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To: Alex Murphy

What Fr. Maximilian Mary said that I meant is exactly what I meant to say. I don’t for one minute think that the Trinity is created, nor for that matter does Scotus.

The outline was pulled together from my notes for my Mariology II class last semester. The phrasing for “After willing the Trinity” is not something I came up with, but was what my professor(who also does not believe that the Trinity is created) mentioned was in Scotus’ account. I believe he was thinking of this section from Scotus:

“I say, nevertheless, that the Fall is not the cause of Christ’s predestination. Indeed, even if one angel had not fallen, or one man, Christ would still have been predestined thus—even if others had not been created, but only Christ. This I demonstrate thus: anyone who wills methodically first wills an end, and then more immediately, those things which are more immediate to the end. But God wills most methodically; therefore, He wills thus: first He wills Himself, and everything intrinsic to Himself; more directly, so far as concerns things extrinsic, is the soul of Christ. Therefore, in relation to whatever merit and before whatever dement was foreseen, He foresees that Christ must be united to Him in a substantial union...”

The “willing of himself” is meant I suppose in the way Fr. Maximilian Mary explained. Love is of the will and God loves Himself.

I also agree that this discussion should focus on the Incarnation of Christ and His Absolute Primacy and the implications thereof.

God Bless.


20 posted on 06/13/2007 1:37:04 PM PDT by Danny Garland Jr. (Ad Jesum per Mariam)
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To: Danny Garland Jr.; fr maximilian mary
The outline was pulled together from my notes for my Mariology II class last semester. The phrasing for “After willing the Trinity” is not something I came up with, but was what my professor(who also does not believe that the Trinity is created) mentioned was in Scotus’ account. I believe he was thinking of this section from Scotus:

"[edit]...anyone who wills methodically first wills an end, and then more immediately, those things which are more immediate to the end. But God wills most methodically; therefore, He wills thus: first He wills Himself, and everything intrinsic to Himself; more directly, so far as concerns things extrinsic, is the soul of Christ. Therefore, in relation to whatever merit and before whatever dement was foreseen, He foresees that Christ must be united to Him in a substantial union..."

Welcome to FR, Mr Garland!

Thank you for explaining the origins of the comment itself, providing some contextual info around it, and ultimately for clearing up my concerns. FWIW, I thought the material overall was excellent (and well-presented, BTW). I was troubled largely by that one phrase, and it's potential implications on understanding the rest of the material.

23 posted on 06/13/2007 1:44:42 PM PDT by Alex Murphy
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To: fr maximilian mary; Danny Garland Jr.; ArrogantBustard

Help me out here, are you trying to say that Jesus did not come to save sinners? St. Paul says “This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.” (1 Timothy 1:15)


116 posted on 06/14/2007 3:56:24 PM PDT by koinonia
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To: Danny Garland Jr.
I say, nevertheless, that the Fall is not the cause of Christ’s predestination. Indeed, even if one angel had not fallen, or one man, Christ would still have been predestined thus—even if others had not been created, but only Christ. This I demonstrate thus: anyone who wills methodically first wills an end, and then more immediately, those things which are more immediate to the end. But God wills most methodically; therefore, He wills thus: first He wills Himself, and everything intrinsic to Himself; more directly, so far as concerns things extrinsic, is the soul of Christ. Therefore, in relation to whatever merit and before whatever dement was foreseen, He foresees that Christ must be united to Him in a substantial union...”
The “willing of himself” is meant I suppose in the way Fr. Maximilian Mary explained. Love is of the will and God loves Himself.
I also agree that this discussion should focus on the Incarnation of Christ and His Absolute Primacy and the implications thereof.

Do you believe that God is all knowing? Do you believe that God has perfect foreknowledge?

If that is the case how could God NOT KNOW that men would fall?

162 posted on 06/15/2007 11:04:39 AM PDT by ears_to_hear
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