.


78 posted on 06/14/2007 5:12:53 AM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
May the Lord give you His peace.

My point in posting the quotes of St. Irenaeus and Pope Benedict XV and the article of Msgr. Gherardini was to show, from the Catholic perspective, that Marian mediation is not a dogma, but it is rooted in Sacred Tradition and is considered by many as Catholic doctrine. In other words, Saints, Popes, Cardinals, theologians, and a sinner like me aren't just inventing something as we go along. The Church has always seen Mary as the New Eve cooperating with and under her Divine Son in the work of our salvation.

It seems that you do not accept Sacred Tradition as part of the Deposit of the Faith, so defending Pope Benedict XV's statement using the Scripture would end up being your interpretation of the Scripture versus mine.

Besides, I put up this thread with hopes of discussing the absolute primacy of Christ. I have already spent a lot of time defending these prerogatives of Mary in that previous thread Cardinals, Bishops, Theologians and Lay Apologists Speak-up for Marian Coredemption

God bless you and please say a prayer for me. Thank you...

79 posted on 06/14/2007 5:18:50 AM PDT by fr maximilian mary ("Imitate Jesus, love Mary as your Mother." Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: blue-duncan
Peace and blessings!

As I mentioned to Dr. Eckleburg, I have already spent a lot of time defending these prerogatives of Mary in that previous thread Cardinals, Bishops, Theologians and Lay Apologists Speak-up for Marian Coredemption

In trying to be brief, I left out a lot of verses. Colossians 1:12-20 as a whole indicates the absolute primacy of Christ. It is important first to establish the absolute preeminence of Christ; Mary's role in the work of Christ is another discussion altogether.

The point that Bl. John Duns Scotus made is that even if man had not sinned God would have become incarnate just the same. Sin or no sin, Christ was set up by God as the King of kings, the Alpha and Omega. Now that's worth discussing.

Blessed day in the Lord...

80 posted on 06/14/2007 5:32:20 AM PDT by fr maximilian mary ("Imitate Jesus, love Mary as your Mother." Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: marshmallow
Ave Maria!

Really, it's not a personal crusade. Popes and Saints alike (not to mention Cardinals and Theologians)have called her Mediatrix and Coredemptrix. Cardinal Toppo with 4 other Cardinals and 50 Bishops recently put the accent on the Virgin Mary as Spiritual Mother. Vox Populi Maria Mediatrici, in particular Dr. Mark Miravalle, explain the titles with an emphasis on her maternal role: Coredemptrix—the Mother suffering, viz. the fruitful birth pangs in bringing forth the Church with and under her Crucified Son; Mediatrix—the Mother nourishing her children; Advocate—the Mother pleading their cause. So Danny is summing it all up with the title "Mother of All Peoples". But quite aside from any private revelation, she has always been considered our spiritual Mother. At any rate, for more on this topic see the pings I posted above to the other thread.

God bless...

81 posted on 06/14/2007 5:41:46 AM PDT by fr maximilian mary ("Imitate Jesus, love Mary as your Mother." Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Danny Garland Jr.; pjr12345; P-Marlowe; HarleyD; 1000 silverlings; ears_to_hear
May we quote you on that? Various RCs on the forum dispute this claim when Protestants make the same statement.

You could quote the Catechism Of The Catholic Church.

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."

82 posted on 06/14/2007 9:08:39 AM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: P-Marlowe

Then let’s talk about the primacy of Christ and bow down and worship Him! This thread is not about “Mary worship”, but about Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today and forever. Amen.

God bless...


83 posted on 06/14/2007 9:17:12 AM PDT by fr maximilian mary ("Imitate Jesus, love Mary as your Mother." Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: OLD REGGIE; Dr. Eckleburg; Danny Garland Jr.; P-Marlowe; HarleyD; 1000 silverlings; ears_to_hear
You could quote the Catechism Of The Catholic Church.

I think I've solved my dilemma

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1848046/posts?page=522#522

Hows 'bout we call it the heathen catholic church?

84 posted on 06/14/2007 9:18:23 AM PDT by pjr12345 (O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Romans 7:24)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; P-Marlowe; HarleyD; ears_to_hear

We can see from recent research that Mary, by offering up Christ as “the sacrificial victim” has actually usurped the role of the Father in the Plan of Salvation. Where they go from there.. why to the moon I guess Alice


85 posted on 06/14/2007 10:59:25 AM PDT by 1000 silverlings (Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.)
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To: fortheDeclaration
Since Mary is credited with 'giving' Christ for the sacrifice, doesn't this make her equal to the Father (Jn.3:16)?

My thoughts exactly. Not only is she the mother of God, she is God. They should just admit it

86 posted on 06/14/2007 11:02:59 AM PDT by 1000 silverlings (Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.)
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To: OLD REGGIE; 1000 silverlings; HarleyD; pjr12345; P-Marlowe; blue-duncan; ears_to_hear; ...
Thanks for that info from the RCC catechism. It's difficult to keep up with all the changing perspectives -- spoken, written, preached. It's never clear what Rome means at any given time.

Now we're told there's a significant difference in meaning between the words, doctrine and dogma. As was explained to me yesterday...

Posted by Danny Garland Jr. to Dr. Eckleburg
On Religion 06/13/2007 8:22:30 PM PDT · 61 of 84

"It seems many people are confusing the terms "doctrine" and "dogma." Our Lady's maternal mediation (Mother of All Peoples with its three aspects) is an official doctrine of the Church. It is not yet a dogma. It is valid to debate whether it should or should not be a dogma, but one cannot debate whether it is already a doctrine of the Catholic Church."

