Posted on 06/15/2007 5:33:53 AM PDT by Between the Lines
As a result of this, our society is collapsing. And there is nothing we can do about it.
This is so very sad and, I'm afraid, so very true.
Well it’s in the New Testament, explain that away. You want to have more high priests, taking over Jesus’ role. They even take over Him. That is not biblical, nowhere in the NT. That priesthood is done away with in Jesus. You and the Mormons have the same kind of thing going on
Face it, no matter what you say, no matter what you do, some of them will twist it.
Their goal is the utter annihilation of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Period. Nothing short of that will satisfy them.
Not all of them. Some of them.
You can figure out the causes and implications of the position they take for yourself.
We know what a high priest is, we have one in Jesus. We don't need men pretending to be Jesus interceeding for us, or offering up "the divine victim".
Here's a bible passage you mightlike to read
Hebrews 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
7:17 For he testifieth , Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
7:20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)
7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever , hath an unchangeable priesthood.
7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
7:27 Who needeth not daily , as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.
Our great high priest is perfect, what do we need of yours. The daily sacrifices were cut off there is none. The Catholic church made up it's own traditions that have nothing to do with the bible or the work of Jesus
Trust me - you don't want to go down this path. The numbers cited in those two websites are an apples vs oranges comparison versus the Catholic church's own numbers as provided by your own U.S. Catholic Bishops. If you isolate the cases actually committed by clergy out of your examples, and then compare like-for-like with the numbers provided in the U.S. Catholic Bishops' "John Jay" study, it can be demonstrated that there are approximately four times as many Catholic priests and clergy who are sexually abusive, than the number of "Protestant" pastors guilty of the same.
I'm not saying that either set of statistics are inaccurate or deliberately falsified. I'm just saying that your numbers, if accepted at face value and if I've understood them properly, paint a far worse picture on the Catholic side than you're probably aware of.
I understand. It was what I made an effort to express in #114 on this thread.
The impetus to bring down the Church seems to be the foremost form of Christian witness for some.
I suspect there are very few Insurance Companies which handle the vast majority of insurance needs of all the Churches in the United States. (We see three companies covering most Protestant Churches. Probably fewer, or not many more, handle the Catholic Churches).
The surest way to determine the incidences and payouts is to find the premiums charged to these various Churches.
I pinged IMRight because I thought he might, with his vast knowledge and contacts, might be able to find these numbers. (Hi IM, how have you been?) :-)
In any event I believe the cost of insurance is a much better indicator of "incidences" and "payouts" than any of the articles thus far presented.
Can anyone help?
Ping to OLD REGGIE’s excellent suggestion in post #147.
The Priest is another Christ, and a mediator between God and men
1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
It seems like they have many Christ's as was prophesied :
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not.
And of course Mary and the Saints are also mediators between Christ and men.
Is no Catholic able to approach the throne of God for Himself?
Hbr 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
The only "complete" numbers I'm aware of are those provided by the U.S. Catholic Bishops' National Review Board, which collected data from 195 of the 202 dioceses in the USA, and showed that 95 percent of the dioceses and approximately 60 percent of religious communities had at least one case of sexual abuse over a 52 year period. It is an extraordinary study because it's not based on a statistical sampling, but rather on a comprehensive survey documenting responses for 97% of the Catholic diocesan priesthood.
There are simply no similar (comprehensive) studies available for other religious denominations or congregations; existing "studies" that I know of are either derived from statistical samplings (inclusive of non-clergy staff and unpaid volunteers, i.e. a broader range than just paid clergy), or are unqualified reports using unverifiable raw numbers. Of course, there may be something better out there that I'm not aware of.
Overall, I think using this "insurance claim" method may prove problematic to "match up" with the John Jay Study, but it's a much better start than what's been provided up until now.
We have no idea of how many are done in the Catholic church each year as they "self insure" on this and because many are homosexual and the young boys are reluctant to point at a "man of God" and then there is the fear of being seen as "gay" . And then there are the reported ones that are settled and swept under the carpet and the priest reassigned to where no one knows him and who can re-offend.
The question is not the sin of the offender it is the sin of the church that covers it up and allows them to escape the legal system and public scrutiny .
If these churches are reporting it to their insurance company you had better believe they have also revealed it to the congregation and the denomination and the police. The insurers would want to know that the man or woman had been removed from the insured employed before continuing coverage.
The difference is the Catholic church hides the sin , Protestants confront the sin and sinner as scripture orders.What is done in the dark is brought to the light !
bttt
Anyone interested in a factual and realistic depiction of the problem in the RCC should see the DVD, "Deliver Us From Evil."
Here's a long list of reviews now online...
Entertainment Weekly: Brilliant and psychologically transfixing documentary." Christian Science Monitor: "Most powerfully, Berg also films a number of O'Grady's victims as they recount their trauma and, in some cases, loss of faith." Philadelphia Inquirer: "Courageous, shattering and exceptional documentary." Seattle Post-Intelligencer: "A heartbreaking look at broken trust." Portland Oregonian: "As a study of a predator, "Evil" is fascinating and enraging." Chicago Reader: "The outrages of pedophile priests have generated screaming headlines but relatively little understanding of the Catholic culture that permitted and concealed such crimes, which makes this informed documentary by Amy Berg all the more valuable." The New York Times: "Neither sensationalistic nor sentimental, Ms. Berg's film is clear-sighted, tough-minded and devastating, a portrait of individual criminality and institutional indifference, a study in the betrayal of trust and the irresponsibility of authority." USA Today: "Deliver Us From Evil is so horrifying it makes "Texas Chainsaw Massacre" look like a walk in the park." The Globe and Mail (Toronto): "Another angry, searching document about pedophile priests, Deliver Us from Evil makes for unexpectedly gripping drama." Chicago Tribune: "Deliver Us From Evil has a few things wrong with it, including an egregious musical score, but without resorting to sucker punches, it takes your breath away while making your skin crawl." TV Guide: "The most infuriating revelation in Amy Berg's powerful documentary is the lengths to which current Los Angeles Cardinal Roger Mahoney and other church officials went to protect Father O'Grady and themselves, even though it meant knowingly delivering countless other children into a child molester's hands." New York Post: "This superb documentary about the Catholic Church's worst pedophile scandal is in many ways far scarier than any fiction." New York Daily News: "Amy Berg's riveting documentary, tracks O'Grady's predatory trail from San Andreas, Calif., to Ireland, where he is now living on a church pension that was apparently meant to buy his silence." Boston Globe: "It isn't often you get to meet the devil in all his glory, but here he is in Deliver Us From Evil, and his name is Father Oliver O'Grady." The Hollywood Reporter: "With an immediacy and intimacy that news reports can't provide, this deeply affecting documentary explores the pedophile crisis that has shaken the edifice of the Catholic Church." Variety: "So harsh and damning is the pic toward the current Catholic leadership -- personified by Los Angeles-based Cardinal Roger Mahony, who oversaw O'Grady's stewardship at various central California parishes in the 1970s and '80s, that charges the church operates "like the Mafia" sound spot-on." Village Voice: Berg by no means excuses Father O'Grady, but she offers evidence of a devastating childhood that explains his pathology. For the ambitious creeps who allowed him to indulge it, and who still sit in office, there's no excuse." San Francisco Chronicle: "The spellbinding power of this almost certain Oscar nominee for best documentary comes from its chilling subject matter." Washington Post: "Works best when it concentrates on O'Grady and the ever-rippling effect of his transgressions. Viewers may not remember the victims whose stories practically pierce the heart, but they're unlikely to forget O'Grady's deceptively innocent face."
The scenes of Cardinal Roger Mahoney's taped depositions are worth the price of the DVD or rental alone.
A major difference between sexual abuse in Protestant churches and in the RCC is that in the former, the accused ministers are taken out of the pulpit, investigated, and if proven guilty, they are dismissed.
In the RCC, offending priests are shuffled around under the cloak of night to other unsuspecting parishes where they continue to prey on children and families without end.
The question is not the sin of the offender it is the sin of the church that covers it up and allows them to escape the legal system and public scrutiny.
If these churches are reporting it to their insurance company you had better believe they have also revealed it to the congregation and the denomination and the police. The insurers would want to know that the man or woman had been removed from the insured employed before continuing coverage.
The difference is the Catholic church hides the sin , Protestants confront the sin and sinner as scripture orders.What is done in the dark is brought to the light !
AMEN!
Fact is that they and we start from contradictory premises. More than that, we do not ever share the same store of facts. They wish to limit the facts to what is contained in Scripture. Then they impose their own Reform tradition on those recorded events while refusing to admit that it IS tradition. Is it irony or paradox that we see evangelicals who repudiate much of the positive (Catholic) content of Luther’s thought or even the well-contructed theology of Calvin and by no means have digested the very excellent work of someone like Karl Barth, even the excellent work of some of the original Fundamentalists for ...what? Talking points that Bellarmine demolished more than four hundred years, whose force they avoid simply by abandone dthe common ground that Bellarmine claimed.
Maybe it's that anti-Scriptural defeatism that permits further atrocities and error to continue.
"Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war,
with the cross of Jesus going on before.
At the sign of triumph Satan's host doth flee;
On then, Christian soldiers, on to victory!
Hell's foundations quiver at the shout of praise;
brothers, lift your voices, loud your anthems raise..."
Crowns and thrones may perish,
kingdoms rise and wane,
but the church of Jesus constant will remain.
Gates of hell can never gainst that church prevail;
we have Christ's own promise, and that cannot fail."
LOLOL.
Wow! Great catch.
"He who controls the present, controls history." -- Orwell
AMEN!
Unless a belief is founded on Scripture, as yours clearly is, it isn't worth much. In fact, it's counter-productive.
Not really. The technical name for the college of priests is the presbyterate. (Just like the college of bishops is the episcopate and the college of deacons is the diaconate). 'Tis only a scandal to those who wish to find scandal wherever they can.
BTW, I hope that your eye is doing better.
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