I looked up "dogma" in the dictionary and the first definition of dogma is..."doctrine!" (exclamation point mine)

Likewise, under the entry for doctrine, it says -- SYNONYM: dogma.

According to the dictionary it seems the words have the exact same meaning, dogma having a Greek etymology while doctrine is derived from Latin.

I think this comes under the heading of "conveniently fabricated loophole."

87 posted on 06/14/2007 11:03:50 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Mary "immolated" Christ? What in the world does that mean?

sacrificed Him

88 posted on 06/14/2007 11:04:17 AM PDT by 1000 silverlings (Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

or “look over there!”, lol


89 posted on 06/14/2007 11:09:42 AM PDT by 1000 silverlings (Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.)
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To: 1000 silverlings; ears_to_hear; P-Marlowe; OLD REGGIE; HarleyD; blue-duncan; pjr12345
"Immolate" means "to sacrifice; to kill as a sacrifice."

So now we have the RCC asserting Mary sacrificed Jesus rather than God Almighty sacrificed Jesus.

I do not believe these words are chosen carelessly by the RCC. They know exactly what they're teaching. And it is blasphemy.

90 posted on 06/14/2007 11:16:59 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Yes, Mary has the power, Jesus is “the sacrificial victim”, ie powerless


91 posted on 06/14/2007 11:20:22 AM PDT by 1000 silverlings (Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

And it looks like “the church” in uniting with Mary, has the power


92 posted on 06/14/2007 11:23:25 AM PDT by 1000 silverlings (Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.)
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To: 1000 silverlings; fortheDeclaration
Not only is she the mother of God, she is God. They should just admit it

lol.

If "doctrine" and "dogma" can mean different things in the RCC, then so can the words, "Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God" (Deut. 5:9).

It's just a matter of time and semantics.

93 posted on 06/14/2007 12:25:59 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

The people “join with Mary”, so they’re all God now and every mass they take the Lord and offer Him up. It’s black arts, baby


94 posted on 06/14/2007 12:30:45 PM PDT by 1000 silverlings (Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.)
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To: 1000 silverlings

It is Christ who does the offering. Christ is both priest and victim. No other priest could offer such an offering, save the perfect Great High Priest that is Christ (cf. the Epistle to the Hebrews). Mary takes part in the offering by consenting to the immolation of her Son. She does not become God nor does she take God’s place. She is allowed to participate in this sacrifice by and through the power of Christ.

Christ is the Great High Priest who was predestined before all the world regardless of sin, who offers up the everlasting sacrifice of His Body and Blood at each Mass. We don’t offer Christ up at Mass, Christ offers Himself up continuously at the Mass through the priests who represent Him and who are empowered by Him.

I agree with Fr. Maximilian that we should return to the topic of this post, namely the eternal predestination of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, rather than bashing false assumptions of what the Catholic Church believes.

God Bless.


95 posted on 06/14/2007 12:56:10 PM PDT by Danny Garland Jr. (Ad Jesum per Mariam)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

In any case, that dog(ma) don’t hunt.


96 posted on 06/14/2007 1:03:53 PM PDT by pjr12345 (O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Romans 7:24)
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To: Danny Garland Jr.

Is your claim based on doctrine, dogma, or tradition? It sure isn’t based on Scripture.


97 posted on 06/14/2007 1:07:08 PM PDT by pjr12345 (O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Romans 7:24)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Thanks for that info from the RCC catechism. It's difficult to keep up with all the changing perspectives -- spoken, written, preached. It's never clear what Rome means at any given time.

Jesuit double-speak

98 posted on 06/14/2007 1:07:21 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration (We must beat the Democrats or the country will be ruined! - Lincoln)
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To: Danny Garland Jr.; Dr. Eckleburg; P-Marlowe; fortheDeclaration; GoLightly
Christ is first and foremost, not a victim. That alone is unbiblical. Christ does not "do the offering," as that too flies in the face of scripture and is unbiblical, as Hebrews states, He made one offering, one time, one time only, for that was all that was needed. To assert that He must be sacrificed forever is unscriptual as well as theologically un-Christian

Mary can consent to nothing, that too is unbiblical and usurps God the Father's role in the Plan of Salvation, contradicts Jesus, and is a manmade concept

All these posts have relevance to all that is being discussed, and it is biblical to let the light shine in on dark matters.

99 posted on 06/14/2007 1:19:41 PM PDT by 1000 silverlings (Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.)
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To: 1000 silverlings; HarleyD; topcat54; Gamecock; P-Marlowe; xzins; blue-duncan; Forest Keeper; ...
so they're all God now and every mass they take the Lord and offer Him up.

Exactly!

It comes down to the difference between imputed righteousness (Christ's righteous saves us) and infused righteousness (Christ's righteousness becomes us.)

The former is Scriptural; the latter is occultic. We do not become God. Till our death we remain human beings still not perfect, still susceptible to our sin nature.

However, as believing Christians redeemed by His blood, we are acquitted of those sins and judged blameless bfore God by His work on the cross.

"I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;

That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;

Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:

So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ." -- 1 Corinthians 1:4-8

The following essay could be posted as a thread...

JUSTIFICATION
the Article by which the Church Stands or Falls.


100 posted on 06/14/2007 1:24:56 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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